Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

still, that's 250 points for 10 3+/2++, stubborn, S6, storm-bolter armed space marines! they will destroy most MEQ armies (outnumbered 16 to 25, but alot better) and most IG armies (ID'ing everyone, AP5 all round). paying 9 more points per model to have a storm bolter, ECCW, +2S, stubborn, 2++? c'mon.

Hasn't it been rumored that stormtroopers will be retinue unless a SC is taken? *CoughCorteazCoughhackdie*

And to the above, I thought S6 was removed... And I can see them becoming more expensive, but slightly more versatile...

ah. oh well. they're still OP enough for me to do apoc.
I'll be doing a pure GK army (aside from an inquisitor- I like the fluff).

GKs also have Stormbolters. Infantry really arn't where GKs have had problems in the past.

All those power weapons are utterly wasted on dirt cheap minis and cc specialists like orks, IG, wytches and pretty much everything that doesnt cost anything, is fearless or has high Ld and doesnt get armour saves.

I wonder now if PAGKs will now be the ultimate anti MEQ infantry squad, what will there be that is good against tanks, monstrous creatures and dirt cheap hordes.
If a 100p dread or wraithlord can kill a 250p GK unit or a 60p wych squad can tie up the same GK unit in melee there has to be other toys and specialist units hidden in the DH codex

I agree, GK seem to be shaping up to neutralize anything MeQ while AT still remains their problem... Though standard storm bolters may have a CHANCE if they get rending... I doubt it though.

Hopefully the 2++ save is an over exaggerated rumour. A lot of these rumoured rules are sounding somewhat “cheesey” and are most likely over exaggerated rumours. Otherwise GK is set to take the Crown of Cheese away from BA.

With a 2++ save combat res. wounds shouldn't be a problem assuming GK's get Fearless (or run and get caught in the SA leading to combat res. saves).

The best way to kill GK's is going to be weight of attacks or shots. 2++ or 3++ rerolling is only going to go so far.

Hopefully the 2++ save is an over exaggerated rumour. A lot of these rumoured rules are sounding somewhat “cheesey” and are most likely over exaggerated rumours. Otherwise GK is set to take the Crown of Cheese away from BA.

Never mind the rules, its all about point cost!
No matter how OP something sounds, it can still be pretty damn useless if it is overpriced.

Take a look at jumppack vanguard squads or legion of the damned squads, on paper they sound like game breakers but the point cost they have make them outright useless.

Just Dave wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I'd have to agree, but Mr Kelly isn't perfect by any means. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Rune Priests and Long Fangs say so.

Yeah, he's their best by far.

As far as 'better units' in each dex, if I was writing a dex I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Like the article someone posted earlier (Which was excellent by the way, thanks to whomever posted it!) pointed out, there will always be top/middle/bottom tier aspects of each codex (Or in game design). It's simply inevitable. However, what Kelly does do well is;

Get the background right
Match the units to the background
Match themes to the units/background
Make almost all the choices viable (No garbage tier, simply lower-higher)


His books are fun to read, fun to play and fun to tinker with. Take the Wolf dex.....it's the ultimate counts as dex. Why? Because you can tinker all damn day with the thing! Thundercav heavy, Wolf Guard Heavy, GH Heavy, Long Fang Heavy, etc etc. Just a damn fun dex to play (against and with). Themes abound and the codex lets you use your imagination. Fun first, everything else after.

You are correct good sir, however not everyone sees things by the perspective of Fun First, everything else after and will therefore abuse any 'flaws' within said Codex.
None the less, what I was getting at was that Phil Kelly is good, but he's not perfect. But as you said "their best by far"

Totally agree. What many people don't get is that tournament players comprise only a very small % of GW's customer base,on the whole. Most of their customers play for fun in a casual environment,and that is the customer base they cater to. That's not to say that they don't drop dud codices every now and again,but they do seem to be dropping a lot fewer completely and totally uncompetitive codices since 5th.

The "tournament players are only a small % of the customers" point may be true, but it's no excuse for GW not striving for game balance first and foremost, because good (not perfect, necessarily, but good) game balance is a fundamental principle of good game design, and benefits both hardcore competitive players and "fun" players.

If anything, having a balanced game is even more vital to casual gamers than to tournament players. If a tournament player buys an army, and a new codex is released for it, rendering it no longer competitive, he can just sell the army and move on to a different one; he has no personal attachment to it. If a casual player's army is rendered near-obsolete by a poor codex release, he's probably stuck with it for 5-10 years, or leaves the hobby in disgust because GW have ruined the game for him; he doesn't ever *really* want to get rid of his lovingly painted and modelled, perfectly fluffy army, but when he does, you can bet he's not coming back to "the hobby".

