Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Kirasu wrote:wow lore of heavens seems perfect for lizards now instead of.. half of the spells being fairly lame

skink priest with cloak of feathers and the one that pushes things back. .... insta gibing first turn please?

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

At least it's not like 8th Edition will be giving the enemy more dice to throw in shooting & magic, or start putting out more "Initiative Test or Die" / "Roll a die for each model" effects.

:( Bugger.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Hey, you strike before Saurus.

Because Orks on foot got the charge a lot in 7th right? You get to ATTACK BACK in 8th.. charging is no where near as good

Just tell yourself that over and over and then it wont be as bad.. Forget everything you know

Im really hoping they dont become the new daemons in 8th cause i have started collecting them because they look like a blast to play, and a lot of fun to paint.

Animosty seems really brutal, but in most of my orc units there will be a black orc hero or lord to slap them around if they roll a one. Seems like that lone will stop the army from being completely destroyed by animosity.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Hey, you strike before Saurus.

True, but that's because I play Empire, Dark Elves, and Chaos Warriors.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Seems to work fine in 40k?

whitedragon wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Seems to work fine in 40k?

When you can throw 40 attacks, sure. That's NOT going to happen in WHFB.

Kirasu wrote:Because Orks on foot got the charge a lot in 7th right?

If you timed it right? Yes. Orcs could still either screen like the Pro's (what with some 60pt Fast Cav units that force the enemy to charge or sit there for several turns while 125mm of frontage is barred from their path), as well as a Waaagh (which more often than not would at least be a 50% chance of success, with 66% of the time being able to charge further than a M5 unit and 33% a M6). Often times, it became vital as well due to either having just a Big Boss & Mooks in the unit (who were I3 and 2, and thus would go last against many enemies and tie / go before a slim few) and the fact that they lacked armor to survive counter-blows - they had to rely on wounds to get anything approaching a favorable combat resolution (which, barring a lucky Shaga's General or a nearby chariot, would often mean only a two or three advantage).

Kirasu wrote:You get to ATTACK BACK in 8th.. charging is no where near as good

Attacking back is bad for Orcs.

I'm going to explain this one more time, because a lot of people (not just you) seem to be misunderstanding.

Standard Orc Protocol is to charge in or at least attempt to do such, the only exceptions being Night Goblins (who are solely meant to be as close to an "anvil" that O&G can manage) and some runs of Choppa & Shield Boyz (who are often run as the anvil in smaller games due to a higher natural leadership or in Wyvern lists where the General won't be near the ladz). When they charge, they look to get at least a good 2-4 wounds. The reason for this is two-fold: One, it gives them an additional 2-4 points of combat resolution (provided they used Two Choppas). Second, it denies the enemy two-to-four attacking models against them, thus denying most likely 1-4 (depending on the type of enemy) wounds being dished back. Orcs, after the first round of combat, lose their one advantage (above-normal strength) against regular troops, as well as - if they were chargers - their striking first.

Attacking back, even with an extra 6-10 models (another 1-3 wounds on average, depending on frontage and Big 'Un status), does not help the Orcs as they're still taking all those extra wounds. Orcs are not like Dwarves, Saurus, or Chaos Warriors: They can't expect to put out a parity of wounds for what they suffer, or even (in the Chaos Warrior case) come out on top. The Orcs can - with each side making full swings - expect to break even at best due to a combination of Lack of Psychology aid (no Hatred / Primal Fury), lack of Weapon Skill (meaning they often need 4's to hit, and in turn are being hit on 3's), a single attack base (As opposed to a Saurus' two, which can make up for their lack of WS), and a lack of an armor save (In order to get two attacks a model, and thus not have an average front only cause about 1-2 wounds on a charge pre-saves, they need to sacrifice all but a 6+ save). With all those combined, Orcs - usually - require either multiple standard characters (Big Boss and BSB, for instance), one good character (Shaga Sword general within 12" of at least two enemy characters), or - more often than not - striking before the enemy to the point that they can negate the number of attacks back so as to deny wounds against them.

Orcs in hand-to-hand can't ignore their wounds just like they can shooting, as every one they're inflicted is another hit (one-to-two models) and wound (now two-to-four) they must inflict to break even again. Since they have a low base Leadership (7, and 8 when with a Hero), if they lose by even one or two points what another army (Dwarves, Lizardmen, Elves, Skaven w/ Ranks) might consider small ("Oh no, I now have to test on Ld 7"), an Orc considers very bad ("I lost by two, I need a five or less to hold"). Since ranks will now (likely) be counted at the end of a combat round as well, it's very likely that - after the enemy's counter attacks - they will now be the ones who have more Ranks and are stubborn. Meaning that either the Orcs will win, but have to go up against a Leadership 8 or 9 Stubborn block (due to the fact that Orcs will be much easier to whittle down via shooting than whatever the Orcs are firing at), or the Orcs will lose against them and be testing on numbers that might have less than a 2/3 chance on a single die, let alone two.

