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In that sense similar to evil suns who are supposed to be speed loving but trait helps more the slower the unit is...

If you play a servitor manipel with one unit of 8 breacher, would you use servitors and master of biosplicing? Is it worth? In all games i did, it only worked one time =/

So these are my IH matchups, ranked in order of decreasing threat to us:

Executioner: If they go first, and there's bad terrain, you're dead.
Flying Circus: Basically the new Eldar flyers, backed by unkillable artillery.
Ven Dreads: Extremely frustrating because it's non-interactive as hell. (Decided to move this down. The Flying Circus is probably more threatening.)
Impulsor Spam: Scary only because I am unlikely to win the objectives game against this sort of list, so I have to gun them down.
Levi Dread: Super overrated.

The Executioner list is such an extreme list, that I find it hard to prepare against. Perhaps it is cold comfort, but the other SM chapters are super strong and have equal matchups against IH, which cannot prep against them all.

Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights are all going to have a hard time adjusting. All of the Space Marine lists are spamming the crap out of AA and CC. The meta lists just auto lose against IH, and they are unfavored against WS, RG, and UM as well. Orks, AdMech, 1K Sons, and Chaos are probably the least hurt by the changes.

@Hesselhof
In my experience, unless you are going to really commit to it, the immortal Kataphrons concept is not worth it. Just use the Maniple for the +1 to hit and 5++.

Thx for sharing your experience

Ya thats my thougts on the kataphrons too, thx for the confirmation ^^

I was talking to Ceanndach on Reddit a few days ago, and he had an interesting idea to bring a Bastion.

Took a shot at making a list:

Basically, you hide all of your infantry inside the Bastion or Duneriders. Then you pop out and melt people.

Reminds me of Scout Bunker from the 7E days. (For newer people, you used to be able to infiltrate buildings, then slingshot units with the Escape Hatch.)

I am not sure if this strategy would work better as 100% Mars though. You can probably squeeze in another Dunerider by dropping the Dominus. And you would basically be doing Elimination Volley instead of Plasma Specialists and Mindlock.

Thoughts?

Not my sytle a list should look like =/

Also i am still not a friend of mixed detachments.

Why a Bastion though? Wouldn't a bunker suffice or is the +1 T/8W and the bolters worth the price of admission?

 Thairne wrote:
Why a Bastion though? Wouldn't a bunker suffice or is the +1 T/8W and the bolters worth the price of admission?

More firing ports and higher capacity as well. Of note, you can't just cram a bunch of random units in there though. It can take 1 Infantry unit and any number of Infantry characters I believe. So no plugging in 4 units of 5 Rangers w/ 2 snipers each. I thought about that. Hilariously you could try 3x Ranger snipers and 3x Vindicaires though.

Actually, the provided reasoning was that the Bastion is large enough to hide your Robots behind and block LOS from Knights, flyers, and such.

This being said, I am not sure if I want to get a bastion just for this though. Maybe kitbash one. I always wanted to do a 40k take on Howl's Moving Castle. (As a conversion for a Plasma Obliterator. Haha.)

The two lists I am deciding between right now:
Dakkabots with triple Grators, Ryzaphrons, Stygies Dragoon Bomb. Gangbuster favorites.

Dakkabots with triple Grators, Stygies Dragoon Bomb backed by Hoplites in boats. Basically, hammer and shooty anvil.

Unless that IH Flyer spam becomes a thing, in which case I go back to the old list before this mad rush to cram Robots back in started:

The second list ist pretty tasty =) nice one

We had a player with the bastion at our Alliance Open North West GT last weekend. Did not finish in the top 40 so...no. Best AdMech player dropped after day 1. His list is:

Servitor Maniple
TPD
TPE
5 Breacher
5 Breacher
10 Vanguard
Datasmith
Sevitors
Hoplites
Hoplites
Dunerider
Dunerider
2 Dakkabots
2 Icarus Onager

TPM
Daedalosus
Ranger 2 Arq
Ranger 2 Arq
Ranger 2 Arq
Grator
Grator
Grator

I like the list. With some changes I will play it at the major in amsterdam in november. Id switch the dakkastelans and the datasmith to dragoons and take 1 large unit of breacher.

for your lists suzu: i really dont think Plastroyers are worth anything anymore. They are fragile and die if you dont get first turn and the output... id doubt that they would kill an IH vehicle.
Personally I dont think i will go for dakkabots.They wont help me in most matchups i dont think. Id rather go for more melee punch. Against decent GSC players they are basically a very expensive screen unit if that. I like the last list you posted though i am still not a fan of a drill with plasmadudes...but since you love them so much roll with them

I do agree that the first list relies a bit too much on going first. And yeah, Kataphrons are too fragile in this meta now. It was one thing when everyone was prepping for T3-4 infantry, but now everyone is prepping for T4-5 infantry and bikes.

