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So... was this Sheev Palpatine the original or a clone? The reason why I ask is because his hands were missing the tips of fingers, looked like he was blind with milky white eyes, etc. If he is a clone, then why did he turn out that way? Cloning isn't a new practice during Episode IX.

Buy the next series of novels and comics to find out!

 Psionara wrote:
So... was this Sheev Palpatine the original or a clone? The reason why I ask is because his hands were missing the tips of fingers, looked like he was blind with milky white eyes, etc. If he is a clone, then why did he turn out that way? Cloning isn't a new practice during Episode IX.

I'm assuming a failed clone of some sort. Obviously the cloning techniques they were using were grimdark, or Snoke wouldn't have looked like he did, not would there be a pickle barrel of (assumed) failed Snoke clones. He could be that old if he transferred into a force-aged clone after the Death Star fall, and then got 30-some years older between Endor and the current time.

I mean, he essentially exploded into power during his fall, and then there's no way that he survived the explosion of the Death Star.

It would have made the tension between him and General Hux better, instead of a petty fight about leadership it would be a more central fight about the survival of the cult if Hux felt that Kylo was betraying their values.

Also, regarding General Hux. Was there any real explanation why the New Order (Empire 2.0) abandoned Admirals for Generals?

I just assumed he was the original...from the DS2...incarnating incompletely like some kind of early-book Voldemort. I got a strong Army of Darkness vibe from him, so whatever seems like the cheesiest way to bring a villain back to life is probably the correct explanation.

If he’s a clone, they didn’t use enough Baby Yoda juice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@D-USA, It’s probably because JJ understands military ranks about as well as he understands science. It might just be that he thinks Admirals belong in Star Trek and Generals in Star Wars.

Looking through some Wikis it seems like the Empire has actually used Generals in the past, so that would be less unusual then. Maintaining the difference between ground troops and airline crew.

Backfire wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:
"Your Snoke theory sucks"-Rian Johnosn.

Yeah, I'm only imagining RJ's disdain. Drink that green titty milk Luke!

Johnson was right, though. When I watched TFA, I did not find Snoke particularly gripping villain. He came out cookiecutter and boring,

He was, and I'd be surprised if you found a brief hologram aping the Emperor's hologram in Empire Strikes Back anything but cookiecutter and boring.

But that doesn't make Johnson 'right' in any way. He had free reign to develop the character in any direction he chose, and opted to kill him off and NOT set up something better. Just did nothing instead. The wheels just kept spinning through TLJ so Abrams stuffed more nonsense into the RoS hamster cage, because Johnson left Episode 8 in exactly the same situation that it started out in: rebels need to escape the first order to go do... something. The fact that the number of rebels is smaller isn't important, because the listed actors for the next film are still around.

Other than Starkiller base, have we seen Hux on the ground?


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Also, I liked that RJ’s take on Snoke was more fun than JJ’s. Then they Ulysses Klawed him.

 d-usa wrote:
It would have made the tension between him and General Hux better, instead of a petty fight about leadership it would be a more central fight about the survival of the cult if Hux felt that Kylo was betraying their values.

Yes, absolutely. We could even have Hux be a simple militant authoritarian who just tolerates the cult aspects.

Most importantly, I think JJ and Kasdan misjudged the defining trait of Darth Vader that has emerged after all these years since RotJ: he is a prisoner — a prisoner of his choices, his armor, his past, his destiny. This is the key aspect of Vader and the bridge between Vader and Kylo.

It should been clarified in TLJ why Ben Solo turned to the Dark Side. I don’t mean that he “became” a bad guy, I mean he turned to darkness in the sense of turning to a friend when you are in need. Ben had to deal with this tremendous pressure to be the first Knight of the revived Jedi Order. And they could have made it clear, he just wasn’t getting it as quickly as everyone (including Luke and Leia) expected. And how do you get more powerful faster when it comes to the Force? Well back in 1980, Yoda told us that the Dark Side = fast gains.

This would also have been an opportunity to explain the Han/Leia break-up. You just have Han not on board with all this pressure on his son from Luke and Leia. This also means Ben and Han can have a substantive father/son connection.

