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curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
It's not an Anime it's a Manga and the land of Berserk has a lot of similarities to a Feudal World.
Costed correctly basically means its not OP because it means it will kill no more than its cost in points then die.
Besides the books are objectively good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 17:04:29
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
At 500 points hell be quickly ripped apart by two bloodthirsters with Corpulence that are better in every way than he is and do his job much better.
Anything can be balanced by throwing points at it. I've said this all the time because it's true. If I made this monster 600 points would you seriously consider even looking its way for a spot in your army?
No, you say? Well this proves my point.
Again the character this is based on is around 85% scar tissue. The durability is in line with the character.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 18:14:41
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
At 500 points hell be quickly ripped apart by two bloodthirsters with Corpulence that are better in every way than he is and do his job much better.
Anything can be balanced by throwing points at it. I've said this all the time because it's true. If I made this monster 600 points would you seriously consider even looking its way for a spot in your army?
No, you say? Well this proves my point.
Again the character this is based on is around 85% scar tissue. The durability is in line with the character.
Do you ever actually discuss any of the points people make?
The ability to be killed by something does not make it balanced. This goes doubly so when using incredibly powerful units as justification.
Right, so for your example of two bloodthirsters. In comparison, your character is still infinitely more durable. Better armour save, an invuln, FnP (improved), IWND (improved), and EW. The daemons will throw down 12 attacks, of which 8 will get through. They wound on 3s, so another 6 get through, optimistically. You'll stop two with the invuln, another two from FnP, and with the re-roll, a single wound will get through. Oh, and then will likely regenerate that wound.
Two bloodthirsters, possibly some of the hardest hitting CC monsters in the game can hardly get a single wound through in combat.
So no, he's not balanced.
Do you understand my points? Can you please, and I'm being sincere, please go back and read my points and discuss them.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
BaconUprising wrote: Agggghhhh for gods sake! The fact that if it can be killed by something does not make it balanced! I really am done now, I just resist.
Those Corpulence Bloodthirsters (together) are also way better in EVERY way and would kill more sh*t every game guaranteed.
Its not that it can be killed by something it's that something is in every way better and will do its job better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 18:28:29
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
BaconUprising wrote: Agggghhhh for gods sake! The fact that if it can be killed by something does not make it balanced! I really am done now, I just resist.
Those Corpulence Bloodthirsters (together) are also way better in every way and would kill more sh*t every game guaranteed.
Please see my post above disproving this theory.
Oh, and on the offense, your character deals 2 wounds every round. Rough math is telling me that given enough rounds, you would actually win against those bloodthirsters.
Those bloodthirsters with no ranged weaponry you character has.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 18:29:13
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
BaconUprising wrote: Agggghhhh for gods sake! The fact that if it can be killed by something does not make it balanced! I really am done now, I just resist.
Those Corpulence Bloodthirsters (together) are also way better in every way and would kill more sh*t every game guaranteed.
Please see my post above disproving this theory.
Oh, and on the offense, your character deals 2 wounds every round. Rough math is telling me that given enough rounds, you would actually win against those bloodthirsters.
Those bloodthirsters with no ranged weaponry you character has.
Together they have 10 attacks, 12 wounds, both have 6T, and they both have a 4+ FNP. Those Bloodthirsters have the lash of khorne which can easily instagib Annihilation barges. They also have a 5+ IWND My guy will be taking at least 3 wounds a turn and can only heal 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 18:36:14
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Wargear:
- Artificer Armor
- Frag and Krak Grenades
- Storm Shield
- Two Storm Bolters
- Creed's Tempest Blade - This is a mastercrafted Lightning Blade (+1 Str) that resolves all wounds at AP2
Special Rules:
- Independant Character
- ATSKNF - Rites of Battle - All units on the tabletop use his LD for all tests using LD - Pressing Strikes - To-hit rolls of 6 cause another attack. These attacks do not generate further attacks and do not ignore armor saves. The strength of these attacks occurs without weapon modifiers (such as Lightning blade +1 str modifier), but with other modifiers (such as Strength from Within str modifier).