The Dakkabots are the only thing I can think of that can handle the large variety of possible IH threats. Mortal wound spam is just incredibly advantageous now.

Dropping a unit of souped up Plasma Calivers with a giant Drill with a melta deals an incredible amount of damage. Especially when paired with mortal wounds spamming Infiltrators.

The third list is feeling a bit obsolete. It's prepping for a meta that may no longer be there. Tau and Eldar are both definitely going to evolve to handle Space Marines better.

The Triptide list, for example, just auto-loses to most IH lists, since it's an army built around Burst Cannons. I expect to see Ghostkeels, Fusion Crisis Suits, maybe even Yvahras.

As for Eldar, I think it's going to depend a lot on Psychic Awakening, but the flyer spam list is hard-countered by all of the AA spamming going on.

Speaking of which, did you all hear that ITC rules now forbid flying vehicles from standing atop Ruins unless their flying base (or hull, if there is no flying base) fits entirely on it without overlapping other bases?

 Suzuteo wrote:
I do agree that the first list relies a bit too much on going first. And yeah, Kataphrons are too fragile in this meta now. It was one thing when everyone was prepping for T3-4 infantry, but now everyone is prepping for T4-5 infantry and bikes.

Thats slightly annoying to read as I finish off more breachers so I can run 3 squads of 4, I totally agree that plasmaphrons usually melt turn 1 if I don't go first getting my no output but I'm hoping that 3 breachers agripinna squads will at least divide in coming fire a bit. I do want to try experimenting with deep striking fistellans, three of them showing up and getting into the middle of a castle or armies back lines might be fun.

@Agamembar
You should have seen how mad I was when they nerfed infiltration as I was painting my 3x Drills.

But to be fair, EVERYONE is sort of in the same bind. A lot of IH lists are going to be bringing 3 Stormtalons. This is 6x S5 AP-2 D1 and 12x S6 AP-2 D1 shots, hitting on 2s with RR1s. Fist lists are probably just going to spam the crap out of bolt rifles and heavy bolters as well. T6-7 is going to be the new T4-5.

Anyhow, Breachers still work. They just aren't as ridiculous as they used to be. People are upgunning their armies to deal with Aggressors and such.

What nerf to infiltration?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
What nerf to infiltration?

stygies used to let you "deepstrike" before the game. You could basically deploy a drill 9" away, then on your turn, disembark + move it 1.01" away for a guaranteed charge.

Oh that.
Yeah and now its a useless 9" movement.

Well, it's only useless if your opponent is not going to try to control the midboard at all. Or if you are in a short deployment. But yeah, definitely less powerful. Especially now that everyone and their mom has Scouts.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh that.
Yeah and now its a useless 9" movement.

i mean, you still get a turn one charge reliably enough if you slingshot a transport. I've been having decent success with infiltrating two skorpius filled with fulgurites, advancing a manipulus to give bonus movement after the disembark and then charging in. It basically gives you (9" + 3" + 6" + 1") 19" of movement with your fulgurites. On half the deployments, that means youre already in their deployment zone and in the rest it means you need to make a 5" charge.

Assuming opponent deploys exactly on the line. In my experience they deploy more like 3-4" away if they are going to start second. As a MINIMUM.

That is where your superior shooting comes into play. And if you go second, you will be deployed further back so they have to come forward.

Really, the point is that if the opponent does not shoot your melee first turn, they will be up in their business the next turn. We don't get to totally bomb them like the old infiltrate, but it's not as useless as feared.

That being said, Scouts might make me eat my words. Makes me wonder if I should drop Dragoons for a third transport with Fulgurites in them. They gobble up Scouts and become unkillable.

So this is what I am thinking:
Stygies Bat
TPD
TPM
8 Breacher
Vanguard
Vanguard
Servitors
4 Dragoons
3 Dunerider

Stygies Bat
Dadalosus
TPE (omnimask)
Ranger 2 Arq
Ranger 2 Arq
Ranger 1 Arq
3 Grators

Mixed Bat
Graia TPE
Hoplites
Hoplites
10 Mars Infis

11 pts left (so 2 tethers for the hoplites) you could swap 1 dunerider and the breacher for 1 Dragoon and 2 Icarus though.

