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NoBaconz4You wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

You still cannot deny they are 2 great, quality products. In your sig it blatantly says "GW SUCKS" which gives me reason to believe you'll just about slate anything in the defence of GW.

I'll slate any poor decision done by GW...which so far is practically everything they do.
heck I have praised GW a few times myself, the baneblade was nice, the grey knights are nice (but too expensive, £20 for 5 toys is slowed), many things have been nice or ok, but covered quickly in steaming green poo

NoBaconz4You wrote:Also, space hulk has a load of great, good looking minis which are welcome in any store...

which store is this?, as none of the GW's I've been in allow the models from space hulk to be used

Fetterkey wrote:
Ah, I see the "quoting positive reviews and claiming they're evidence for how much GW sucks" game continues.

Seriously? So you suggest we just ignore those glaring flaws in the model because of it's "sharper detail"? I see the "sticking my head in the sand" game continues.

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Lokirfellheart wrote:When will the emperors champion be able to order?!?!?!

Uh, now?

Ah. I used the search tool on the site to find it, and it came up with what must be the old entry- It didn't have the finecast background and it had no order button.

Stella Cadente wrote:

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

You still cannot deny they are 2 great, quality products. In your sig it blatantly says "GW SUCKS" which gives me reason to believe you'll just about slate anything in the defence of GW.

I'll slate any poor decision done by GW...which so far is practically everything they do.
heck I have praised GW a few times myself, the baneblade was nice, the grey knights are nice (but too expensive, £20 for 5 toys is slowed), many things have been nice or ok, but covered quickly in steaming green poo

NoBaconz4You wrote:Also, space hulk has a load of great, good looking minis which are welcome in any store...

which store is this?, as none of the GW's I've been in allow the models from space hulk to be used

Really? What stores are those? (BTW my store is GW Hereford) I think you might have misunderstood - sure most stores don't have the room for Space Hulk (a minority game, compared to WH40K and WHFB TTG) but the minis are usable in any GW store, they are GW products to the correct scale and factions in WH40K providing they're on a suitable base.

Anyone can dislike GW for the decisions they make, it's not gonna change much sarcastically whining about it on a thread, but it still doesn't change the fact that some of their minis are top notch. Also, I don't think the fact that you consider them just to be 'toys' helps much...

And;

steaming green poo

I'm not sure what you mean here

Some of their minis are amazing and I agree that SpaceHulk has some beautiful models in it.

The thing scaring me is people saying"its a brilliant model, there were a few air bubbles which I filled with superglue, and a little bit of gs here and there, now the model is perfect"

You are basically giving acceptance to something which is inferior to its predecessor and paying more. For the money GW charge there should be no air bubbles and I shouldnt have to break out the gs, at my time and expense to bring it to an aceptable standard.

I have been building gw models for around 20 years and the thought of dripping superglue onto a model, where it will bond instantly freaks me out, as the potential to wreck an expensive model is huge. I would return it, or get a gw staffer to do it. Then if he balls it up I would expect a refund.

Anyway up-shot is YES GW produce some breathtakingly beautiful mini's and their quality is right up there, but right now, what finecast offers is not quality and not value..... this should never have been released until they had QA, QC properly in hand and the staff fully trained and cometent in the new casting techniques.

I'm paranoid now. I will hold off ordering the new Wracks because I don't want some bubble-filled, toe-lacking freaks of nature.

I just want the regular freaks of nature that Wracks are.

Maybe the wracks are supposed to be toeless bubbly freaks

Caddery wrote:While I'm disappointed because of all the issues these models are showing, I really want to see what the models that were not previous metal models look like and if they have the same issue. The new Tomb King releases will give us a good idea what to expect in the future. I'm excited about the direction the GW is going and hope we will see contunied development with this process. If you look at the the history of minatures, GW has been a driving force and the quality of most of their products have only improved with time.