Anyhow, Ben starts using the Dark Side and then develops a complex about being a prisoner of destiny, just like grandpa. So he joins an Empire-worshipping cult that needs a Vader analog.
Except, the core cult members are aware that Vader ultimately betrayed the Empire and fear Kylo will eventually do the same to them. So they give him a “bodyguard” who are actually his prison guards, the Knights of Ren.

It’s a pretty cool idea, what if the cult leader is actually a hostage?

It would make sense with the Palpatine reveal as well; Kylo was never the real cult leader, just the stand in.

 LordofHats wrote:
It would make sense with the Palpatine reveal as well; Kylo was never the real cult leader, just the stand in.

Exactly, I seem to remember Allegiant General Pryde stating that he serves Palpatine as he did during the days of the Empire. So it looks as if the generals, or at least some of them, knew about the emperor's survival and were just waiting for him to arise again.


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 AegisGrimm wrote:

I'm assuming a failed clone of some sort. Obviously the cloning techniques they were using were grimdark, or Snoke wouldn't have looked like he did, not would there be a pickle barrel of (assumed) failed Snoke clones. He could be that old if he transferred into a force-aged clone after the Death Star fall, and then got 30-some years older between Endor and the current time.

I mean, he essentially exploded into power during his fall, and then there's no way that he survived the explosion of the Death Star.

Very true. Dominic Monaghan, who plays Beaumont Kin in TRoS stated during the spy intel debriefing that they were rumors of cloning and Sith experimentation going on. That and Palpatine wasn't as disfigured as he was in RotS and RotJ.

I wonder what Rey "Skywalker" is going to be end up doing. Do you think she will go on to create a new Jedi order, like what Luke was doing before Ben Solo and the soon to be Knights of Ren killed everyone and destroyed the place?

 Manchu wrote:
Buy the next series of novels and comics to find out!

I'm starting to think this is deliberate. Because otherwise, these are just trash-tier movies without the slightest bit of consistency.

Chekov's gun, Disney. Look into it. Movies shouldn't require a homework assignment.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Chekov's gun, Disney. Look into it. Movies shouldn't require a homework assignment.

Ding, ding, ding! Here, have an exalt!

Jesus this is legitimate.

"I wouldn't start a trilogy without a roadmap. I DIDN'T DO THAT!" -JJ Probably.


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SamusDrake wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Seriously name me one character from the Force Awakens to the Rise of Skywalker that you cared about.

To be fair, we cared enough to want to know more about them, its just that they took too long to get around to telling us enough about them, and probably too little at the end.

I went to a second viewing again this afternoon...and I wonder if the sequel trilogy is going to get an animated series to explore things they didn't have enough time for in the movies - much like the Prequels had Clone Wars.

I will agree with you on that.

Also to be fair...I did love Babu Frik. He and Baby Yoda need to get together and have some adventures with those two scout troopers from Mandelorian EP 8.

 Togusa wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I just can't get my head around the idea that they are going to spend hundreds of millions on talented actors, amazing effects artists, set designers, costume designers, film on location around the world...and they can't be arsed working on the scripts for long enough to make them actually good.

I am sure it is all to do with hollywood bs, but don't the money people realise that crap scripts tank movies that are good in all other respects really reliably?

Except for the fact that Kylo looks like Young Anakin PT. 2.
Rey has no facial expressions and all the personality of a brick sitting underneath my porch.
Finn is just there because "black dude points" and so on.
The white rebel fighter pilot...what's his name? Can't remember, super who cares about him.
Po's Power Ranger girlfriend...you know, because Toys.
Babu Frick...you know, more toys. He Heyyyy!!

Seriously name me one character from the Force Awakens to the Rise of Skywalker that you cared about.

Just cap this franchies in the head and leave everything to the Mandelorian, which is so far superior to the rest of the franchise movies, that it makes them all look like amateur college films.

Sorry what? Saying John Boyega was only included for "black dude points" is pretty racist, the guy is a great actor, very charismatic and great comic timing. Finn was my favourite character from the first movie, and I cared about what happened to him in each subsequent one (I was disappointed!).
Daisy Ridley absolutely acts the part well, and saying she has no facial expressions has me wondering if you have watched the films?
Oscar Isaacs as Poe Dameron was a fun and pretty classic star wars character, and I enjoyed him in all three movies. Again, I think he was misused but there was nothing wrong with the character or the performance.
Babu Frick and Power Ranger I will give you, but ffs, this is Star Wars. It has always had lots of characters that were merchandisable.