Oh interesting. No Crawlers, but boatspam instead. Probably the right move. We can't bring enough Crawlers to overcome 2-3 Executioners anyway. (We would need like 4-8 to do that.)

I think your last detachment is a Vanguard, by the way.

I actually came up with a similar list while trying to come up with something that did not give up Gangbusters, but was mobile and Skitarii-focused:

Turn one, shove three transports into his face. Clear screens with Grators and Duneriders. Deep strike Assassin, Infiltrators, and Drill the next turn. Melt things with lots of dakka. If you can't kill, then play the Stygies cockroach game and hide transports and troops on objectives. Probably was a lot stronger back when we could spam Acquisition though.

Looking at your list, I think this one would need pruning to be even semi-competitive. Maybe create a Mixed Vanguard detachment just like the one you have, give my infantry more Calivers and Arquebuses, cram them into boats, etc. Maybe even cut the Dominus in favor of two rounds of shooting RR1 Canticle.

Yeah, last Detachment is a vanguard. I think breacher are more of a help vs Marines than crawlers. Tau and eldar match up are a wee tougher but still manageable. Only thing I am thinking about is making the infis stygies. No wom but they can ride a boat as well. This list spends a lot of cp on infiltrating but I think this is the way to go. Needs some minor tweaks since not all points are spend but every unit has its job yet their loss is manageable. 3 boats with 20 hoplites, t debuffing vanguards and a tpe with mask plus 4 dragoons in your face t1 or at least 60 t6 wounds with - 1 to hit and 2 or 3 up with shroudpsalm. I like ^^

Just had my first game against IH, oh lord...
Those repulsors are disgusting

I'm not quite sure sure of the boat approach is the right way, as they can be killed so easily by the repulsors (even Shroudpsalm won't help, as they will be AP -5, and the infantry inside will just be picked up by the small arms of the remaining repulsors plus TFC (man' those things are disgusting as well).

There are no real things to threaten the repulsors in the list to be honest.

The real thing to threaten the repulsors is.....an faq - but that could be a while away

Welcome to me at the end of September. Lol. List-building is going to be an exercise in anxiety, so let me just say that so far, I have found that Dakkabots are pretty much the only thing that "work" right now.

And really, Executioners aren't even the worst. Ven Dreads are totally non-interactive. And Stormtalons with a Biker Captain are cancer; because Biker Captains can turbo boost 20" advances, you basically have this deathball of minus to hit, Ironstoned flyers moving around the board melting things.

Well, the purpose of the boats is to force overkill from the Executioners and to get your troops into ruins. So just advance them onto one side of a wall. When they blow up the boat, emergency disembark them on the other side of the wall.

Yeah, I am telling you, Shroudpsalm is not as big a deal anymore. Cawl may be overinvestment for everything not 75% Mars. Just focus on hitting their mobile elements and controlling the board. The only thing that can really kill those Executioners are Dakakbots; 4 Dakkabots instantly kill one, and that really hurts their list. You can also try to tie up their Executioners, but if they are brining TFCs, it will be tough, since they can slow those Dragoons to infantry speeds.

Yeah you are right about Dakkabots. I also had 4 of them and they were the only thing keeping me in the game witth their damage bypassing their stone relic.
But 4 Bots shooting averages just out mathematically if they pop the 5++ MW fnp.

Still not sold on the Boats though. Even if you get to disembark your guys behind a wall every marine list I see is rocking at least 2 pieces of artillery and their artillery loves shredding T3 infantry.

It's really frustrating to be honest. IH are so synergistic and feel just like a better AdMech tbh. (E.g. repairing 6 wounds a turn)
But to be fair we are still one of the earliest codexes and still some what holding our own. I just hope that psychic awakening gives us some love. Maybe building your own craftworld like Eldar get and also an Archmagos stratagem?

True. TFCs and Stormtalons are the things I actually hate the most. Executioners are strong, but without those two pieces, they are tolerable to deal with.

IH are a better everything. More durable than DG. More repair than AdMech. Better combat tricks than Harlequins. Stronger flyers than Eldar. Better artillery than Guard. Ugh.

I'm just praying remaining supplements don't manage to one up the IH. It's already brutal enough I decided to take complete pause from competive tournaments and stick to the casual tournaments here.