Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How about a Seraphim squad with 2x duel flamer and a 10 Sister Ret Squad with 4xHB. You could probably fit in another BSS and transports for the existing units too. 600 pts can bring a fair bit to the table, if you've got the models (which is always my problem).

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
How about a Seraphim squad with 2x duel flamer and a 10 Sister Ret Squad with 4xHB. You could probably fit in another BSS and transports for the existing units too. 600 pts can bring a fair bit to the table, if you've got the models (which is always my problem).

D

I have the models to bring another BSS squad (with rhino support). However, here is my dilemma. I feel at 1850 3 troops is marginally enough, but not really. But the BSS squads rarely do much other than camp on objectives. So, I tend to gravitate towards what adds more killing power to my list.

I may try out the seraphim squad. It would be nice to give Celestine hit & run. What is the common deployment method for seraphim and celestine? On the board or deep striking?

 Green is Best! wrote:
I may try out the seraphim squad. It would be nice to give Celestine hit & run. What is the common deployment method for seraphim and celestine? On the board or deep striking?

Always on the board.

Depending on my opponent, I like to deep strike my Seraphim if they are well-entrenched. But I also run 2 full squads of them, so I have some safety and redundancy in case the worst happens.

 curran12 wrote:
Depending on my opponent, I like to deep strike my Seraphim if they are well-entrenched. But I also run 2 full squads of them, so I have some safety and redundancy in case the worst happens.

You can get 24+d6 inches across the board with Celestine and Seraphim by Turn 2. That's a pretty good threat range. I suppose if you're playing hammer and anvil or got severely out deployed, you could be out of reach at that point, but still... I just don't see the risks of deep strike as ever being worth it for a unit that begs to be on the board.

Has anyone gotten much table time against daemon-based FMC lists?

I have NOT played against them at all, and am likely to face one in an upcoming tournament (the meta here is apparently saturated with daemons). While I can think about some strategies on paper... I only have an answer to 1, maybe 2 princes/greater daemons before they are crashing into things and making my ladies quite sad.

Shooting is likely to hurt or kill one (assuming I can get lucky enough to ground it), and Jacobus and company can mulch a second... but after that... yeesh - I feel like I have no solutions to the 3rd or 4th (let alone anything else in the list).

 Green is Best! wrote:

 evildrcheese wrote:
How about a Seraphim squad with 2x duel flamer and a 10 Sister Ret Squad with 4xHB. You could probably fit in another BSS and transports for the existing units too. 600 pts can bring a fair bit to the table, if you've got the models (which is always my problem).

D

I have the models to bring another BSS squad (with rhino support). However, here is my dilemma. I feel at 1850 3 troops is marginally enough, but not really. But the BSS squads rarely do much other than camp on objectives. So, I tend to gravitate towards what adds more killing power to my list.

I may try out the seraphim squad. It would be nice to give Celestine hit & run. What is the common deployment method for seraphim and celestine? On the board or deep striking?

Perhaps you should reconsider how you use your Troops, then?

I've had great luck with saying "Forget my home field objectives. The only objectives that matter are ones with enemy models holding them."

Send the Sisters up the board with everything else and use Retributors and Exorcists to keep your objectives clear of enemy drop pods, etc. Force the enemy off their camped objectives and take them away from the enemy. This is a little like the Annihilation tactic - building an army purely to win by tabling the opponent - except somewhat more reliable, because you only need to hold 1 point more than the enemy to win, so if you take one of their objectives and kill their warlord, and they have 2 objectives, you've won - Celestine won't die in a game (she is your warlord, right?) and you get a free point for Linebreaker just for holding an enemy objective.

 pretre wrote:

You can get 24+d6 inches across the board with Celestine and Seraphim by Turn 2. That's a pretty good threat range. I suppose if you're playing hammer and anvil or got severely out deployed, you could be out of reach at that point, but still... I just don't see the risks of deep strike as ever being worth it for a unit that begs to be on the board.

It's contextual, imo. The board factors a lot into it, as a squad of Seraphim dramatically loses killing power once the casualties start rolling in, and if I don't have a nice method of LOS blocking, I figure the risks of the squad getting shot up en route to their target to be about the same as a deep strike.