This can be worked around, but the problem is not that Orcs need to change what makes them good so much as change their army to make them useable.

Minsc wrote:Second, it denies the enemy two-to-four attacking models against them, thus denying most likely 1-4 (depending on the type of enemy) wounds being dished back. Orcs, after the first round of combat, lose their one advantage (above-normal strength) against regular troops, as well as - if they were chargers - their striking first.

But now this isn't true, even if they did strike first. They still wouldn't be denying any attacks back.

And moreover, you're ignoring their potential staying power with the stubborn rules for large units, the parry rule, and the rules for a general within 12". I think a big block of boyz - the way they were intended to be played - will be fiercely competitive.

Scottywan82 wrote:But now this isn't true, even if they did strike first. They still wouldn't be denying any attacks back.

Pretty much. And when most of the Orc combat resolution comes from the static 5 (or as close as you can manage after being fired at for a few turns with Tzeentchian Wizards / Elvish Bolt Throwers / Empire and Dwarvish Cannons / Wood Elf Archery Spam) and combat res wounds (instead of, say, magic banners or special rules), and you can only be expected to cause about one wound for every three (Big 'Un) to four (Boy) attacks on a one-attack model (pre-saves, with the enemy often being better off in terms of to hit and / or armor), it doesn't help to give their enemies even more attacks.

Scottywan82 wrote:And moreover, you're ignoring their potential staying power with the stubborn rules for large units, the parry rule, and the rules for a general within 12". I think a big block of boyz - the way they were intended to be played - will be fiercely competitive.

The problem being that Blocks o' Boyz are going to have a merry ol' time going through a shooting & magic phase while keeping more ranks (well, if they're Big 'Uns). Boyz can get more ranks relatively easily, it being only about 246pts for a 6x6 block of Vanilla Boyz w/ full command. Big 'Uns, however, aren't going to be fielded in large numbers because a unit at roughly the same cost (250pts) with full command is some 14 less Boyz, with the same gear and unit upgrades. While 36 T4 5+ saves can likely reach combat (especially with the free reform) and start with some full three ranks, standard, and outnumber, the 22 Big 'uns are much less likely to reach having the exact same durability.

Regular Boyz can get stubborn relatively easily if spammed, but then they can't be expected to kill anything with 1 WS3 S3(4) attack apiece. They'll be able to anvil the enemy for several turns (especially if you were a cheesy git and bought Gorbad), provided the "one turn combat" thing is finally nailed in the coffin, but they won't win any of their combats. Now, while winning isn't everything for a single combat, spending some 250-300pts on several Orc Boyz units with the sole purpose of being there to die isn't exactly a fun thing.

The "Parry" rule doesn't particularly make the Orc Boyz any more durable, either: You could instead just buy some Savage Orcs, and suddenly you have that magical 6+ ward but now against everything. Actually, this edition will probably be great for Savage Orcs now that I think about it. Not great in that they're going to be good, but in that they won't be worse than regular Boyz now: The 6+ Ward means they're on-par with most Orc Boyz against S4 or better foes in hand-to-hand, they can't be charge-baited as easily with somewhere between Ld7 and Ld10 now (depending on if you have a special character, level of general, and so on) that must be lost to be forced forward, and get a few more of the very vital attacks for an Orc's combat resolution. Theoretically, blocks of regular boyz should quickly begin to phase out to armies of Gorbad-led Savage Orcs.

We were just looking at orc armies for 8th, and two of us are thinking of bringing them back out. Quite a few things available now, that didn't used to work as well.

Cheap orc blocks with 30+ boyz. Quite happy I have 3 of those equipped with spears. Lots of dispell dice with the staff of sneaky stealing and the banner that gives you 3 dispel dice.

Cheap war engines are now plentiful as well, now that you don't have to worry about special slots.

Overall, I'm just happy to be able to toss the army back on the table and use the 6k points of them that I own.

mikhaila wrote:We were just looking at orc armies for 8th, and two of us are thinking of bringing them back out. Quite a few things available now, that didn't used to work as well.

Cheap orc blocks with 30+ boyz. Quite happy I have 3 of those equipped with spears. Lots of dispell dice with the staff of sneaky stealing and the banner that gives you 3 dispel dice.

Cheap war engines are now plentiful as well, now that you don't have to worry about special slots.

Overall, I'm just happy to be able to toss the army back on the table and use the 6k points of them that I own.

Wow... I havent read the 8th ed book yet but I was talking to people last night about making a new OnG list for it and literally thought up the same things... 40 Orc Boyz units with big bossess (black orc of coarse!) in each and 4+ catapults? I think we threw Gorbad in there for the better leadership or something... Shall be so much fun to see 160-200 orcs on the table!

