Dark Angels tidbits

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**MajorWesJanson**

Deathwing would be quite easy to update rules-wise.
1 Sergeant and 4-9 other models. Sarge has power weapon and storm bolter, others have power fists and storm bolters.
Any model may replace their storm bolter and power weapon/fist for a pair of Lightning claws for free, or a THSS for +10 points. One non sergeant model per five may either replace their storm bolter for a Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Plasma cannon, or take a Cyclone launcher for points. the Sergeant may replace their power weapon with a relic blade for X points and storm bolter for a combi-weapon for x points.

Deathwing command squad takes the same, then adds option to upgrade one model to an apothecary with a storm bolter and narthecum, one model to a champion with a relic blade and +WS, one model with a banner in place of a storm bolter, and heavy weapons are now 2 per 5.

**aka_mythos**

I'm not really talking about updating Deathwing rules, more just about what models GW will try selling to Deathwing players. I think a proper Belial character model is such a mini. Proper Deathwing command squad miniatures would also be something worthwhile.

**Kanluwen**

I'm gonna be honest here.

If they release a robed Terminator kit?

My Terminators are gonna be up for sale.

**Elios Harg**

I foresee a Belial finecast mini and a Deathwing Terminator kit similar to the Wolf Guard and Grey Knight Terminator kits, complete with a banner and apothecary upgrade.

**Brother SRM**

1hadhq wrote:
......every?

- assault squad? ASM never had back banners, they don't fit on the jump packs.
- devastators? The signum takes up the space a banner could go in.
- bikes ? I'll give you this one, but they'd look silly on bikers. Haven't had banners since RT.
- command squad? Comes with one.
- BT upgrade ? Yup.
- IH upgrade / squad ? This is a ridiculous niche that wouldn't have one anyway, since it's already meant to go with a tactical squad.
- WS upgrade? This is a ridiculous niche as well.
- death company ? They don't have them, but they also don't have sergeants.
- Sanguary guard?Jump packs, see ASM.
- space wolf / PA ? Not one, but two in the box.
- GK / PA ? They get em too.

These plastic kits either miss the back banners you seem to get and I and others don't, or they didn't have them from start.

- sternguard? No back banners.
- vanguard? See ASM.
- robed DA ? They come with two backbanners.
- deathwatch hybrid kit? Ridiculous niche, meant to be combined with tactical squad kit that comes with banners.
- LotD except the SGT models? Only sergeants and officers use back banners so I don't see the issue here.
- Masters of the chapter ? No back banners.
- classic SM except SGT ? Only officers like sergeants get them anyway.
- SM veterans?

These metal/ finecast or hybrid kits have no backbanner too.

- chronus? He's inside a tank, where would he have room?
- telion? Scouts have never had banners.
- shrike? Has a jump pack, and a grenade launcher on his back.
- he'stan? Has a big decorative thingy, but yeah, no banner.
- cortez? Not a Space Marine so it doesn't matter.
- cassius? Has a decorative thingy but also no banner.
- kor sarro? Decorative thingy, no banner.
- EC? Not really an officer, wouldn't have one.
- corbulo? Sanguinary Priests have Apothecary backpacks, wouldn't fit.
- dante? Jump pack.
- sanguinor? Iron halo.
- astorath? Jump pack.
- lemartes? Jump pack.
- xavier? They don't even make this model anymore.
- tycho? Has a banner pole.
- lucas? He's a Blood Claw, not a sergeant.
- ulrik? Has a banner pole.
- ragnar? Has a banner pole.
- canis? No banner.
- helbrecht? No banner, has special decorative backpack.
- grimaldus? No banner, has special decorative backpack.
- seth? Iron halo.
- mephiston? Has a banner pole backpack
- sammael? Biker, or in a Land Speeder.
- every specialist and "officer" that hasn't got the old backpack plus banner pole This is really vague.
- every apothecary and techpriest Apothecaries have backpacks with medical tools on them. They haven't had banners since Rogue Trader. Techpriests have servo-arms that wouldn't fit a banner as well.

Most characters? You sure? Again, GW Phasing out the old backpack may reduce the amount of back-banners....

I am aware there are still some kits whith the back-banner, but they are less common now. The list above is just from memory, so please consider these "?" as a " i think they don't have this backbanner IIRC " .