That's not to say you should never deploy em, it really comes down to what I'm fighting and what they are using. I'll happily embrace the risk of bad deep strikes against a Tau gunline, as running up to that line is a way more dangerous situation. On the other hand, if it is an Ork horde, having the Seraphim on the ground and working as a troubleshooting unit has way more benefits than dropping them. That said, I tend to be very aggressive and ambitious with my deep striking Seaphim, so I think my risk tolerance for that is higher than yours. Has it bitten me before? Totally and I'm not gonna deny that. But I'm of the mindset that a Seraphim drop is one of the best shock weapons the SoB have, and they can get very disruptive very fast.

I like to use the cheapest cannoness with her HQ squad, park them on the Quad gun with 3 heavy bolters. I already got 3 excorcists so this adds a bit more dakka.

 curran12 wrote:
It's contextual, imo. The board factors a lot into it, as a squad of Seraphim dramatically loses killing power once the casualties start rolling in, and if I don't have a nice method of LOS blocking, I figure the risks of the squad getting shot up en route to their target to be about the same as a deep strike.

The risk isn't that they aren't getting shot up. The risk is that they are off the table. Celestine off the table is just bad. She needs to be on the table, drawing attention and fire as soon as possible. Every shot they put into her is a wasted shot and you want those shots to keep coming. Yes, the Seraphim are great and all but they are just there to escort Celestine and hopefully drop a bunch of flamer templates on someone. If I was going to deep strike Seraphim, I would never do it with Celestine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I like to use the cheapest cannoness with her HQ squad, park them on the Quad gun with 3 heavy bolters. I already got 3 excorcists so this adds a bit more dakka.

So you are paying ~195 points for 3 non-scoring Heavy Bolters and someone to fire the quad-gun. Ouch.

If you're going to spend that much, just get a sister squad and give them Jacobus or Kyrinov. Then they are scoring, tough to dislodge and still have a BS5 quad-gun. You lose 2 Heavy Bolters, but the scoring and FNP or Fearless more than makes up for it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Perhaps you should reconsider how you use your Troops, then?

I've had great luck with saying "Forget my home field objectives. The only objectives that matter are ones with enemy models holding them."

Send the Sisters up the board with everything else and use Retributors and Exorcists to keep your objectives clear of enemy drop pods, etc. Force the enemy off their camped objectives and take them away from the enemy. This is a little like the Annihilation tactic - building an army purely to win by tabling the opponent - except somewhat more reliable, because you only need to hold 1 point more than the enemy to win, so if you take one of their objectives and kill their warlord, and they have 2 objectives, you've won - Celestine won't die in a game (she is your warlord, right?) and you get a free point for Linebreaker just for holding an enemy objective.

This is definitely something to consider. This last tournament, I did not have the points or slots for a Retributor squad, so I had to leave one behind to man the quad gun. However, I have toyed with putting them in rhinos to do exactly what you are saying. My only concern there is the added easy kill points. I guess it really depends on what type of army you are playing. If they are going to cower on the back edge like the filthy xeno scum they are, you definitely need to advance. But, if they are going to come to you (orks, nids, etc.) I think you can just start off on the front edge of your deployment zone and slowly fall back while giving them the Emperor's deliverance with boltguns to the face.

Also, if playing against cron air or other highly mobile troops choices (IG, etc). You can't just ignore your own objectives.

Obviously tactics will need reconsidering in circumstances, but we're one of the few armies that can still do mechanized blitzkrieg, and with Necrons at least retributors have an easy enough time forcing those flying warriors back into reserve.

Yeah I tried DSing my Sereaphim recently, it was far from successful. Running them behind Rhinos seems much more sensible in most situations.

D

Deep Striking is risky, but can work.

At 2000+ points with double force organizations I am wanting to try an "in your face list".

Buy an Aegis defence line with Comms Relay. Turn 2 you have a good chance of getting almost everything on the board.

Two avenger strike fighters, at least one Seraphim group for Celestine and fill up your points left (after 4 troups and other hq) with as many dominions and seraphims as you can.

Overwhelming your opponent's side of the table on turn 2 would be fun to play. Here's a 2500 points list I am planning on eventually trying.

Celestine
Kyrinov

10 Sisters in Repressor. Flamer, CombiFlamer, Heavy Flamer
10 Sisters in Repressor. Flamer, CombiFlamer, Heavy Flamer
10 Sisters. Heavy Bolter, Flamer
10 Sisters. Heavy Bolter, Flamer

7 Seraphims. Hand Flamers x 2, MeltaBombs
5 Dominions in Immolator. Meltagun x 2. Heavy Flamer on tank.
5 Dominions in Immolator. Meltagun x 2. Heavy Flamer on tank.
5 Dominions in Immolator. Meltagun x 2. Heavy Flamer on tank.
5 Dominions in Immolator. Meltagun x 2. Heavy Flamer on tank.
5 Dominions in Immolator. Meltagun x 2. Heavy Flamer on tank.