I'm glad you're ok w/ imposed embargo's across the globe. 25% price increases for inferior products. Being treated like crap since you can't be trusted with information about future releases. You're exactly the kind of customer GW wants. Yep, GW is going in a good direction...right into the can.

There is no way this new process hasn't been in the pipe for a very long time. For everyone else defending GW because this is a new process and they have to become competent on how to effectively produce models...Wow! To sit back and say this is actually quite delusional. Especially for a company that has been producing models for over 25+ years.

There are only two options available concerning this move to resin and the issues it currently shows. Either GW has taken the time to make this process the best that it can be and this is as good as it will get. ( Which means GW has failed as a company to live up to their hype and have failed as a modeling company with 25+ years of experience). Or, GW rushed this process out before they were competent enough to actually produce a decent miniature. ( Which means they don't give a rat's hairy ass about the customer, their reputation, or potential losses from this failed release).

@Rymafyr:

There is a third option. There could be an individual or group of individuals somewhere in GW who are primarily responsible for selling management on this switch who are now sweating in their boots as they wait to find out the chances of their continued employment.

I just bought another two blisters (after studying them closely first): Corteaz & the Ork Big Mek.

Corteaz is a close to perfect as I've seen. There is just a very tiny bubble at the underside of the front of his underarm's armour which might as well just be a tiny dent. It will probably be covered up by painting over it.

The Mek has a few more small bubbles, however none of them are in relevant and visable places. Alll except one are on the hardly visable undersides of metal parts that can also pass for tiny dents in the armour/metal. The "worst" one is on the underside of the front of the bag he is wearing, and can likely be fixed in a second by a small drop of glue. It's not a big deal.

They were the first blisters of these models I took off the display, so I didn't have to go through 4 or 5 blisters before finding any good ones.

At least this is some positive news among the many miscasts that are also out there

(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

Perhaps I will post some pictures later when I'm home from work.

Saldiven wrote:@Rymafyr:

There is a third option. There could be an individual or group of individuals somewhere in GW who are primarily responsible for selling management on this switch who are now sweating in their boots as they wait to find out the chances of their continued employment.

By the end of the month of June, I can see that as a very distinct possibility. Good call there.

Is there going to be a point where you can expect the models not to have such deforming air bubbles?
I'm shocked at the number of people pointing out their "good" casts when they have obvious defects.

I have to agree with those who say "for the price, we should not have to fix a model in order to have a complete or acceptable one".

GW has been around for years and this level of product QC is unacceptable. I have never had any issues with the metal and plastic kits I have purchased up to date and have solidly defended GW as having some of the nicest minis on the market. I just can't defend a "superior" product that has obvious QC issues. :-(

dantay_xv wrote:The thing scaring me is people saying"its a brilliant model, there were a few air bubbles which I filled with superglue, and a little bit of gs here and there, now the model is perfect"

While I understand your point here, don't forget that a lot of metal models have (had) metal brambles or pieces of flash in places that makes them almost impossible to remove.

I'd rather have a tiny bubble that can be fixed by a small drop of glue (or just by painting over it, and it depends where on the model it's located also) than having to perform hour-long circus tricks to file away some of those metal flash-brambles (or worse) I've encountered in the past.

This of course doesn't mean that all those current miscasts are in any way acceptable, but let's not pretend that metal is/was 100% perfect either. Both materials will probably never be entirely issue-free.

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost. It's undeniable that the good casts from the finecast range are superior to even the best metal casts from GW - whether it's because of finer rendered detail, workability of the material etc

It depends on the level which you deem a model acceptable to begin painting on but given the amount of pre-paint prep I'm used to having to do on metal figures to remove difficult mould lines, burs, flash and pitting, filling the odd small airbubble and removing (much easier to remove) mould lines on the new resin wins hands down any day.

Yes, there have been a number of vocal "horror story" cases shown online, but I still refuse to believe that these are the majority. QA has clearly been variable at best in a lot o instances but there has clearly also been a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

CMDante wrote: a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

Yeah, and GW's hype about their new amazing, hobby-changing material had nothing to do with the customer's expectations, right?