BOLS Rumour roundup, Mostly stuff we have heard before.. A couple of newiesh tidbits in there if you search.

Today we have a couple of summaries rounded up from the Lounge:


via Lerra:

"The GK codex has been finalized and is currently at the printers.

There is a unit in the codex called a "Dreadknight" which is basically a psychically-infused super-terminator that counts as a monstrous creature. It looks sort of like a penitent engine but better. It has a Dreadnought CCW, lots of wounds and 2+ save.

The codex looks like it's pretty sick and will be on par with the Space Wolves for overall power. Terminators can be made troops by a special character. GKs lose fearless and gain ATSKNF. Power Armor Grey Knights get squad-based psychic powers, including a power that is like Hammerhands. There is also a squad-based psychic power that increase the strength of their storm bolters to 5.

Terminators have 2 wounds and come with a 4+ invulnerable save."
~We hear those 2-wound termys are a seperate unit from the standard 1-wound ones.

via darklink


"yep cortez can make henchmen troops, so you can get stormtroopers but they are now bs3 and not nearly as good. crusaders with a marine cost and coming with a pw and ss is much more attractive.

the other real winner for henchmen are the humans that come with bolters for 5pts or storm bolters for 7pts at bs 3

other troops are the palidan termies with 2 wounds and a 5++ and can get fnp with the apothicary

pergitor squads with all the extra special weapons can become troops too.

vindicar assassin is 0-3 and have the special rounds that are quite nasty
4d6+rend vs. armor
wound on a 2+
take inv save away for the rest of the game

loses his night fight rule but still has stealth.

psy cannons are str 7 with rending

drednight with gattiling psy cannon is only str 5 but 12 shots.

the palidan termies do not have EW.

havent read into the special chars much yet as i havent had time. but ill have a chance after x-mas.

some weapons that are new for the gk
sword that grants +2 str
halbriad that grants +2 int
one more but don't remember.

playtesting the gk the army with full squads of crusader humans and assassins in a crusader will wipe most things in one assault phase, which i can see lots of people taking. I can also see lots of people running the bolter/SB spam since they are dirt cheep.

the basic grey knights top out at 20 pts little more for the justicar.

there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.

stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.\

the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.

normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex. "

Looks like my 'counts as' Alpha Legion Operatives force is a go go!

Alpharius wrote:Looks like my 'counts as' Alpha Legion Operatives force is a go go!

As an Alpha Legion fan myself, I think your idea has serious merit...

Can't wait to see the 'dex when it comes out.....looks very promising!

...Dreadknight....

...sounds...

AWESOME!

If it has a model I will buy it.

Is the 2+ str swords and 2+ ini halberds a new rumour? Because so far I havent heard of it, but always wished for it.

I can just imagine having a good mix so you can overpower most enemy units by A) striking first with your power weapons, and if that doesnt completely topple them B) hammering them with str 6 power weapons. Very enticing

Tis my hope this rumour is true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could even taylor your list accordingly! If your up against Orks, take the halberd models you have so their furious charge is downgraded from matching space marine initative to loosing against it anyway. You could seriously deter ork hordes with storm bolter and ini 6!


*wipes tear away*

Most orks dont get to I4 anyway - Theyre I2 base. Only Nobs get to I4, and you mostly see them with PKs....

Init 6 would hurt eldar the most, as they have a lot of I5 stuff.

candy.man wrote:Hopefully the 2++ save is an over exaggerated rumour. A lot of these rumoured rules are sounding somewhat “cheesey” and are most likely over exaggerated rumours. Otherwise GK is set to take the Crown of Cheese away from BA.

I hope they don't go cheesy, but I always thought SW were as cheesy.
cheese BA:
dropping LR's
dreads clinging onto mini-thunderhawks

cheese SW:
superhumans riding giant wolves
longfangs

I doubt this 2++ thing. then what's the point of the 3+? I would've thought the re-roll would be fairer. against bolters:

re-rolling:
2 in 3 hit, 1 in 2 wound, 1 in 6 dead.
2++:
2 in 3 hit, 1 in 2 wound, 1 in 6 dead.

but when it comes to LC's...
re-rolling.
2 in 3 hit, 5 in 6 wound, 1 in 1 dead.
2++
2 in 3 hit, 5 in 6 wound, 1 in 6 dead.