Avenger Strike Fighter
Avenger Strike Fighter
Exorcist

Aegis Line with Comms relay.

That comes up to 2380 so still 120 points to play around so maybe a beefed up retributor squad or with some point shifting a second exorcist.

Kyrinov babysits 2 sister squads behind line to hold home objective and you have 2 repressors going forward turn one, hopefully staying in cover or out of LoS.

Turn 2 should see you getting almost everything on the table. My gaming club is small so only 4x4 tables. There's going to be nowhere to hide from outflanking Immolators.

Playing 2500 pts on a 4x4.. that's going to be a massacre!

Voldrak wrote:
Buy an Aegis defence line with Comms Relay. Turn 2 you have a good chance of getting almost everything on the board.

And you give up one of your only sources of anti-air in your list.

Turn 2 should see you getting almost everything on the table. My gaming club is small so only 4x4 tables. There's going to be nowhere to hide from outflanking Immolators.

Wow. 2500 points each on a 4x4? That isn't even 40k anymore. That's just insanity.

Yeah. Small tables, but still lots of terrain to block LoS or provide cover.

Still, there usually is not a whole lot of stuff left on the board by turn 4

Giving up on the quad gun can be painful, but two Avengers should be able to deal with enemy flyers assuming they live past one turn themselves.

Could also get a second defensive line with quad gun for the 120 points left.

Voldrak wrote:
Giving up on the quad gun can be painful, but two Avengers should be able to deal with enemy flyers assuming they live past one turn themselves.

Avengers are guaranteed to live past turn 1 since they can't be on the board until turn 2.
I have found Avengers pretty disappointing for anti-air. They are only AV12/10/10 and go down pretty quick against any other flyer.

Could also get a second defensive line with quad gun for the 120 points left.

Or a Bastion with Icarus. Elevation is awesome.

 pretre wrote:
Yes, the Seraphim are great and all but they are just there to escort Celestine and hopefully drop a bunch of flamer templates on someone. If I was going to deep strike Seraphim, I would never do it with Celestine.

I think you're dramatically downplaying the usefulness of Seras and Celestine. It's a two-way street, in that both units improve each other, the Seras aren't just ablative wounds for Celestine. If that were the case you'd just be wasting your time running them together because Celestine has no use for extra wounds.

With Deep Strike you can dictate where your opponent has to deal with your threat much more so than with a deployed unit. On top of that, if your strike is even remotely accurate (which is not hard to do) whatever you land near WILL DIE. So what you've done is traded 2 turns of Celestine getting shot at (assuming she didn't die and not get back up in those turns) for putting a killy unit that's actually pretty hard to take down into some soft spot of your opponent's army. Worst case there is that you swap units (Seras for whatever they landed near) and now Celestine is freelancing in the enemy's backfield.

Curran12 was right in that it IS contextual. There are loads of scenarios where you want to stay grounded, but there are lots of others where a calculated risk can really gut your opponent's plans. (And obviously the proliferation of Interceptor weapons has dampened this strategy a bit as well.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel like we have this discussion every 6 months or so.

DSing is still probably vilable in some situations, but considering the short range it's unlikely to bear fruit much of the time. Also the weaponry, chance of scatter and nature of the act of faith means it's not great against vechicles.

So yes, can still be useful but lack of decent payoffs often mean it isn't viable.

D

Amerikon wrote:
I think you're dramatically downplaying the usefulness of Seras and Celestine. It's a two-way street, in that both units improve each other, the Seras aren't just ablative wounds for Celestine. If that were the case you'd just be wasting your time running them together because Celestine has no use for extra wounds.

Celestine needs extra wounds to suck up S6+ AP2.

With Deep Strike you can dictate where your opponent has to deal with your threat much more so than with a deployed unit. On top of that, if your strike is even remotely accurate (which is not hard to do) whatever you land near WILL DIE. So what you've done is traded 2 turns of Celestine getting shot at (assuming she didn't die and not get back up in those turns) for putting a killy unit that's actually pretty hard to take down into some soft spot of your opponent's army. Worst case there is that you swap units (Seras for whatever they landed near) and now Celestine is freelancing in the enemy's backfield.