Sorry CMdante but "unrealistic expectations" as you say, are a reality in other companies... so unless you cant understand that GW is not alone and theres options outhere that deliver the goods you cannot really say they are unrealistic.

The level of acceptance for these amateur casts is mindblowing really...

CMDante wrote:I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost.

actually my resin early tiger from die waffenkammer had no imperfections at all, nothing, nada, ziltch, it was complete perfection, no bubbles, no holes, nothing missing, nothing.

puma713 wrote:

CMDante wrote: a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

Yeah, and GW's hype about their new amazing, hobby-changing material had nothing to do with the customer's expectations, right?

don't forget the claim at being "the best model soldiers in the world", that has no effect on peoples expectations either right?, I mean its almost as if that claim would mean you expect the best model soldiers in the world

Your right - by saying that what they really said is "you will never experience any imperfection in our products... Except that's not what they've said and instead how you have interpreted it?

When it comes to wargames miniatures I believe they do probably make the best available. This is the point where you next reply provides your contrasting opinion - but you know what they say about opinions right?

Navarro - yep, the bad casts are bad but the ones that have come out normal are as good a quality as any mass-manufacturer could reasonably expect. Look at the military modelling Market - there is a whole aftermarket for products to prepare kits for painting and improve upon the detailing on originals.

Yes, GW hyped this release up - and why would that be unacceptable for a business to attempt to generate interest in it's products. Yes, quite a number of casts should never have passed QA but people are being ridiculously critical due to the unrealistic e pectation that there should be no pre-paint prep what-so-ever.

Hell in their own magazine they describe that there will be some imperfections and provide info on how to fix these so don't try to claim to be "fooled" into thinking (on the good casts) there should be no minor imperfections. You are only deluding yourself and being unrealistic lads.

Nothing is perfect, period. Doesn't matter what anyone says about it - there are flaws to be found on some level, no matter how miniscule.

That said, GW has been talking a big talk for years about being the best of the best of the best. They practically wrapped the descriptions of Finecast in gold as they sold it to us - telling us it was so far and beyond better than anything we'd ever seen. It was the most superior line of models out there.

So when GW steps up with that kind of dialogue, talks a big game, people are naturally going to be skeptical. Add to that the massive gakstorm GW has stirred up, and there's where your negativity comes from. People, myself included, wanted Finecast to be the silver lining of a pretty gaked-up month of announcements from GW, but it's not.

At all. Or even close. Finecast is acceptable, but it's not a decent improvement over metal unless you consider weight and workability (not quality), but as the best and most amazing stuff out there, as GW sold it to us as, it is fail. GW needs to put up or shut up when it comes to their product. Nuff said.

..and raised prices significantly in most cases, which leads one to think, "Oh, this really must be the best possible miniature in the world if I'm having to pay 25% more for it than the metal version!"

I don't think anyone here ever expects perfection from any model, however, the glaring miscasts and other issues in this 'finecast' product do nothing to stoke confidence in any of us. As it's been said before, if I'm having to spend the amount of time still prepping a model, GS'ing, removing imperfections, filling bubbles and all that but still have to pay up to 25% more for that model...it's not worth it.

Sorry Again CMdante but please do check other companies that deliver the goods... if they can so can GW thats the least that anyone should expect from them... and thats not irrealistic. What I find really sad and have a hard time to understand is the level of product we have seen is par with the worst garage caster amateur.

I will give you a example... GW metals... were they the best of the market? No but they were good casts and a very nice compromise and people in general accepted them even with small flaws... but these finecasts problems seen are not by far small or discreet flaws they are in fact compromising the model quality... and at these prices levels you cannot expect garage kits to please a serious collector.

Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

CMDante wrote:Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

I agree.

If the miscasts never happened, I cannot see a drawback. It would be a step forward in every way.