The odds of a model failing a rerolling 3+ is 1/9, not 1/6.

is it? oh. I stand corrected. 2++ is still too OTT to be believable IMO.

Yet 3++ SS terminators seemed unbelievable at one point.

1/3 chance of failure (first roll) x 1/3rd chance of failure (reroll) = 1/9 chance of failure from any one armour save.

yes, but still- troops having the best possible save?
apart from ghazghkull magaret thatcher, what unit has a 2++? I've heard something about Sevrin Loth having one as a psy power, that may or may not be true...

Eh, sisters can go 2++ with their Faith-witch-magic. Even their troops can reach 3++. I find the 2+invulnerable easier to believe than the 2+ rerollable save rumor.

Just Dave wrote:I'd have to agree, but Mr Kelly isn't perfect by any means. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Rune Priests and Long Fangs say so.

HERESY... these aren't broken they let me win

Yet 3++ SS terminators seemed unbelievable at one point.

We have what is basically a dark eldar IC with 11 attacks and a super HQ with 2++ as well as the flying nun of doom (the canoness with almost constant 2++ and S6 power weapon).

Perhaps the PAGK good armour save will be offset with a vulnerability tp power weapons and AP negating shooting.
Doesnt matter that much if it takes 9 bolter wounds to down one GK when a 5p plasmacannon kills of 100p of GKs in one shot.

Same goes for the TAGKs, wonder if all units will get access to the 3++ SS. Mixing in 3++ in termie squads is what makes them powerful.
I dont care how OP they are in melee etc if a lousy plasmagun can decimate half a TAGK squad, not to mention demolisher shots.

Lets hope the power, survivability and point costs are all balanced to work well together.

Hmm... Halberds with +2 Initiative sound nice, and the old NFW, being the sword, with +2 Strength sounds cool too... Now I just wonder what the third one is. I'm still holding out for the Nemesis Force Mace/Flail...

Maybe an additional amount of attacks added? Or maybe channeling of Psychic Powers via this weapon? Sounds fun, and I hope my Grey Knights have some leigh-weigh in customobility, but if GW does include the Force Mace/Flail, I will literaly jump for joy, and model an entire squad with them as a testament to my love for the weapon

Ian Sturrock wrote:The "tournament players are only a small % of the customers" point may be true, but it's no excuse for GW not striving for game balance first and foremost, because good (not perfect, necessarily, but good) game balance is a fundamental principle of good game design, and benefits both hardcore competitive players and "fun" players.

If anything, having a balanced game is even more vital to casual gamers than to tournament players. If a tournament player buys an army, and a new codex is released for it, rendering it no longer competitive, he can just sell the army and move on to a different one; he has no personal attachment to it. If a casual player's army is rendered near-obsolete by a poor codex release, he's probably stuck with it for 5-10 years, or leaves the hobby in disgust because GW have ruined the game for him; he doesn't ever *really* want to get rid of his lovingly painted and modelled, perfectly fluffy army, but when he does, you can bet he's not coming back to "the hobby".

I understand what you're saying,and agree with most of it. However,there really hasn't been a codex that's dropped in 5th that's completely uncompetitive in the casual playing environment. I think the last codex they've done that's totally uncompetitve in a casual environment is the 4th edition Dark Angels codex.

Pagk s6 or i6 with a storm bolter=no problem

Pagk s4 with power weapons/storm bolter>20 points, so any reports of that combo for 20 points a model need a big grain of salt.

Pagk with s6 power weapons for 20 points is best described as delusional. Every tournament list would spend 1200 points on 60 of them and all other meq lists would be unplayable. Top tier armies would only consist of ig and grey knights. Codex creep creates a lot of monsters, but none have ever been that under priced.

the 2++ save item is 100% real.

it does cost 35 points and is wargear for the justicar. armys that can snipe individual models will have a chance to remove it.


that dreadknight sounds stupid and i can say is most likely false.


PAGKs are no longer Str6 base. they are Str4 Force weapon and Stormbolter base. Str6 is an upgrade for the whole squad. they probably end up about the same price they are now with that upgrade(20 pts to 25)


ISTs are unlocked by a Special Character only. Inquisitors take them as Retinue.


Stormravens are FA.

Interesting - so I can still model and field and Alpha Legion Operative army... excellent!

thanks for the confirmation!
my hypothetical army:
GK grand master ~150
Inquisitor ~100
henchmen ~100
10 TAGK ~500
20 PAGK (all 2++ and S6) ~500
dreadnought ~100
stormraven ~200
stormraven ~200
dreadnought ~100
~2000pt army