 Psionara wrote:
So... was this Sheev Palpatine the original or a clone? The reason why I ask is because his hands were missing the tips of fingers, looked like he was blind with milky white eyes, etc. If he is a clone, then why did he turn out that way? Cloning isn't a new practice during Episode IX.

Film wise we only have the "unnatural" theme to work with as its not clear how the Emperor survived. The Clone Wars enforces this with Darth Maul surviving a death where he was a) cut in half and b) falling a great hight, supposedly finishing the job.

However, if we use the EU as a guide, the emperor's spirit transferred to his "dark side planet" of Byss after slain by Darth Vader in ROTJ. I think thats what the big blue hissy-fit flame was all about. He wakes up in a fresh clone body inside a cloning cylinder. Digging a bit deeper into the EU, we discover that cloning jedi comes with its problems; Joruus C'Baoth, the clone of the jedi master Jorus C'Baoth***, is insane.

We also know that the dark side can corrupt one's visual appearance. In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin's eyes change soon after turning...

*** for all you fellow geeks out there, the extra "u" indicates a clone in Timothy Zahn's Empire trilogy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:


Also to be fair...I did love Babu Frik. He and Baby Yoda need to get together and have some adventures with those two scout troopers from Mandelorian EP 8.

Sadly I haven't seen a single episode of The Mandelorian yet. But I think Babu was that little guy who hacked C-3PO? He was quite funny in a Jim Henson kinda way.

 Psionara wrote:
I wonder what Rey "Skywalker" is going to be end up doing. Do you think she will go on to create a new Jedi order, like what Luke was doing before Ben Solo and the soon to be Knights of Ren killed everyone and destroyed the place?

I got the impression she had plans for a career in moisture farming.

 Da Boss wrote:
Sorry what? Saying John Boyega was only included for "black dude points" is pretty racist, the guy is a great actor, very charismatic and great comic timing. Finn was my favourite character from the first movie, and I cared about what happened to him in each subsequent one (I was disappointed!).
Daisy Ridley absolutely acts the part well, and saying she has no facial expressions has me wondering if you have watched the films?
Oscar Isaacs as Poe Dameron was a fun and pretty classic star wars character, and I enjoyed him in all three movies. Again, I think he was misused but there was nothing wrong with the character or the performance.
Babu Frick and Power Ranger I will give you, but ffs, this is Star Wars. It has always had lots of characters that were merchandisable.

I liked Finn in Episode 7 and I thought his character made an otherwise bad reboot of Episode 4 at least fun to watch.

I can't agree there's nothing wrong with Poe, though. He goes on vacation for half of Episode 7 but is treated as super relevant when he does show up, he's sidelined and constantly bashed in Episode 8, and in Episode 9 he appears to be a fully fleshed out character that bears little resemblance to what i saw in the previous two movies. The character's a mess.

Since I like Finn seeing his character take a (non-literal) beating in Episode 8 affects me more, but objectively I think the messy absence of concrete plans for the trilogy hits Poe the hardest of all the main cast.

 Da Boss wrote:


Sorry what? Saying John Boyega was only included for "black dude points" is pretty racist, the guy is a great actor, very charismatic and great comic timing. Finn was my favourite character from the first movie, and I cared about what happened to him in each subsequent one (I was disappointed!).
Daisy Ridley absolutely acts the part well, and saying she has no facial expressions has me wondering if you have watched the films?
Oscar Isaacs as Poe Dameron was a fun and pretty classic star wars character, and I enjoyed him in all three movies. Again, I think he was misused but there was nothing wrong with the character or the performance.
Babu Frick and Power Ranger I will give you, but ffs, this is Star Wars. It has always had lots of characters that were merchandisable.

Yeah, not really. John Boyega is a passable actor. Didn't help that his character was utter garbage from a character design perspective. I'm an indoctrinated stormtrooper who had a change of heart. But I'm also a complete coward despite at least a decade of mental conditioning and training.

