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 Sarouan wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


What manure. GW might have made Mordheim, but like all the late 90's SGs the idea they "supported" it after the first couple of years is sheer farce.

Compare with the number of years and everything Mantic did while "supporting" KoW. GW would still be doing much more than Mantic in that field, because of their sheer size alone - not even talking about the fact they have their own shops advertising solely their products. And yes, for a while, Mordheim products were sold and even played in these stores as well. It was really easy to recruit during these times, and I have no doubt the main reason there are still Mordheim players around is because GW, no matter how little you think they did to support the line, still did what only GW can do. Get my point now ?

I got your point the first time, I just don't agree it's valid. Mordheim is still around because it's a great game in a unique setting, and that would be true regardless of who first published it and when. Once you pass a certain threshold of people knowing about you whether you're a big company or a small company and how long you support the product only have an impact on how quickly something will grow, not whether it will grow at all, or whether it will stick around after you're done with it. Mantic are smaller than GW, but they're not some bloke publishing home-made rules on a Yahoo group, they have sufficient reach to ensure enough people will hear about and pick up their games that whether or not they grow and last is much more down to people being willing to put in the effort to get things going in their own area.

Put it another way - if Mordheim had been boring garbage, the fact GW published it and supported it for a brief time wouldn't mean anything, it would have died the moment they stopped. If Mantic's stuff is good enough, it won't matter that they don't have a chain of retail stores, it'll find an audience and stick around through word of mouth.

GW doesn't make a single game that could stand on its own merits without the big brand name, and never has. If any GW game were published by a different company, it would be dead on arrival. Mordheim still exists because people are desperate to cling on to the GW name at all costs.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
GW doesn't make a single game that could stand on its own merits without the big brand name, and never has. If any GW game were published by a different company, it would be dead on arrival. Mordheim still exists because people are desperate to cling on to the GW name at all costs.

More to the setting than anything else. Could you use other skirmish supplements to play in Mordheim? Yeah. But you would have to adapt everything. Why do that when theres something allready done? That level of skirmish play is very much narrative so it does not matter how better other games are if their setting isn't that appealing.

Mordheim and Necromunda are Skirmish but they are a absolutely different kind of skirmish experience than Killteam, Malifaux or Infinity.


At the end of the day I play warhammer games because I love warhammer and the games are fun for me. I play LOTR because I love LOTR and I love the game.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Put it another way - if Mordheim had been boring garbage, the fact GW published it and supported it for a brief time wouldn't mean anything, it would have died the moment they stopped.

Rules in Mordheim are awful, period. The reason why people still play it is because of nostalgia, the GW Old World vibe and the campaign rules. It's a horrible balanced game, and yet it doesn't matter to people who play. This is the proof that balance alone doesn't matter, that's not why people keep playing.

If Mantic's stuff is good enough, it won't matter that they don't have a chain of retail stores, it'll find an audience and stick around through word of mouth.

It won't because Vanguard is a bland game, in a bland universe (Mantica) from a bland company that doesn't have the manpower to support the game on long term like GW. In five years, you won't hear about it anymore and it will join the piles of other dead med/fan skirmish games. It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.

Mordheim is a narrative game, yes? Which means it appeals to narrative players who are notorious for caring about the setting and not giving a damn about balance? Hmmm. Perhaps chasing balance is not the key to developing a game that will survive long term.

Mantic is developing their setting still. With their adventure game book and their board games, they are really adding a lot to the Mantica experience. If they can create a distinctive feeling for their IP and its many games, I believe that would count more than anything towards keeping gamers coming back, to recapture the feeling.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Mordheim is a narrative game, yes? Which means it appeals to narrative players who are notorious for caring about the setting and not giving a damn about balance? Hmmm. Perhaps chasing balance is not the key to developing a game that will survive long term.

It certainly can be played as such, but I still play it with a group of players who also don't mind to play it quite competitively (and some don't care much about giving a name to their miniatures). Which of course gives quite silly results, yet the people keep playing it for so many years.

You really seem to underestimate the power of nostalgia and the work that GW made at that time - also the Specialist team behind the Town Cryer and all the people who were on the Specialist Games forums.

Mantic is developing their setting still. With their adventure game book and their board games, they are really adding a lot to the Mantica experience. If they can create a distinctive feeling for their IP and its many games, I believe that would count more than anything towards keeping gamers coming back, to recapture the feeling.

They won't. They're unable to do that with Mantica. They just don't have the manpower nor the spark GW has. They don't have the size nor the logistic needed to do a proper work in that field.