- Biomancer - Forte may use one psychic power per turn. He himself is the target of these powers. In addition, he knows only the two following powers.
- Strength from Within (slightly modified Iron Will power): Forte gains d3 in two of the following four stats: Strength, Toughness, Initiative, and Attacks. In addition, he gains Eternal Warrior while this power is in effect.
- Into the Fray: Forte moves like Jump Infantry and adds 3" to any run move (usually d6"+3"), OR gains the furious charge and hammer of wrath special rules.
Warlord Trait: Holding Tactics and Strategy: Any unit Forte is currently joined with that may normally deny objectives is considered scoring. In addition, pick a single denying unit before the game. That unit is a troops unit for the purposes of the FOC.
Cost Breakdown for Forte:
Spoiler:
C:SM Captain Base - 100 pts
Artificer Armor - 15 pts
Storm Shield - 15 pts
Two Storm Bolters - 10 pts
Rites of Battle - 20 pts
Pressing Strikes - 5 pts
Creed's Tempest Blade - 45 pts (15 pts power weapon + 10 pts plus one str + 10 AP2 + 10 mastercrafted)
Holding Tactics and Strategy - 20 pts
Biomancer: 45 pts (1st power - 30 pts, 2nd power - 15 pts)
TOTAL: 275 pts
Marshall Damien Kaiser v.2.0
Spoiler:
Cost: 205
WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD10 Sv 2+/4++
Wargear:
- Artificer Armor
- Stormbolter
- Frag and Krak Grenades
- Special Issue Ammunition
- Iron Halo
- Meltablade - A lightning blade (+1 str), with Armorbane special rule that resolves hits at AP2. In addition, it may be fired as a Meltagun (12" S8 AP1 Melta).
Special Rule:
- Independent Character
- ATSKNF - Pressing Strikes
- Field Marshall - 24" LD bubble
Warlord Trait:
- Sternguard Battleforce - Sternguard Veterans may be taken as troops
Cost Breakdown Marshall Kaiser
Spoiler:
C:SM Captain Base: 100 pts
Artificer Armor: 15 pts
Stormbolter: 5 pts
Special Issue Ammo: 5 pts
Meltablade: 55 pts (15 base, 10 for +1 str, 10 for AP2, 10 for armorbane, 10 for meltagun)
Pressing Strikes: 5 pts
Field Marshall: 10 pts
Sternguard Battleforce: 10 pts
TOTAL: 205 pts
Marshall Markus Wright
Spoiler:
Cost: 205
WS6 BS5 S4 T5 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV: 2+/4++
Wargear:
- Frag and Krak Grenades
- Artificer Armor
- Iron Halo
- Space Marine Bike
- Lance of a Power - This is a power weapon that on the turn the unit charges, gains +2 strength, becomes AP2, and gains the Armorbane and Lance special rules
Special Rules:
- Independent Character
- ATSKNF - Pressing Strikes
- Field Marshall
Warlord Trait: Bike Battleforce - Space Marine bike squads of at least 6 models are troops.
Cost Breakdown Marshall Wright
Spoiler:
C:SM Captain Base - 100 pts
Artificer Armor - 15 pts
Bike - 35 pts (25 pts bike + 10 pts Bike Battleforce warlord trait)
Pressing Strikes - 5 pts
Field Marshall - 10 pts
Lance of a Power - 40 pts (PW base 15 pts, +2 str on charge 10 pts, AP2 on charge 5 pts, lance on charge 5 pts, armorbane on charge 5 pts; cost of "on charge" items are halved compared to actual placement on weapon)
TOTAL: 205
Wargear:
- Frag and Krak Grenades
- Artificer Armor
- Jump Pack
- Meltabombs
- Iron Halo
- Pair of Maelstorm Claws - These are a pair of Lightning Claws (shred) that have the rending special rule
Special Rules:
- Independent Character
- ATSKNF - Pressing Strikes
- Furious Charge
- Field Marshall
- Heroic Intervention - Richter and any jump infantry unit he deepstrikes with may assault on the turn they land
Warlord Trait:
Jump Infantry Battleforce: Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans may be taken as troops.
