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Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

I agree. They're pretty bad now compared to DL's

____________

So how would all of you guys suggest that DE handle Ork hordes? The large blast missiles sound good but you only get one shot with each (four total on that one vehicle) and so will only be able to completely bomb 1-2 squads down to a handleable size.

Another option, though expensive would be to take those missiles that cause a Wounds Test and try to pick out the nobs before hitting their units with talos/cronos, which the S3 orcs cannot hurt at all. A 110 point cronos + 30 pt missile can hold up a unit of 30 boyz which costs roughly 200+ points depending on equipment, and can spread around pain tokens.

Another option I think will work well is 5 Elite Warriors with 4 Splinter Cannons in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons and the upgrade that lets you re-roll all hits with splinter weapons (I think you can do this, am I right?). Move to within 24" of a squad and every turn fire 28 Shots hitting on 3's with rerolls and wounding on 4's while backing up 6". I however don't know how many points this is. ((28/3*2)+((28/3)/3*2))/2= 12.444 Kills per turn on average, assuming no cover save.

Does anyone else have better ideas?

If I'm not mistaken, the Disintergrators are now basically just the one fire mode, same stats right? While the Blast template was nice for the Disintergrator in previous editions, I have a hard time having any love for blast templates in 5th.

I'd much rather, if I'm firing at troops, get a guaranteed 3 shots off, than having to deal w/ a blast template going off target. And now that Ravagers can move 12" and fire all weapons, that'd be 9 AP2 shots. Troops won't like that at all.

Does anyone know the maximum size for wych bloodbride units?

Jpr wrote:Does anyone know the maximum size for wych bloodbride units?

3-10

Thanks. No deathstar sized unit of them then !

They could be used as an Archite's 'Retinue'... 9+Archite (or 8+Haem+Archite)

Rymafyr wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the Disintergrators are now basically just the one fire mode, same stats right? While the Blast template was nice for the Disintergrator in previous editions, I have a hard time having any love for blast templates in 5th.

I'd much rather, if I'm firing at troops, get a guaranteed 3 shots off, than having to deal w/ a blast template going off target. And now that Ravagers can move 12" and fire all weapons, that'd be 9 AP2 shots. Troops won't like that at all.

Wow what? I guess you never used them before, or you haven't used any kind of template weapon before in 5th. Before they lost blast they would downright murder troops, I think the most I ever got was 17 and I was at least 3-5 guys over kill on it, they were disgusting but I don't see why they needed to be nerfed now their pretty much the starcannons of Eldar.

Against a hoard army, yeah...I can still see blast templates being worthy. Against MSU not a viable option.

I expect Dark Eldar have the guns and manoeuvrability to be able to handle hordes or mechanised. The only real problem is the 'glass' aspect of them. They are well equipped and deadly enough to handle hordes or tanks, they are just too fragile to be able to do so completely...

Rymafyr wrote:Against a hoard army, yeah...I can still see blast templates being worthy. Against MSU not a viable option.

Yea cause deal triple wounds on a MSU squad is terrible I forgot silly me. Dissies sucked on raider's I'd give you that but on a ravager good lord!

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

Really? Super...

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Str 5, AP 2, heavy 3.

That doesn't suck for Termies?

Scottywan82 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Str 5, AP 2, heavy 3.

That doesn't suck for Termies?

It's decent just not as awesome as a str 7 blast. Compare them to star cannons, they might not be as bad in points cost as star cannons but why would you bring a ravager with Dissies when 3 DL's is just as good if not better.

Not really, since they can only get a max of 3 hits, where the old ones could possibly get 4, but more likely only get 1 or 2 hits, the new ones wound on a 3 instead of 2, and are far less effective against hoards.

I don't know if this was already mentioned, but since all the Warriors wear pain inducing armor, then logically they should get something similar to FNP?

3 AP2 shots is nothing to get excited about... but fit 3 of those things on a Ravager and they become a little more worrisome. Still not enough to make them dedicated Terminator killers, though, I think.

For example, against Terminators:

At BS4, you get 2 hits.
At S5, you get 1.33 wounds. In other words, you're likely to get one wound, but more likely to get two than zero.
And if they happen to be in cover... those 1.33 wounds become .666 wounds. You may not even get a wound at all. More likely one than zero, but more likely zero than two.