Their fantasy setting was always the weakest one. It's a pale copy of WFB that desperatly tries not to look the generic universe it is. They can't hide the fact everything they made from the beginning was merely proxies from the Big G company, and they have real difficulties to cut the ties to that past.

Vanguard backers have started getting shipping notices Mantic seem to have started with small pledges first.

Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis

From Ronnie

All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..

Mantic is dead set to deliver my package on the one week I will be away from home, as is tradition. Element Games has also been sitting on an order for over a month so they can ship it right before I leave.

 Sarouan wrote:
It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.

It it never wanted to have it
GW never had something similar to Vanguard except those RB Appendix Skirmish games no one played.

Mortheim lived from the unique campaign rules, same as Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda and the fact that GW had no other small scale games for gheir IP.
Pic up games ommunities never lasted long for those


That Mortheim is still played has more to do with the old world setting and that specific Mortheim tables, if a community had them, were a lot of work to build and not really suited for other games.

I still play Battlefleet Gothic from time to time. Firestorm Armada was big in the local club and is still played by some, it never took the spot of BFG campaigns (but pic up games)

The plastic Giant pre-orders have started to appear state side. $40 and comes out in January.

 DaveC wrote:
Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis

From Ronnie

All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..

The Snow troll looks very similar to the bones hill giant. Are the prices very different? The reaper one I think is around $9.00.

You can't buy the Snow Troll separately yet you get 2 in a $40 starter.

You'll probably be able to get a regiment of 3 for KoW later at $30

Ok, so price is similar. I like the bones giants but the snow troll looks pretty good.

Reaper Yetis are good for the role too, under £3 each in Bones and they fill up a 40mm base well enough.

I use them as proxies for GW Yhetees which in turn are proxies for KoW Ogre Hunters.

Wow - they look great! I'll have to remember that they're a thing next time I do a reaper order.

 Smokestack wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis

From Ronnie

All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..

The Snow troll looks very similar to the bones hill giant. Are the prices very different? The reaper one I think is around $9.00.

I was thinking that the Snow Troll looks like Wreck It Ralph....



The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

That Mortheim is still played has more to do with the old world setting and that specific Mordheim tables, if a community had them, were a lot of work to build and not really suited for other games.

I very much beg to differ - my groups tend to work off of cardstock terrain, built from PDFs - and most often the terrain goes home with whomever made it for the campaign.

It is mostly the campaign rules that keep me coming back, and which leads me to dust off the rules on a bi-yearly basis. (Alternating with Oldcromunda.)

Some of the kids I taught the game, back when the boxed Mordheim game was in stores, are now playing it with their kids.

Still having trouble believing it's been that long....

But - I agree entirely that the focus of Vanguard is entirely different - Mordheim was about individual bands of treasure hunters, fighting over warp stone.

Vanguard is about small units that operate in support of larger armies - skirmishers, recon forces, and dirty trick units.

The scales are similar, but not the focus.

The Auld Grump

Anybody know when the men at arm's go on general release?

 Sarouan wrote:
It won't because Vanguard is a bland game, in a bland universe (Mantica) from a bland company that doesn't have the manpower to support the game on long term like GW. In five years, you won't hear about it anymore and it will join the piles of other dead med/fan skirmish games. It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.

Then what the feth are you doing here? "Bland" is entirely subjective. Putting aside that we only have an introduction so far. I like it because the rules are good, I find games that are designed well fun. You apparently don't care as much about that.
Which is fine. Really. GW are better at making more flashy games, albiet with worse rules writing. If that's more to your taste then support them instead, have fun playing Sigmar.
Mantic are filling a difference niche to GW, which I think is fantastic!
A: Mantic don't have to take on the giant head on (or really take it on), because their target markets are not quite the same.
B: players with different tastes can play different games, rather than one game trying to please everyone.

They won't. They're unable to do that with Mantica. They just don't have the manpower nor the spark GW has. They don't have the size nor the logistic needed to do a proper work in that field.

Their fantasy setting was always the weakest one. It's a pale copy of WFB that desperatly tries not to look the generic universe it is. They can't hide the fact everything they made from the beginning was merely proxies from the Big G company, and they have real difficulties to cut the ties to that past.

I don't think it's a copy at all. They're both fantasy settings with a lot conflict, well, that's the point. Two things designed for a similar purpose tend to similar. After that, Mantica isn't significantly more similar to The Old World than it is to Shannara, Middle Earth or Faerun. Don't see the "desperate" attempts to look like not primarily a backdrop for games, unless you are referring to putting some eork into it? I actually like Mantica because it's generic old school fantasy, it's a place for fantasy battles like I read about growing up; in that genre I love.