BaconUprising wrote: Agggghhhh for gods sake! The fact that if it can be killed by something does not make it balanced! I really am done now, I just resist.
Those Corpulence Bloodthirsters (together) are also way better in every way and would kill more sh*t every game guaranteed.
Please see my post above disproving this theory.
Oh, and on the offense, your character deals 2 wounds every round. Rough math is telling me that given enough rounds, you would actually win against those bloodthirsters.
Those bloodthirsters with no ranged weaponry you character has.
Together they have 10 attacks, 12 wounds, both have 6T, and they both have a 4+ FNP. Those Bloodthirsters have the lash of khorne which can easily instagib Annihilation barges.
Lash or Khorne is a S6 attack. So no, it won't be instagibbing any vehicles.
And the FnP is another 20pts you have to pay for for the chance of rolling on a table and hoping you get those results.
And your character has a lascannon and two stormbolters essentially.
Listen, I've shown to you that your example was wrong about the bloodthirsters easily killing your character. They won't. You can argue until your blue in the face, but without any math to back your arguments up, you have no ground to stand on.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
BaconUprising wrote: Agggghhhh for gods sake! The fact that if it can be killed by something does not make it balanced! I really am done now, I just resist.
Those Corpulence Bloodthirsters (together) are also way better in every way and would kill more sh*t every game guaranteed.
Please see my post above disproving this theory.
Oh, and on the offense, your character deals 2 wounds every round. Rough math is telling me that given enough rounds, you would actually win against those bloodthirsters.
Those bloodthirsters with no ranged weaponry you character has.
Together they have 10 attacks, 12 wounds, both have 6T, and they both have a 4+ FNP. Those Bloodthirsters have the lash of khorne which can easily instagib Annihilation barges.
Lash or Khorne is a S6 attack. So no, it won't be instagibbing any vehicles.
And the FnP is another 20pts you have to pay for for the chance of rolling on a table and hoping you get those results.
And your character has a lascannon and two stormbolters essentially.
Listen, I've shown to you that your example was wrong about the bloodthirsters easily killing your character. They won't. You can argue until your blue in the face, but without any math to back your arguments up, you have no ground to stand on.
At my Game store you get to choose gifts.
My guy will be taking at least 3 wounds a turn and can only heal 1.
This is due to another homerule where furious charge adds D3 attacks when using thirster's.
Without this hell be taking at least 2 wounds even with his 2+ FNP. GW dice roll ones much more often than 1/6 and I have horrific luck.
Without this my guy still has no chance.
They'll be taking a wound out of their 12 pretty much.
No my guy has no chance in hell against that.
Even if you're right (you're not) I can still up his cost to 400 and reduce the chance of going berserk. Which I'll do right now. Now he takes the leadership test on 2D6. He probably wont have it happen in the average length game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 18:47:48
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
You can always JAWS him......
Thankyou, this is correct.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
At my Game store you get to choose gifts.
My guy will be taking at least 3 wounds a turn and can only heal 1.
This is due to another homerule where furious charge adds D3 attacks when using thirster's.
Without this my guy still has no chance.
They'll be taking a wound a piece pretty much,
No my guy has no chance in hell against that.
Okay, so those rules change some small details, and would be nice to know earlier.
So, picking gifts, sure.
The D3 extra attacks is weird, but whatever.
But anyways, here's the math again for you.
Lets put everything in favour of the thirsters; they get the charge, roll an extra 3 attacks, and your buddy doesn't get to shoot his lascannon.
They hit you with 18 attacks. 12 land, and another 8 wound. You'll save 2 or 3 (we'll go with 2, assuming everything in the thirsters favour), and now you get your FnP. You'll stop 3 initially, and another 1.5, but we'll call it 1.