BTW, the point was to get rid of the backbanners and use more of the big standarts, especially with DA.

My answers are in yellow. Most characters still have the option. Captains, sergeants, chapter masters and the like usually come with the option, and most plastic kits come with them. Also please work on your spelling and grammar, as they are in dire need of some refinement. You also left out some notable characters with backbanners, like power armored Marneus Calgar, Captain Sicarius, Lysander, and Pedro Kantor.

**Imperial Monkey**

The worst thing that could happen to DEathwing would be losing the mixed weapon options in one squad. HF/PF and paired LC just belong together against hordes!

**White Ninja**

Lord know is they remove the mixed weapons for deathwing mine will become almost worthless.

**TobyDog**

Any new picts for the Spines of the WD?

**Brother SRM**

TobyDog wrote:Any new picts for the Spines of the WD?

It's still a Dark Angel.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Brother SRM wrote:
TobyDog wrote:Any new picts for the Spines of the WD?

It's still a Dark Angel.

I tip my top hat to you, good sir.

Anyway, I really am looking forward to a Deathwing update. My army will become competitive!

**wyomingfox**

Brother SRM wrote:
TobyDog wrote:Any new picts for the Spines of the WD?

It's still a Dark Angel.

Someone needs a cup of coffee

**Formosa**

MajorWesJanson wrote:Deathwing would be quite easy to update rules-wise.
1 Sergeant and 4-9 other models. Sarge has power weapon and storm bolter, others have power fists and storm bolters.
Any model may replace their storm bolter and power weapon/fist for a pair of Lightning claws for free, or a THSS for +10 points. One non sergeant model per five may either replace their storm bolter for a Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Plasma cannon, or take a Cyclone launcher for points. the Sergeant may replace their power weapon with a relic blade for X points and storm bolter for a combi-weapon for x points.

Deathwing command squad takes the same, then adds option to upgrade one model to an apothecary with a storm bolter and narthecum, one model to a champion with a relic blade and +WS, one model with a banner in place of a storm bolter, and heavy weapons are now 2 per 5.

there is no way i would pay 10pts for a TH/SS per model, lets not go back to our useless 50pt termies from 3rd lol

**terranarc**

50 pts for th/ss not happening.

GW going out of their way with <insert anything> so that players can continue using the models they have, not happening.

I can see belial getting some kind of shiny storm bolter.
How to make DA terminators unique when every other terminator has some form of close combat buff?
Sternguard ammo. There I said it and you know you want it. 40 points per vanilla terminator now justified.

**Brother SRM**

terranarc wrote:50 pts for th/ss not happening.

They're around 63 points a man in the Space Wolves codex, and it's a 5 point upgrade for assault Terminators in the Blood Angels codex. I could see them costing 45 points easily.

**MajorWesJanson**

Brother SRM wrote:
terranarc wrote:50 pts for th/ss not happening.

They're around 63 points a man in the Space Wolves codex, and it's a 5 point upgrade for assault Terminators in the Blood Angels codex. I could see them costing 45 points easily.

Yeah, I was thinking Space Wolf prices, but BA +5 points is more likely.

As for the kit, I can see 5 terminators like the GK kit, with banner and apoth options, and some but not all terminators in robes. Something like a 3/2 mix. Not to annoy people who want to make robed terminators, but so they can mixand match parts with normal terminators still. I'd laos think there will only be a few heavy weapons on the sprue. Probably a cyclone launcher and one or two others.

Belial will likely be finecast, as I think Terminators are too big for both a dynamic model and the mini-sprue plastic format. Maybe a fixed loadout with a Relic blade and Plasma Blaster?

**ZebioLizard2**

Brother SRM wrote:
terranarc wrote:50 pts for th/ss not happening.

They're around 63 points a man in the Space Wolves codex, and it's a 5 point upgrade for assault Terminators in the Blood Angels codex. I could see them costing 45 points easily.

The problem is that space wolves terminators are a far cry different from the standard TH/SS, what with being equippable to squads and such with various other tricks.

It'd be closer to BA if at worst. I do hope that only DA get 40 point termies.

**drunkorc**

Dear Emperior, you have been corrupted to the darkangles side.. Sounds good to me, (us orks can beat all!) i'd like to see more fluff for that chapter.

we still beat that

huh mark.....