Kinda OT but I'm looking to get into Fantasy with this edition.

I'm looking at Dwarves, HE, WoC or O&G. I've read the rumors and have skimmed the army books but don't know enough about said armies to make any decisions.

I know I should look at what appeals the most and all those armies looks wise do so what of those 4 will seem to work best/easiest to learn to play in 8th?

Fateweaver wrote:Kinda OT but I'm looking to get into Fantasy with this edition.

I'm looking at Dwarves, HE, WoC or O&G. I've read the rumors and have skimmed the army books but don't know enough about said armies to make any decisions.

I know I should look at what appeals the most and all those armies looks wise do so what of those 4 will seem to work best/easiest to learn to play in 8th?

Until we have the book in our hands and know the new rules and playtest some, that question cannot be answered

I was just asking hyperbollically assuming rumors are true. I know it's a snafu to do so, just wanted more, if anything, opinions.

Basing decisions off of what we give you which is completely speculation and rumors, would be useless.

Well, not completely useless- some rumors are a pretty sure thing.

HE are a smart bet right now, since they'll be in the starter box!!! With a griffon! Yes!

I'm begging you- if anyone gets a look at the book before July 15th, can you double check the "need banners to claim objectives" rumor? Absolutely killing me...

(I'm looking at you, mikhaila )

I should be able to look at it for you RItides if I remember.

RiTides wrote:Well, not completely useless- some rumors are a pretty sure thing.

HE are a smart bet right now, since they'll be in the starter box!!! With a griffon! Yes!

I'm begging you- if anyone gets a look at the book before July 15th, can you double check the "need banners to claim objectives" rumor? Absolutely killing me...

(I'm looking at you, mikhaila )

I'll have my book this coming week, and even be able to talk about it! GW guaranteed I'd have it by June 15th, so I expect it a bit earlier. I'll take a look as soon as I can at the new missions. My impression of the random effects on terrain was that it would be doubtful at best that you'd roll for effects for the scenery. While random and fun, I can see it adding 30 minutes to a tournament game dealing with them. Scenarios I'll be checking to see if they are even usable in a tourney enviorment. Hope so.

That is what is drawing me to Dwarves right now. Sure the BFSP rules will be no good in 4-5 weeks but that is a good deal for how many minis a person gets.

Though I do like magic and unfortunately dwarves don't have any magic, per se.

Dwarves do have an advantage next edition, in that I'm pretty sure it's a special rule that they get +2 DD by default, and I think the Rune Priests get +1 DD under their own rule instead of "Like a Level 1 wizard" to the DD, which would mean that they pool DD just as readily as they would this edition.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Hey, you strike before Saurus.

and almost everyone gets their full attacks as stepping up is changing.

Horde armies across the board are going to be better. The rules almost exclusively favor Rank and File ground and pound time builds from what I can tell.

Any armies that take a lot of RnF will benefit.

Orks, Skaven, Humans, to some degree will all be terrifying armies.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Hey, you strike before Saurus.

and almost everyone gets their full attacks as stepping up is changing.

A lot of people don't seem to get that "everyone gets their full attacks" and "you get to fight with more ranks" is terrifying in a bad way for several armies.

Sounds good, Karon and mikhaila! I'm looking forward to putting the rumor days behind me, and knowing the facts

You and me both, haha. I don't even like to think about the possible implications of some of these changes for my beastmen....ugh.

Minsc wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:O&G are screwed if strict Initiative order is the rule of the day. Toughness 4 won't get you very far if everyone else is faster and better and you have no armor. Not to mention what Animosity can do.

Hey, you strike before Saurus.

and almost everyone gets their full attacks as stepping up is changing.

A lot of people don't seem to get that "everyone gets their full attacks" and "you get to fight with more ranks" is terrifying in a bad way for several armies.

I think its more or less that horde armies will be 10 wide (more models attacking) and getting horde rule (which is another attacking rank? more attacks?) 3 10wide ranks is pretty ridiculous.. I could be wrong, I havent read through rumors in a while.

Buttlerthepug wrote:
I think its more or less that horde armies will be 10 wide (more models attacking) and getting horde rule (which is another attacking rank? more attacks?) 3 10wide ranks is pretty ridiculous.. I could be wrong, I havent read through rumors in a while.

Horde is stupidly easy to counter, however, so long as the "must remain in base or catty-corner" remains. At least, for 25mm or above armies (Orcs & Beastmen). 20mm is where the cheese for Horde will be at.

At 25mm: Six wide front with a 20mm unit, or a five wide front with 25mm. First cuts twelve attacking models out of the picture, second cuts nine out of the picture. Or, pretty much, most of that third rank (or all of it, in 20mm case). It's the 20mm's that can abuse the rule most readily, especially stuff like Black Guard and Phoenix Guard.