2+ turns of Celestine not absorbing shots for your army and getting in place is a big deal. Celestine is a fire magnet. You WANT her getting shot at because every shot at her is a wasted one. If you DS her, even on turn 2, she can't get into hand to hand until turn 3. The whole point of Seras and Celestine is more flamers and Hit and Run. If she is on the board, she's using Hit and Run on turn 2.

I feel like we have this discussion every 6 months or so.

We do. And my opinion hasn't changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of playing with ideas, I am going to a FW allowed tournament that is happening in August... (1850)

Here's my three current ideas for mulling.

List 1: Pure Mech Sisters
List 2: Drive me forward so I can shoot them! SOB/IG
List 3: More traditional Mixed Blob/Sisters

List 1: Pure Mech Sisters
Saint Celestine
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Melta, Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino (Search)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Melta, Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor (Search)
Dominions (5) with Flamer x2, Combi-Flamer, TL-MM Immo (Dozer, Search)
Dominions (5) with Flamer x2, Combi-Flamer, TL-MM Immo (Dozer, Search)
Dominions (10) with Melta x2, Flamer x2, Meltabomb, Repressor (Search)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

List 2: Drive me forward so I can shoot them! SOB/IG
6 AV13 front hulls, 1 AV14, 2 AV12. Just drive forward onto their doorstep and laugh maniacally.

Saint Celestine
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor
Dominion Squad (10) with 2x Melta, 2xFlamer, Combi-Melta in Repressor
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Primaris Psyker (Jumps in with Infantry or PCS depending on powers)
PCS with 3 Flamers (In Vendetta)
Infantry with Melta, AC in Chimera (ML/HF)
Infantry with Melta, AC in Chimera (ML/HF)
Vendetta
Leman Russ Demolisher

List 3: More traditional Mixed Blob/Sisters
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor (Searchlight)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Repressor (Searchlight)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributors x6, 4 HB (In Bastion)
Bastion with Icarus
Primaris Psyker (With Sabre or Blob)
PCS with 3xFlamer (Vendetta)
4 x Infantry with Power Axe, Autocannon
Sabre with TL-Lascannon (On top of bastion)
Vendetta
Manticore

Does the Sabre platform fit on top of the Bastion? I know I was depressed to find out HWTs did not fit up there :(

Honestly though, depending on the missions I think option 2 will be the best bet. People cannot deal with AV13 or 14 well these days, and you have plenty of shots to ground FMCs before blasting them to pieces. I think option 2 wins.

I feel like we have this discussion every 6 months or so.

We do. And my opinion hasn't changed.

Yeah, I just feel like there should be a counterpoint whenever someone says "NEVER Deepstrike".

Also, run List 2. It looks like fun.

Lol I'm trying that Friday. Good to know we are the same kind of crazy. Flyers? Who cares!

If this is true, retributors just got broken:

Vengeance Weapons Battery $50
-The box comes with two Vengeance Weapons Batteries. Each can be armed with either a Punisher Gatling Cannon or a Battle Cannon
-The rules for both Apocalypse and Warhammer 40k are included in the box

Firestorm Redoubt $65
-Large fortification that has a pair of Quad-Linked Icarus Lascanons
-The rules for both Apocalypse and Warhammer 40k are included in the box

Aquila Strongpoint $115
-Has two options: Macro-Cannon or Vortex Missile
-Macro Cannon fire at a long range with an enormous blast radius. Can even target flyers.
-Vortex Missile comes with 7 Vortex Missles, which are bigger versions of a Vortex Grenade, but with infinite range
-The rules for both Apocalypse and Warhammer 40k are included in the box

What's that you say? 52 S5 rending shots? Yeah....

...comes with two Vengeance Weapons Batteries...

So we're thinking that two batteries will count as a single fortification? Even one Punisher is probably worth it though.

Amerikon wrote:

...comes with two Vengeance Weapons Batteries...

So we're thinking that two batteries will count as a single fortification? Even one Punisher is probably worth it though.

Exactly my current thought. So two VWB, hoping that they are gun emplacements like the quad-gun/etc. So 10 Rets with 4 HB, Simulacrum and those things. Yikes.

When you absolutely, positively need to end EVERYTHING.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
When you absolutely, positively need to end EVERYTHING.

Seriously... It's crazy. 52 S5 shots is just a lot of hurt.