**BlapBlapBlap**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:
terranarc wrote:50 pts for th/ss not happening.

They're around 63 points a man in the Space Wolves codex, and it's a 5 point upgrade for assault Terminators in the Blood Angels codex. I could see them costing 45 points easily.

The problem is that space wolves terminators are a far cry different from the standard TH/SS, what with being equippable to squads and such with various other tricks.

It'd be closer to BA if at worst. I do hope that only DA get 40 point termies.

I know that Fluff =/= Rules, but that is actually fluffy. In a Chapter that has an entire Terminator company at their disposal, they're going to be cheaper.

**aka_mythos**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:
terranarc wrote:50 pts for th/ss not happening.

They're around 63 points a man in the Space Wolves codex, and it's a 5 point upgrade for assault Terminators in the Blood Angels codex. I could see them costing 45 points easily.

The problem is that space wolves terminators are a far cry different from the standard TH/SS, what with being equippable to squads and such with various other tricks.

It'd be closer to BA if at worst. I do hope that only DA get 40 point termies.

I know that Fluff =/= Rules, but that is actually fluffy. In a Chapter that has an entire Terminator company at their disposal, they're going to be cheaper.

That really depends if we are to think of points from a game balancing persepctive or representative of the economic cost from the fluff perspective. Only in the latter are you right, but even then this notion of point values doesn't work reasonably work that way. As a matter of fluff and economics if terminators are as rare as they're said to be, it doesn't matter who's producing it each one would be more expensive than an entire IG platoon. This is why points should really only be a matter of game balancing.

When it comes to Deathwing and representing they're greater supply of terminators, I tend to believe they should cost the same as anyone elses... but if they deserve a discount for being more common, it should come from their upgrade and weapon costs. For example, Deathwing should maybe get their heavy weapon fpr free and/or their assault weapon upgrades for points less. Otherwise they should still stay the same basic cost but simply have access to special rules. Both are small bumps that don't mess with the common representative cost.

**Nvs**

The biggest problem with terminators in general is they're overcosted as is. Especially the shooty ones. You then expand this problem by reducing their cost only in the dark angels codex.

I'm all for making Dark Angel terminators stand out above the rest. But terminators as a whole need to be reduced in points. Storm Shields and Hammers increased in points to counteract this.

THEN you can go about doing silly things like making the Dark Angel book have Terminators in the Elite slot that come with better stats and an extra heavy slot. Terminators in the heavy slot that come with cyclones. Terminators in fast attack that can telelport every other turn. etc.

Overall the only terminators that are arguably worth their points right now are the Storm Shield variety. And most you talk to would argue they're undercosted for the simple fact that the ++ save works outside of melee combat.

But don't go off thinking just because they're good the other terminators are good by default.

**Electro**

Nvs wrote:The biggest problem with terminators in general is they're overcosted as is. Especially the shooty ones. You then expand this problem by reducing their cost only in the dark angels codex.

I'm all for making Dark Angel terminators stand out above the rest. But terminators as a whole need to be reduced in points. Storm Shields and Hammers increased in points to counteract this.

THEN you can go about doing silly things like making the Dark Angel book have Terminators in the Elite slot that come with better stats and an extra heavy slot. Terminators in the heavy slot that come with cyclones. Terminators in fast attack that can telelport every other turn. etc.

Overall the only terminators that are arguably worth their points right now are the Storm Shield variety. And most you talk to would argue they're undercosted for the simple fact that the ++ save works outside of melee combat.

But don't go off thinking just because they're good the other terminators are good by default.

Agreed. My personal feeling is that DW should cost about the same as they do at the moment (215points) with TH/SS but be cheaper basic cost then pay for the gear, i.e. say, 35 points per terminator then, and, say 5 for TH and 5 for SS, or the like. They seem to be the one still well priced unit in the force

Personaly I would also like to see being able to take them separetly, so you could have a SS and storm bolter, although I don't see this happening as it might be a little broken. However, vetrans can take it so why not DW.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Electro wrote:
Nvs wrote:The biggest problem with terminators in general is they're overcosted as is. Especially the shooty ones. You then expand this problem by reducing their cost only in the dark angels codex.

I'm all for making Dark Angel terminators stand out above the rest. But terminators as a whole need to be reduced in points. Storm Shields and Hammers increased in points to counteract this.