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Yet to buy a finecast model myself but to be frank I don't think the issue is simply that the models do not meet the expectations but rather people are expecting more due to GW own hype and being less than impressed with another price rise well above the rate of inflation, I think as a customer what I find to be a real kick in the nuts is that really GW have moved to resin the cut down on costs but have tried to hype it up as something isn't, I think if the prices had just stayed the same you wouldn't see all this anger directed towards the company, personally I feel a lot of fanboys out here are just blind to the bigger picture. Do any of the fanboys really think GW give a monkey's about your custom? all you do is feed the machine that will constantly increases prices at alarming rates, essentially making GW fatter and lazier, just look at the rules these days, so many of you don't make GW work for you money, you just hand it over like a idiot, its almost like running round the street setting £50 notes on fire.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

Actually I really can't see a difference in the detail, resin is just easier to photograph than metal, also is the detail so much better than it warrants such a hefty price rise?

TBD wrote:I just bought another two blisters (after studying them closely first): Corteaz & the Ork Big Mek.

Corteaz is a close to perfect as I've seen. There is just a very tiny bubble at the underside of the front of his underarm's armour which might as well just be a tiny dent. It will probably be covered up by painting over it.

The Mek has a few more small bubbles, however none of them are in relevant and visable places. Alll except one are on the hardly visable undersides of metal parts that can also pass for tiny dents in the armour/metal. The "worst" one is on the underside of the front of the bag he is wearing, and can likely be fixed in a second by a small drop of glue. It's not a big deal.

They were the first blisters of these models I took off the display, so I didn't have to go through 4 or 5 blisters before finding any good ones.

At least this is some positive news among the many miscasts that are also out there

(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

Perhaps I will post some pictures later when I'm home from work.

Frankly this is the only way to buy them right now. I bought 6 pieces. 4 in blisters were near perfect. The 2 in boxes were messed up. At this point buying the blisters online at a discount is also in question as you can't visually inspect them before purchase.

Personally I didn't have any problem with GW's metal models except when they tried to make models that are too large. They should have moved those models over to plastic years ago.

CMDante wrote:Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

That's fine, if you can get quality castings of finecast models.

But apparently my expectation of having at least one usable model out of the $128US of Finecast I bought (not counting the $150US of additional boxes they opened trying, and failing, to find an acceptable Canis), is unrealistic. I guess I should be happy that maybe 1 out of the 12 sprues worth of Finecast I got is actually of decent casting quality.

And it's not a matter of a few tiny bubbles in the middle of a surface, but whole portions of a model missing, or distorted and destroyed detail. My professional standard, as a caster, is to not send out something that requires the customer to have to resculpt part of the model. Surely, with GW claiming these as " the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen", they can meet that bar?

itsonlyme wrote:
Yet to buy a finecast model myself but to be frank I don't think the issue is simply that the models do not meet the expectations but rather people are expecting more due to GW own hype and being less than impressed with another price rise well above the rate of inflation, I think as a customer what I find to be a real kick in the nuts is that really GW have moved to resin the cut down on costs but have tried to hype it up as something isn't, I think if the prices had just stayed the same you wouldn't see all this anger directed towards the company, personally I feel a lot of fanboys out here are just blind to the bigger picture. Do any of the fanboys really think GW give a monkey's about your custom? all you do is feed the machine that will constantly increases prices at alarming rates, essentially making GW fatter and lazier, just look at the rules these days, so many of you don't make GW work for you money, you just hand it over like a idiot, its almost like running round the street setting £50 notes on fire.

I don't consider myself a fanboy, nor do I game. I do consider myself a very experienced minitaure modeller and I would say, for what I got from the Finecast purchase I have made and the enjoyment it gives me, it was worth the money. Would I like it if it was cheaper? Of course, but for me, price isn't my main consideration in purchasing.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

Actually I really can't see a difference in the detail, resin is just easier to photograph than metal, also is the detail so much better than it warrants such a hefty price rise?