Fynn's character was completely wrong. He needed to be a grizzled veteran who had done his share of killing, but began to question his actions when they started killing civilians in large numbers. Making him a yellow bellied Stormtrooper janitor was a terrible choice. It would also have excused him knowing so much about Starkiller Base's weakspot and the finer details of the First Order's hyperspace tracking. A janitor would NEVER know those things. A grizzled veteran who was once a fairly trusted individual might. Great comic timing is not a good choice for his character. It just fails to be funny.

Daisy Ridley got better, but in the first two movies she had the acting depth of a potato. She wasn't getting any help from the story, but her performance wasn't contributing anything. Her expressions always seemed forced and exaggerated. Like watching an Opera where every character is exaggerated. She didn't seem like a real character, she seemed like an actress playing a character. Its never good when the actor bleeds into the performance. Good actors make you forget they are there. With most of the main cast in this movie, the ineptitude of the actor was bleeding through at uncomfortable levels.

Oscar Isaacs was fine I do agree. Good job considering what he was given.

I have to disagree on John Boyega. He has above average charisma for an actor and ability to make his characters like able that lesser actors wish they had. There's a scene in Pacific Rim 2 where he is making a sundae, and he makes it surprisingly compelling. He may not have worked miracles in the SW sequels, but look at what he was given to work with.

You can disagree with the plot that Finn was part of (I do, I think he was misused in TLJ and TROS) but that is not my argument. I am arguing he was not hired for being a black man, but was hired because he is a great actor with a lot of charisma.

I disagree on Ridley also. Her performances were perfectly fine. Not every actor just disappears into their roles -- many leading men fit this category -- and I don't think that's what Rey really called for anyway. She's the hero, and a certain amount of straightforward earnestness comes with what. I think critics were also generally positive about her as well...?

Let's not forget that SW fans had it in their heads that Natalie Portman was a terrible actress before she went off and got three Academy Award nominations (with one win). Better material makes a wee bit of difference.

 gorgon wrote:

Let's not forget that SW fans had it in their heads that Natalie Portman was a terrible actress before she went off and got three Academy Award nominations (with one win). Better material makes a wee bit of difference.

Whilst I'm not Natty P's biggest fan I think after the first prequel she figured she'd signed to a lame duck and decided 'I've only got to out-act Mannakin here, so the main thing is to stay awake"

Even HC isn't as bad as he seemed in the prequels. Turns out that lines you can't say combined with a director who barely understands human emotion don't set up any actor for success.

Just saw the movie, haven't seen ep 7 or ep 8. I'd rate my previous Star Wars knowledge as "more than an average person, less than a dedicated Star Wars fan".

I think I agree with the notion that the movie felt a bit disjointed. The whole "we've got less than a day to fix this, get on it, stat!" part felt a bit silly. We zoom between vistas that just feels forced into a very short span of time. There's this attempt to build a sense of urgency, but it just doesn't feel plausible to have the main cast being everywhere they are within the alotted time.

As a side-note, do Rey and Ren fight like they're going at each other with baseball bats in the two other movies too?

 gorgon wrote:
Even HC isn't as bad as he seemed in the prequels. Turns out that lines you can't say combined with a director who barely understands human emotion don't set up any actor for success.

Agreed. The one missing ingredient in the prequels was an experienced director. Hayden Christiansen proved his worth as a decent actor in Shattered Glass(2003), and for a moment, lets just have another look at the cast of the prequels...

Liam Neeson.
Ewan McGreggor
Natalie Portman
Frank Oz
Samuel Jackson
Ian McDiarmid
Terrance Stamp

...even for the time, that was a very strong cast. Even the youngest, Natalie Portman, had impressed audiences with her role in Leon(1994)...

George had not directed a film in donkey's years and should have had a warm up before he tackled Phantom Menace - a small tv mini series perhaps. Unfortunately the SW: Special Editions were only an exercise in vfx and post production, not substantial direction of actors. Still, thats in the past now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As a side-note, do Rey and Ren fight like they're going at each other with baseball bats in the two other movies too?

Pretty much so in Force Awakens, yes. Not so much in Last Jedi.

 Geifer wrote:


I can't agree there's nothing wrong with Poe, though. He goes on vacation for half of Episode 7 but is treated as super relevant when he does show up, he's sidelined and constantly bashed in Episode 8, and in Episode 9 he appears to be a fully fleshed out character that bears little resemblance to what i saw in the previous two movies. The character's a mess.