THEN you can go about doing silly things like making the Dark Angel book have Terminators in the Elite slot that come with better stats and an extra heavy slot. Terminators in the heavy slot that come with cyclones. Terminators in fast attack that can telelport every other turn. etc.

Overall the only terminators that are arguably worth their points right now are the Storm Shield variety. And most you talk to would argue they're undercosted for the simple fact that the ++ save works outside of melee combat.

But don't go off thinking just because they're good the other terminators are good by default.

Agreed. My personal feeling is that DW should cost about the same as they do at the moment (215points) with TH/SS but be cheaper basic cost then pay for the gear, i.e. say, 35 points per terminator then, and, say 5 for TH and 5 for SS, or the like. They seem to be the one still well priced unit in the force

Personaly I would also like to see being able to take them separetly, so you could have a SS and storm bolter, although I don't see this happening as it might be a little broken. However, vetrans can take it so why not DW.

No, what'd be broken is an AC/SS Deathwing Terminator.

**captain collius**

@blap no what would be broken is an AC/CML/SS terminator. 4 s6 rending shots 2 s8 or s4 template shots and a 2+/3++ save= BROKEN

**Elios Harg**

Electro wrote:
Personaly I would also like to see being able to take them separetly, so you could have a SS and storm bolter, although I don't see this happening as it might be a little broken. However, vetrans can take it so why not DW.

I agree on this, I think the 235 mark which is what they cost currently with a 3 storm shield squad and CML is just about spot on. I'd like to see that remain the same, so if you say 5 points for a storm shield, 30 points for a CML, then that would put it at 190 for a stock unit of storm bolter Deathwing before heavy weapons.

In reality, I'm guessing a 3 storm shield unit with CML will likely end up costing 260 points

**Brother SRM**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
No, what'd be broken is an AC/SS Deathwing Terminator.

That wouldn't be broken unless it was insanely cheap or you could take that configuration on a lot of guys. That model would cost somewhere between 70 and 85 points using the current Space Marine codex as a baseline, and even then he still dies to lasgun fire 1/6 of the time, and can't do much in hand to hand. It's insanely silly and a lot of eggs in one basket for the squad.

**Illumini**

captain collius wrote:@blap no what would be broken is an AC/CML/SS terminator. 4 s6 rending shots 2 s8 or s4 template shots and a 2+/3++ save= BROKEN

Seeing as he can only fire either the assault cannon or the CML, that would be a pretty damn stupid load-out.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Illumini wrote:
captain collius wrote:@blap no what would be broken is an AC/CML/SS terminator. 4 s6 rending shots 2 s8 or s4 template shots and a 2+/3++ save= BROKEN

Seeing as he can only fire either the assault cannon or the CML, that would be a pretty damn stupid load-out.

My DA Codex says otherwise...

**Brother SRM**

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
My DA Codex says otherwise...

I don't know about the DA codex, but the Space Marine codex says:

A Terminator can fire his cyclone missile launcher in addition to his storm bolter.

I wouldn't be surprised if the wording is the same in the DA codex, where it clearly marks out the one weapon that can fire in addition to it. I doubt it would be written otherwise, as they don't expect Terminators to have other kinds of guns. Also, I doubt this would change in a new codex. GW have been trying to make their Marine codices consistent, and it would be a random strange thing in the midst of that.

**captain collius**

it was a joke people not seriousness. because it would never happen.

if i was to stick my toe out at likely configurations we will be allowed

Pf/SB, CF/SB, TH/SS, TLLC, CML on anything, AC/PF or CF, HF/pf or CF, PW/SS (Innercircle knight maybe with grey knight wrist mounted SB) Plasmablaster/PW (innercircle) and a sprinkling of plasma here and there

**Illumini**

Brother SRM wrote:
BlapBlapBlap wrote:
My DA Codex says otherwise...

I don't know about the DA codex, but the Space Marine codex says:

A Terminator can fire his cyclone missile launcher in addition to his storm bolter.

I wouldn't be surprised if the wording is the same in the DA codex, where it clearly marks out the one weapon that can fire in addition to it. I doubt it would be written otherwise, as they don't expect Terminators to have other kinds of guns. Also, I doubt this would change in a new codex. GW have been trying to make their Marine codices consistent, and it would be a random strange thing in the midst of that.

It's the exact same wording in the space wolf and BA codex, and the SW's can actually take other weapons with the cyclone