So no, he doesn't take 3, he takes 2 at most. That's in the one round where absolutely everything goes in their favour. And you'll still regenerate one of those wounds!
Again, he's not getting punked by bloodthirsters.
The fact that he can stand up to two thirsters for an entire game and still never die should be cause for alarm. This isn't balanced.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
That was meant to be sarcasm. It's basically a game of one upsmanship. I win because I do this, but then I do this to counter that so I win, well then I add this so I win, fine then I add this and THIS so that you don't win. Eventually you end up with ALLPOWERFULLUBERMAN! He costs 2001 points and wins all games instantly, provided you don't fail your deepstrike roll.
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
Imperial Deceit wrote: That was meant to be sarcasm. It's basically a game of one upsmanship. I win because I do this, but then I do this to counter that so I win, well then I add this so I win, fine then I add this and THIS so that you don't win. Eventually you end up with ALLPOWERFULLUBERMAN! He costs 2001 points and wins all games instantly, provided you don't fail your deepstrike roll.
But its balanced because there's a chance he might actually lose.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Bloodthirsters are WS 10 so I might not even land a hit 1/3 of the time....
The Bloodthirsters will save most of the wounds that get through with their 4+ FNP's.
The Bloodthirsters would be charging and I may not be mistaken but with another weapon they gain another point of S. So that means S:8. Did you account for that?
He probably wont be Berserk when he gets attacked....
This all comes to mean he's tarpitted the entire game and probably wont win.
What's with this 2 at most gak?
He could be killed the first turn of combat with the bloodthirsters not losing a single wound.
My local Daemon player seems to be blessed by the Dark Gods and rolls 6's half the time when I play him.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Burning wrote: Blacksails, It's pointless trying to have any reasonable discussion with ThePrimordial. You are best off commenting on other posters ideas.
Apparently he doesn't have better things to do, and I've already weakened it with him going Berserk probably not happening in a normal game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 19:04:02
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Bloodthirsters are WS 10 so I might not even land a hit 1/3 of the time....
The Bloodthirsters will save most of the wounds that get through with their 4+ FNP's.
The Bloodthirsters would be charging and I may not be mistaken but with another weapon they gain another point of S. So that means S:8. Did you account for that?
He probably wont be Berserk when he gets attacked....
This all comes to mean he's tarpitted the entire game and probably wont win.
What's with this 2 at most gak?
He could be killed the first turn of combat with the bloodthirsters not losing a single wound.
My local Daemon player seems to be blessed by the Dark Gods and rolls 6's half the time when I play him.....
All of my math was based on your original character and using the stats of a thirster exactly as you described. I even game them an extra three attacks on the charge, as per your house rule. My math is absolutely right using the stats and rules both units had when you used them as a benchmark.
Now you're changing your character and the thirsters load out, which obviously changes the math.
So please don't say my math is wrong. You've now changed a bunch of rules and assumptions, which will mean new math.
But you seem to have a hard time actually discussing points and acknowledging other peoples' feedback.
I'll just leave you with this; if you're comparing him favourably to two bloodthirsters, shouldn't he cost close to two bloodthirsters?
Food for thought, but yeah, I'm done trying to help you, again. Nothing I say will get through to you.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Imperial Deceit wrote: That was meant to be sarcasm. It's basically a game of one upsmanship. I win because I do this, but then I do this to counter that so I win, well then I add this so I win, fine then I add this and THIS so that you don't win. Eventually you end up with ALLPOWERFULLUBERMAN! He costs 2001 points and wins all games instantly, provided you don't fail your deepstrike roll.
But its balanced because there's a chance he might actually lose.
Oh no he still will win, just not instantly. I will be on turn 2 when he comes in automatically.
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
Bloodthirsters are WS 10 so I might not even land a hit 1/3 of the time....
The Bloodthirsters will save most of the wounds that get through with their 4+ FNP's.
The Bloodthirsters would be charging and I may not be mistaken but with another weapon they gain another point of S. So that means S:8. Did you account for that?