He doesn't go on vacation. The character dies in the script.

Then Abrams decided he like the guy (the actor), so plopped him into an X-wing for the last arc, with no functional explanation why he isn't dead in the tie fighter wreckage.

Its the same reason several people he worked with before have bit parts in RoS. Poe's girlfriend in the helmet and either Pippin or Merry (whichever was in Lost), show up for just long enough to fill a contract, but not enough to be a meaningful part of the story. Its just a favor to get his friends some star wars money (and waste runtime)

A wrote:
As a side-note, do Rey and Ren fight like they're going at each other with baseball bats in the two other movies too?

Yes.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I just can't get my head around the idea that they are going to spend hundreds of millions on talented actors, amazing effects artists, set designers, costume designers, film on location around the world...and they can't be arsed working on the scripts for long enough to make them actually good.

I am sure it is all to do with hollywood bs, but don't the money people realise that crap scripts tank movies that are good in all other respects really reliably?

Except for the fact that Kylo looks like Young Anakin PT. 2.
Rey has no facial expressions and all the personality of a brick sitting underneath my porch.
Finn is just there because "black dude points" and so on.
The white rebel fighter pilot...what's his name? Can't remember, super who cares about him.
Po's Power Ranger girlfriend...you know, because Toys.
Babu Frick...you know, more toys. He Heyyyy!!

Seriously name me one character from the Force Awakens to the Rise of Skywalker that you cared about.

Just cap this franchies in the head and leave everything to the Mandelorian, which is so far superior to the rest of the franchise movies, that it makes them all look like amateur college films.

Sorry what? Saying John Boyega was only included for "black dude points" is pretty racist, the guy is a great actor, very charismatic and great comic timing. Finn was my favourite character from the first movie, and I cared about what happened to him in each subsequent one (I was disappointed!).
Daisy Ridley absolutely acts the part well, and saying she has no facial expressions has me wondering if you have watched the films?
Oscar Isaacs as Poe Dameron was a fun and pretty classic star wars character, and I enjoyed him in all three movies. Again, I think he was misused but there was nothing wrong with the character or the performance.
Babu Frick and Power Ranger I will give you, but ffs, this is Star Wars. It has always had lots of characters that were merchandisable.

John is a good actor. It's a shame that they didn't let him act or give him anything of interest to do. Three movies and I still don't know why he is even there, what his views are, etc. Finn might be the most underdeveloped character of the whole franchise.
Yes, I've seen all three films multiple times. Daisy is a gak actress. Sorry but I find the actress and the character to be dull as bricks. Kylo could have done us all a favor and just not healed her.
Oscar was absolutely misused. I blame a lot of the actors being misused on the stupid constant fanservice nonsense they kept trying to shove in our faces.

Compare the two action figures sales pitch characters to baby yoda, who is also a toy seller. But, Baby Yoda has a purpose, is part of the story, is interested and intriguing. They couldn't have done this with the other two from the new movie?

I think Daisy could be great in the right role, but she is not great at communicating her characters’ inner life. Unfortunately, Rey’s arc is only compelling with the internal conflict I assume we are supposed to know she feels. She’s great bouncing off the other actors, though.

I wonder how much better received the character of Rey would have been if given to an actress with a richer pool of ...er, thinking faces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it’s delightfully meta how much black market demand there is for Baby Yoda merchandise.

 Togusa wrote:

Yes, I've seen all three films multiple times. Daisy is a gak actress. Sorry but I find the actress and the character to be dull as bricks.

Funny, I thought Daisy gave us the best perfomance in a Star Wars movie since Han Solo which remains the best performance in Star Wars movies so far. I think she did a great job. In fact I would say that if there is one place where the sequel did very well was the acting overall better than the original and prequal though the best performance of the sequel doesn't match the best performances of the original though there is less terrible performance. Only Boyega was a bit off, especially in the first instalment, but I think that's more of a script than a performance issue. As far as lead role is taken, the sequel had a significantly more interesting and well played character than "nothing boy" Luke Skywalker or "angsty man-child" Anakin Skywalker.