Multiply that by three, though, on a Ravager, and you've got 3.99 wounds out of cover, or 1.995 wounds in cover. Enough to at least force a leadership check in cover, or to severely cripple a unit of 5 termies out of cover.

Except, the terminators have at least 5++ saves, so your 3.999 is really 2.666 or even 1.333 versus storm shield terminators.

Okay, some RIDICULOUS stuff:

First off - Vect CAN have the Archon's Court, but the court says NOTHING about being a retinue, so can they jump on his Dais? The rule for his Dais states that it must carry 9 other figures besides Vect. That's IN the rule. As is the words "dedicated transport." But It seems pretty clear, regardless.

Mandrakes still suck, but they suck with a 5+ invul save.

Cronos and Talos - Both have Power Through Pain! And they are monsters, not armor, so they can use the tokens and get FNP and Furious Charge.

Hot stuff!

I cannot find the rule for Sathonyx that gives him an automatic ability to pull an IC out of combat. I also do not see where he makes Hellions Troops.

NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T THERE - just can't find them.

Also, Slicius is pretty sick, giving all Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms Deep Strike.

Oh and just for Gwar! It looks like the rules for Poisoned Shooting weapons are IN the Codex,a nd point out that the weapons count as Strength 1 for re-rolling to wound.

Just for you, sir.

Scottywan82 wrote:Oh and just for Gwar! It looks like the rules for Poisoned Shooting weapons are IN the Codex,a nd point out that the weapons count as Strength 1 for re-rolling to wound.

O RLY?? That's somewhat encouraging.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Str 5, AP 2, heavy 3.

That doesn't suck for Termies?

No, it just sucks that my pretty DE plasma cannons that could wipe out 3/5 of a squad in 1 shot don't work anymore...

Seriously though Disintegrators don't have a place when you can just take mulitiple DL's and poison weapons that will do the job just fine.

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

Generally if i have a dedicated transport with them , i dont take extras to be used as meat shields.
I see the transport as literally a shield. I would strike enemy units that i know i can annihilate without return fire ( if not , i send 2 units in )
and i use the bulk of the transport to block LOS from the rest of enemy army. ( though i never tried this with Dark Eldar so i dont know if they can shoot under the Raiders ^^; )

LunaHound wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

Generally if i have a dedicated transport with them , i dont take extras to be used as meat shields.
I see the transport as literally a shield. I would strike enemy units that i know i can annihilate without return fire ( if not , i send 2 units in )
and i use the bulk of the transport to block LOS from the rest of enemy army. ( though i never tried this with Dark Eldar so i dont know if they can shoot under the Raiders ^^; )

TLOS says yeah.

Does anyone know the exact rules for chain snares? Can I fly over multiple units causing damage or is it only for 1 unit like the old book?

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

Generally if i have a dedicated transport with them , i dont take extras to be used as meat shields.
I see the transport as literally a shield. I would strike enemy units that i know i can annihilate without return fire ( if not , i send 2 units in )
and i use the bulk of the transport to block LOS from the rest of enemy army. ( though i never tried this with Dark Eldar so i dont know if they can shoot under the Raiders ^^; )

TLOS says yeah.

This is basically the Fish of Fury tactic that is an utter staple for Mech Tau. You can shoot under the skimmer (Dfish for Tau, or a Raider for Deldar) but you give the target the cover save (shooting through one of your own unit at a partially obscured enemy).

Still, it's pretty effective, albeit moreso for Tau (using the Dfish's gun drones to veil the Fire Warriors, so the Dfish won't block the target).

To copypaste my post from my FAQ thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/296151.page#2018692

A Quick update, since I managed to get a look at the codex today for realsies and, despite what will need an FAQ, there is a lot that doesn't that would have needed to in the past.

For example, poison shooting weapons are indeed covered in the special rules (the special rule is even called "Poison Shooting Weapons"). I am shocked and appalled that GW would do such a thing! D:

Expect some TFGs arguing that Delfdars aren't fleet, since everything has "the Fleet special rule", not "the Fleet Universal Special Rule as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulebook".

Wytches Dodge save has been explicitly fixed to apply ONLY to CC attacks, so no more arguments about scattering Blasts.

Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Beastmasters are a mess of rules sadly. Having checked the Power from Pain rule, it says "Whenever a Delfdar unit with PfP destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit" they get the Pain Token. Since not everyone has PfP in the unit, if there are any beasts, they cannot earn Pain Tokens on their own.

That being said, the rule then goes on to say "each pain token confers a special rule to the ENTIRE UNIT". Therefore, while the Beastmaster unit cannot earn Pain Tokens by themselves, if they have them, everyone in the unit benefits so long as one model with PfP is alive. Lots of FAQ stuff there.

Oh, and one of the beasts has "the Rending Special rule" (Zee Rule! SHE DOES NOZEENG!) -Le Sigh-

One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

Mandrakes don't seem to have any issues here, though the lack of an Armour save is disturbing. ;P

Razorwings seem to have no problems, but the Voidraven falls into the pit of calling a Blast Marker a template. Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

The Baron does indeed suffer from Useless Special Rule Syndrome (also known as Bjornitis), so a change to the Who goes first rule is needed. They did nip the Stealth Arguments in the bud by making him grant the stealth USR to any unit he is with while he is with them though.

I am once again shocked and appalled at GW clarifying what happens with Multiple WS with Lelith with regards to her extra attacks, as well as explicitly labeling them Bonus attacks (so she ends up getting 13 when she assaults Fire Warriors.

GW make you chuckle evilly when you place The Decapitator, (BUT FORGET TO DEFINE WHAT EVIL CHUCKLE MEANS OMFG!) but otherwise suffers from the poor Preferred enemy wording.

The Duke has a special rule that says he MUST be deployed with a unit of Warriors or Trueborn, but doesn't go into what happens if you don't have a unit of them in your army, nor does it explicitly require you to have one. It also doesn't explicitly tell you what happens to their upgraded poisons should he die or leave, but the wording seems to indicate they keep the bonus regardless of what happens to him.

As pointed out in another thread, a reminder that you cannot assault out of Raiders that Deep Strike via the Dukes special rule (as the Wargear explicitly forbids it, but the duke doesn't, despite it being forbidden by the main rules anyway).

Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Lady Malys has the same issue as Khârn does, in that she (and her unit) are "completely immune" to psychic powers", with no indication if "Indirect powers" like Enhance, Sanguine Sword or Quickening are ignored also.

She also has a straight up Invul, not just in Close Combat, which might confuse people! D:

Her redeploying power says "after both sides have deployed" but doesn't make mention of where scout moves come into this. I would assume Before from the wording however.

Plasma Grenades don't work. Same reason as IG frags. Useless pillocks the lot of you! And you started off so well!

The CoM is still a nasty Wargear item, though I can't see how the enemy being in CC would be a problem. Need to clarify if it affects embarked Psykers of course (it does) and how it affects units with multiple psykers (each one takes a test! )

-Me goes to sleep then gets to work-

Gwar! wrote:Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Yeah... these confuse me. Are we supposed to roll a bunch of D3s and D6s and total the number of hits, or roll one of each and multiply by the number of models?

Agreed that it's definitely FAQ worthy. Though I doubt it will be that big of a deal playing it either way. (Roll less dice = higher penalty for rolling a 1, roll more dice = less hits even on a good roll).

Less dice mean a more extreme swing (you either do really badly or OMFG WTF HAPPENED TO MY DEATH COMPANY!) while more dice tend towards the middle of the curve (yay bell curves how I love you so!)

I am currently in the process of Writing this now, I'll be posting up a draft sometime before or on friday, and am also working on adding some content to the other 3 FAQs for the November 5th release. (the Drafts are there just to Prove I can do FAQs 3 Weeks before the codex goes on general sale! )

Gwar! wrote:To copypaste my post from my FAQ thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/296151.page#2018692

A Quick update, since I managed to get a look at the codex today for realsies and, despite what will need an FAQ, there is a lot that doesn't that would have needed to in the past.

For example, poison shooting weapons are indeed covered in the special rules (the special rule is even called "Poison Shooting Weapons"). I am shocked and appalled that GW would do such a thing! D:

Expect some TFGs arguing that Delfdars aren't fleet, since everything has "the Fleet special rule", not "the Fleet Universal Special Rule as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulebook".

Wytches Dodge save has been explicitly fixed to apply ONLY to CC attacks, so no more arguments about scattering Blasts.

Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Beastmasters are a mess of rules sadly. Having checked the Power from Pain rule, it says "Whenever a Delfdar unit with PfP destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit" they get the Pain Token. Since not everyone has PfP in the unit, if there are any beasts, they cannot earn Pain Tokens on their own.

That being said, the rule then goes on to say "each pain token confers a special rule to the ENTIRE UNIT". Therefore, while the Beastmaster unit cannot earn Pain Tokens by themselves, if they have them, everyone in the unit benefits so long as one model with PfP is alive. Lots of FAQ stuff there.

Oh, and one of the beasts has "the Rending Special rule" (Zee Rule! SHE DOES NOZEENG!) -Le Sigh-

One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

Mandrakes don't seem to have any issues here, though the lack of an Armour save is disturbing. ;P

Razorwings seem to have no problems, but the Voidraven falls into the pit of calling a Blast Marker a template. Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

The Baron does indeed suffer from Useless Special Rule Syndrome (also known as Bjornitis), so a change to the Who goes first rule is needed. They did nip the Stealth Arguments in the bud by making him grant the stealth USR to any unit he is with while he is with them though.

I am once again shocked and appalled at GW clarifying what happens with Multiple WS with Lelith with regards to her extra attacks, as well as explicitly labeling them Bonus attacks (so she ends up getting 13 when she assaults Fire Warriors.

GW make you chuckle evilly when you place The Decapitator, (BUT FORGET TO DEFINE WHAT EVIL CHUCKLE MEANS OMFG!) but otherwise suffers from the poor Preferred enemy wording.

The Duke has a special rule that says he MUST be deployed with a unit of Warriors or Trueborn, but doesn't go into what happens if you don't have a unit of them in your army, nor does it explicitly require you to have one. It also doesn't explicitly tell you what happens to their upgraded poisons should he die or leave, but the wording seems to indicate they keep the bonus regardless of what happens to him.

As pointed out in another thread, a reminder that you cannot assault out of Raiders that Deep Strike via the Dukes special rule (as the Wargear explicitly forbids it, but the duke doesn't, despite it being forbidden by the main rules anyway).

Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Lady Malys has the same issue as Khârn does, in that she (and her unit) are "completely immune" to psychic powers", with no indication if "Indirect powers" like Enhance, Sanguine Sword or Quickening are ignored also.

She also has a straight up Invul, not just in Close Combat, which might confuse people! D:

Her redeploying power says "after both sides have deployed" but doesn't make mention of where scout moves come into this. I would assume Before from the wording however.

Plasma Grenades don't work. Same reason as IG frags. Useless pillocks the lot of you! And you started off so well!

The CoM is still a nasty Wargear item, though I can't see how the enemy being in CC would be a problem. Need to clarify if it affects embarked Psykers of course (it does) and how it affects units with multiple psykers (each one takes a test! )

-Me goes to sleep then gets to work-

Gwar, I really, really don't mean to insult you, but why do you always look into things too much? RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, its like your favorite word/acronym ever.

"Incubi can't use their PE because it doesn't specify"
"Plasma Grenades don't work"
"The beast doesnt have rending because rending is not a special rule"
"They have the fleet "special rule" not the fleet "USR" so they can't actually fleet"

Are you serious? Do you go to a GW from hell where everyone tries to cheat with their little "RAW" arguments? Clearly the Incubi get the PE against the character. Clearly plasma grenades are assult grenades that follow the rules for such from the BRB. Clearly the beast has rending for his close combat attacks. And most clearliest () of all, anything that has the Fleet "special rule" obviously means that it has the fleet "USR".

From that argument about destroyed if you can't deploy you made a valid point, that it is not specified exactly what happens and so you make it up (and 90% of the time that house ruling will be "destroyed" either because it makes sence or because that is what most, if not all tournaments rule). But this is just rediculous.

Sorry for ranting.

Consistency helps maintain a solid understanding of the rules. If you know exactly what the rules say, it's much easier to make general house-rules (that are accepted by 99% of the player base) to include what I would personally consider "obvious oversights," than it is to arbitrarily assume what GW is saying and then try to use that logic when a legitimately difficult question arises.

To some people, it was clear that Deff Rollas affected Ramming, while to others the opposite was clear. If you always start with exactly RAW, you can then work your way up to a ruleset that is more acceptable to everyone than if you start at some arbitrary level of "this stuff is obvious."