He probably wont be Berserk when he gets attacked....
This all comes to mean he's tarpitted the entire game and probably wont win.
What's with this 2 at most gak?
He could be killed the first turn of combat with the bloodthirsters not losing a single wound.
My local Daemon player seems to be blessed by the Dark Gods and rolls 6's half the time when I play him.....
All of my math was based on your original character and using the stats of a thirster exactly as you described. I even game them an extra three attacks on the charge, as per your house rule. My math is absolutely right using the stats and rules both units had when you used them as a benchmark.
Now you're changing your character and the thirsters load out, which obviously changes the math.
So please don't say my math is wrong. You've now changed a bunch of rules and assumptions, which will mean new math.
But you seem to have a hard time actually discussing points and acknowledging other peoples' feedback.
I'll just leave you with this; if you're comparing him favourably to two bloodthirsters, shouldn't he cost close to two bloodthirsters?
Food for thought, but yeah, I'm done trying to help you, again. Nothing I say will get through to you.
I could give him a 5+ FNP & a 4+ IWND and keep the cost. You think of saying that?
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
Actually, you still cannot take feel no pain rolls againt things that cause instant death, even with eternl warrior. Also, this could only possibly be balanced in apocalypse, only because of D weapons. Furthermore, though these rules do accurately represent guts, it is terribly broken, the only thing that could kill him is asurmen or jaws. Or a mss overlord or terreract labyrinth.
ThePrimordial wrote: I'm a huge Berserk fan as most could probably tell by the avatar and I always wondered what would Guts be like as a Space Marine?
|.WS.|.BS.|.S.|.T.|.W.|.I..|.A.|.Ld.|.Sv.| Points:425
|...7..|..5....|.5.|.5.|..4..|.7.|.6..|.10.|.3+.|
Special Rules: 4+ It Will Not Die, EW, 4+ Feel No Pain, Fearless, Fear, Fleet, Preferred Enemy (Daemons)
Wargear: Berserker Armor, Dragon Slayer, Hand Cannon,Repeating Crossbow
Berserker Armor: Every turn Guts takes a Leadership test on 2D6 if he passes nothing happens if he fails his armor save becomes a 2+, he gains a 5+ Invul, Rerolls failed Feel No Pain saves & It Will Not Die rolls gains Rage,and must charge the nearest unit every turn. You have no control over the movement. He moves in a straight line the direction that means he gets to the target the quickest.
DragonSlayer: The sheer length and size of the sword means that Guts can attack enemies up to 2 inches away. It grants an additional +2 strength when in combat, and is AP:2
Hand Cannon: This is a one use weapon with the following profile: S:9, AP:2, Assault 1, 36 inch range
Repeating Crossbow: This is a ranged weapon with the following profile: S:3, AP:5, Assault 4, 24 inch range
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
Actually, you still cannot take feel no pain rolls againt things that cause instant death, even with eternl warrior. Also, this could only possibly be balanced in apocalypse, only because of D weapons. Furthermore, though these rules do accurately represent guts, it is terribly broken, the only thing that could kill him is asurmen or jaws. Or a mss overlord or terreract labyrinth.
So the Swarmlord would still tear him apart 100% of the time..... I probably should have mentioned it but this was never intended to be used in a normal game if the points cost comparable to a primarch wasn't obvious enough.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 19:41:46
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
To be fair, the version I costed has no Eternal Warrior (unless I missed it) and EW is 35pts on its own, which would bring it to the 365pt mark. Ok, I missed it - this thing wants to be at least 365pts, meaning it's 40pts under at 325.
Also, by my fuzzy math (i.e. - done in my head on the fly) it will fail roughly 1/3 of the time on 4D4. So I costed it and divided by 3.
I mean, I can cost up his older / original version if you want, I think it's in some quotes floating about.
Also - as well as my linear '+/-10' base system has worked, I'm not sure if it's... robust enough for some things - so I'm going to create a non-linear guide. I'm pleased people appreciate my efforts. ^-^
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 19:34:07
Wargear:
- Frag and Krak Grenades
- Artificer Armor
- Lightning Raptor Mount "Ego" (Thunderwolf mount rules)
- Pair of Mastercrafted Powerfists
- Iron Halo
Special Rules:
- Independant Character
- ATSKNF - Pressing Strikes
- Field Marshall
- Eternal Warrior
Warlord Trait: I PUT A HOLE IN THAT *bwomp* - Friendly models add 1 to armor penetration rolls against fortifications, or other destructible buildings
Cost Breakdown John Tronn
Spoiler:
Wolf Lord Base - 100 pts
Lightning Raptor "Ego" - 45 pts
Mastercrafted Pair of Powerfists - 45 pts
Iron Halo - 25 pts
Artificer Armor - 15 pts
Pressing Strikes - 5 pts
Field Marshall - 10 pts
Eternal Warrior - 35 pts
I PUT A HOLE IN THAT *bwomp* - 10 pts
TOTAL: 290 points
curran12 wrote: Costed 'right' does not make it magically not overpowered. It is still a "I WIN BECAUSE I AM A FAN OF THIS ANIME" button.
Yeah, I've spent a great many lengthy posts trying to explain that throwing points at something doens't magically make it balanced.
While I greatly respect Ovion for all his posts here and sound costing methods, I think it falls a little short for this monstrosity.
The problem with Primordial's character is that every ability gets better exponentially from the ability before it.
From a strictly durability perspective, ignoring all offensive capabilities, I'll try and explain why this character can never truly be balanced regardless of points.
First, T5. This is always a nice start for a unit. Multi-wound character automatically become immune to ID from anything less than S10, which is pretty significant. Now we add EW, which effectively plugs that hole. Now his T5 is really nice, because he's now immune to all ID and shrugs off small arms easily.
But here's where it gets silly powerful. He has FnP, and an improved version. Because of his EW rule, he can take his FnP test against ANY wound. There is literally no way to stop him from taking that roll, which increases his durability by 50%, on top of T5. Right, this is an almost unprecedented level of durability that no other unit can match short of huge 300+ pts MC and greater daemons and such.
But wait, there's more. His starts with a respectable 3+ save, but with the berserker armour rule, its nearly guaranteed to become a 2+/5++. Rolling 4D6 on Ld10 just about guarantees he'll 'fail' and get the improved version. So now we have a T5, 2+/5++ FnP (4+) monster. This already is the single most durable character I've ever seen a rule published for in standard 40k games.
Now, if that's not already well in the realm of obscenity, he can also re-roll his FnP, which is already improved to 4+. My head is spinning trying to even start to figure out how many shots from various weapons it would take to cause even a single wound. I mean, it would take over 12 lascannon equivalent shots in a single round to cause one singular wound. This improves dramatically for anything that isn't AP2 or S7 and up. I can't become to fathom how difficult this would be to kill in a normal size match (1850-2000ish).
Oh but wait. The icing on the cake has yet to come.
It has IWND. Yeah. Every third wound you cause is essentially ignored.
But wait, there's more.
He can re-roll IWND rolls
I have never seen something remotely as durable as this...thing. It is quite literally un-killable in a standard game of 40k.
And here's my point. You can't effectively cost something when each rule you add makes the one before it exponentially better. It becomes not a question of how much each ability costs, but rather what multiplier do you use. You can't simply tag each ability with a +10 here, or a +20 there. Each one of those rules improves all the others, so they need to be considered when costing, not separately in a vacuum.
In short, from a durability perspective alone, points can't balance this. It is so far beyond the realm of normal that it fundamentally breaks any game you'd play him in.
Oh, and lets not forget he's also an absolute beatstick at range and in melee. No weaknesses, hilariously good at everything, and nigh unkillable.
No amount of points can make this balanced. You'll respond the same way you always do, by pointing out some alleged weakness, and then claiming his cost is fair because he's expensive.
Congratulations, you have broken 40k.
To be fair, the version I costed has no Eternal Warrior (unless I missed it) and EW is 35pts on its own, which would bring it to the 365pt mark. Ok, I missed it - this thing wants to be at least 365pts, meaning it's 40pts under at 325.
Also, by my fuzzy math (i.e. - done in my head on the fly) it will fail roughly 1/3 of the time on 4D4. So I costed it and divided by 3.
I mean, I can cost up his older / original version if you want, I think it's in some quotes floating about.
Also - as well as my linear '+/-10' base system has worked, I'm not sure if it's... robust enough for some things - so I'm going to create a non-linear guide.
It's not robust enough.
I also fixed a lot of things a couple posts above. Now he doesn't go berserk every game, but if he does.......yeah.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Mr. Burning wrote: Blacksails, It's pointless trying to have any reasonable discussion with ThePrimordial. You are best off commenting on other posters ideas.
Like mine! I've posted my character her 3 times, and made my own thread for him, and twice, from 2 different people, the best response I got was 'What aspect is he for?'. I'm sorry if im sounding selfish and all, but to me it seems that to get a response of any of the people on this thread who's opinion I give a dam about,See Backsail, McNinja and Ovion or any other poster with but a degree of understanding of the balance of the game (you know who you are) I have to create a character who is OP as all Gak with ridiculous special rules or simply be infamous with making decidedly OP characters (And HE knows who HE is). One more time, then I'll have to make him OP as heck
Phoenix Lord Zandros, The bladed Hurricane. 240pts? Could Someone help, I don't know how to point up a phoenix lord when the only equivalent are other Lords
Ws8
Bs8
S4
T4
W3
I8
A4
Ld10
Save 2+
For the record, bump in stats aren't because this phoenix lord is better then the others. Its because I think all phoenix lords should have this stat line. They should be better in combat then a lowly Archon and at least match an assassin.
Wargear. Phoenix armour, plasma grenades,
Remnants of glory
Slicing Orbs of Zandros. Ancient, battered silver orbs are inset into the phoenix lords amour. When battle calls these orbs, beckoned by Zandros's psykic stimuli, begin to orbit Zandros akin to a small moon. Zandros then orders the orbs to fly amongst the seething masses of interlopers and then they explode in a scintillating flash of blades which leaves enemies in bloody chunks.
Range18 Str 5 Ap -assault 2,blast, pinning, rending.
or Range Melee, Strength +1, Ap -, rending, Bladed rotation*
* Zandros inflicts an automatic hit on any enemy model in base contact with him, as well as making his normal attacks.
Warlord traint: Mark of the incomparable hunter
Special Rules:
Ancient doom, battle focus, Eternal warrior, Fearless, Fear, Fleet, Independent character, Psyker (mastery level 2), SoulFire.
SoulFire.Every phoenix lord's armour invariably contains the souls of thousands of powerful exarchs, each spirit coalesced into the greater spirit of the armour much akin to a miniature infinity circuit. This gives the phoenix lord a deep well of psykic power to draw upon with surrounds the Lords warp shadow in blazing soulfire which absorbs and reflects foul Magiks,
The phoenix lord has the Adamantium Will USR and for each successful deny the witch attempted rolled by the phoenix lord the psyker that attempted the power must take a blinding test, as well as any enemy daemons or psykers within 6 inches.
Can only choose powers on the telekinesis table.
Exarch Powers
Fast shot, Course of blades*
Grants a 4+ cover save to Exarch against any weapon blow strength 8, by way of the mystical orbs blocking the blow or obscuring the target
Oh, and before you ask, he is the phoenix lord of the Slicing Orbs of Zandros aspect warriors, who would also be battle-kines who use the same sort of weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 19:44:26
Mr. Burning wrote: Blacksails, It's pointless trying to have any reasonable discussion with ThePrimordial. You are best off commenting on other posters ideas.
Like mine! I've posted my character her 3 times, and made my own thread for him, and twice, from 2 different people, the best response I got was 'What aspect is he for?'. I'm sorry if im sounding selfish and all, but to me it seems that to get a response of any of the people on this thread who's opinion I give a dam about,See Backsail, McNinja and Ovion or any other poster with but a degree of understanding of the balance of the game (you know who you are) I have to create a character who is OP as all Gak with ridiculous special rules or simply be infamous with making decidedly OP characters (And HE knows who HE is). One more time, then I'll have to make him OP as heck
Phoenix Lord Zandros, The bladed Hurricane. 240pts? Could Someone help, I don't know how to point up a phoenix lord when the only equivalent are other Lords
Ws8
Bs8
S4
T4
W3
I8
A4
Ld10
Save 2+
For the record, bump in stats aren't because this phoenix lord is better then the others. Its because I think all phoenix lords should have this stat line. They should be better in combat then a lowly Archon and at least match an assassin.
Wargear. Phoenix armour, plasma grenades,
Remnants of glory
Slicing Orbs of Zandros. Ancient, battered silver orbs are inset into the phoenix lords amour. When battle calls these orbs, beckoned by Zandros's psykic stimuli, begin to orbit Zandros akin to a small moon. Zandros then orders the orbs to fly amongst the seething masses of interlopers and then they explode in a scintillating flash of blades which leaves enemies in bloody chunks.
Range18 Str 5 Ap -assault 2,blast, pinning, rending.
or Range Melee, Strength +1, Ap -, rending, Bladed rotation*
* Zandros inflicts an automatic hit on any enemy model in base contact with him, as well as making his normal attacks.
Warlord traint: Mark of the incomparable hunter
Special Rules:
Ancient doom, battle focus, Eternal warrior, Fearless, Fear, Fleet, Independent character, Psyker (mastery level 2), SoulFire.
SoulFire.Every phoenix lord's armour invariably contains the souls of thousands of powerful exarchs, each spirit coalesced into the greater spirit of the armour much akin to a miniature infinity circuit. This gives the phoenix lord a deep well of psykic power to draw upon with surrounds the Lords warp shadow in blazing soulfire which absorbs and reflects foul Magiks,
The phoenix lord has the Adamantium Will USR and for each successful deny the witch attempted rolled by the phoenix lord the psyker that attempted the power must take a blinding test, as well as any enemy daemons or psykers within 6 inches.
Can only choose powers on the telekinesis table.
Exarch Powers
Fast shot, Course of blades*
Grants a 4+ cover save to Exarch against any weapon blow strength 8, by way of the mystical orbs blocking the blow or obscuring the target
It's fine for the points cost. There. There's pretty much nothing wrong with it that's the reason.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Ok, I missed it - this thing wants to be at least 365pts, meaning it's 40pts under at 325.
Also, by my fuzzy math (i.e. - done in my head on the fly) it will fail roughly 1/3 of the time on 4D4. So I costed it and divided by 3.
I mean, I can cost up his older / original version if you want, I think it's in some quotes floating about.
Also - as well as my linear '+/-10' base system has worked, I'm not sure if it's... robust enough for some things - so I'm going to create a non-linear guide.
I'm pleased people appreciate my efforts. ^-^
Yeah, your math is fine, trust me. I have the exact same system in my head when I provide feedback, though yours is more specific than what I personally roll with.
There are quite a bit of people, I'm sure, who are pleased with your constant help in this thread and others.
It is hard to balance the non-linear things. For example, FnP is worth more on a T5 character than a T4 character. But how much more? How does it scale? What about in conjunction with EW? IWND? Its genuinely hard, because when you start stacking complimentary rules, the outcome is greater than the individual rules; you can create some extremely synergistic characters this way, for better or for worse.
Either way, the 40k system is not the best for this kind of work. There's no real formula, unlike several other games where there are actual formulas and rules for building custom everythings.
Oh well, you gotta start analyzing with the numbers, then listen to your gut.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