Don't think Mantic are trying to hide their beginnings (don't see why they should be vocal about it either though), more like just moving on. At this stage it appears that Mantic is doing thier own thing in thier own niche and putting more and more into thier own IP.
Mantic have been quite obvious and unapologetic about favouring thier own IP for Vanguard.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Reaper Yetis are good for the role too, under £3 each in Bones and they fill up a 40mm base well enough.

I use them as proxies for GW Yhetees which in turn are proxies for KoW Ogre Hunters.

Spoiler:

Lord Blackfang, Reaper is having a contest on that Yeti Model. If they were painted in 2018, they are eligible.

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/82989-ladystorms-winter-contest-yeti/

Rules:

-- entries must include Reaper Bones 77434

-- any figure which was painted and finished in 2018 is eligible

-- figures that have won a statue level award as a ReaperCon entry are ineligible. This includes a Sophie, Golden Maelee, etc.

-- the deadline for entries is Dec 21, 2018 at 4:23 pm CST

-- you may enter as many times as you like, but only one prize per person will be awarded

-- each entry needs to be uploaded to the appropriate thread. Please attach your entries using the forum uploading feature. We want to make sure they're visible at all times.

-- you may submit between one and four images of each entry. They do not need to be stitched into a single image file.

-- you are allowed to enter miniatures that will also be entered into other contests that might overlap ours.

-- the judges or Reaper reserves the right to remove entries if deemed inappropriate, but we're pretty laid back here and this is just to cover our butts.

-- the judges and Reaper can clarify and amend rules at will.


Prizes:

1st prize $100

2nd prize $50

random drawing prize $20

That is so bizarrely specific! But yea, get some Blackfang

- Salvage

Mantic's fluff may be disappointing, but I have ordered Vanguard for it's rules not it's fluff.

 StygianBeach wrote:
Mantic's fluff may be disappointing, but I have ordered Vanguard for it's rules not it's fluff.

Honestly I feel the fluff is getting better. Basilea is more than just fantasy Constantinople now, and the ice elves are interesting

Let 's see what happens with the Northern Alliance. They and the Nightstalkers are the factions that most interest me in KOW:V. I'm also eager to field the Northern Alliance in standard KOW.

As for Basilea as fantasy Constantinople, I'd actually like a bit more. Just one new unit for them: horse archers. The Sisters P-Lancers need a screening unit. I've not played as Basileans, but against them, and I've shot the P-Lancers off the field all but once (snake-eyes on the Nerve roll).

 lord marcus wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
Mantic's fluff may be disappointing, but I have ordered Vanguard for it's rules not it's fluff.

Honestly I feel the fluff is getting better. Basilea is more than just fantasy Constantinople now, and the ice elves are interesting

 StygianBeach wrote:
Mantic's fluff may be disappointing, but I have ordered Vanguard for it's rules not it's fluff.

Yep, same here. Mantic’s figs are meh at best. The Mantica “setting” might as well not exist. But Mantic has made some fun games and Vanguard looks like it will be another fun game.

something from the Reaper forums

Balgin Stondraeg

Oh they've done a dirty. As I suspected they might.

Astute players might have noticed some glaring omissions from the free warbands pdf faction lists. The Basilean warband list, for example, does not contain an entry for Men at Arms (or the Ogre, Abbess or Dictator).

Stats cards for these will come with the miniatures but they have been intentionally omitted from the rulebook (as the rulebook warband lists are the same as those in the free pdf).

That's slightly annoying as I have a number of fine miniatures from other manufacturers. Mantic have always supported a policy of allowing you to use whatever miniatures you want in their game but now they're holding model profiles back to be supplied with specific figures of their own.

A smart business move but still one that's probably going to be pretty unpopular.

(note I've split the post into paragraphs to make it easier to read from it's original form as a block of text)

can anybody else with the new book comment on this? as it seems a real pain to have this new shiney rulebook already missing things

Per the KS

RULEBOOK – Kickstarter backers will receive a rulebook, containing core rules, background material, a range of varied scenarios and details for character progression in a campaign, along with starter warband lists for Mantic armies

And update 3

we're now pleased to say that the starter warband lists for all the Mantic armies below WILL be in the main Vanguard rulebook.

It looks to me like they included what they promised starter warband rules not full warband rules while it’s a pain to have to rules spread out and not in the main rulebook we got the starter warbands per the KS.

Starter Warbands per Mantics store

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war-vanguard/getting-started.html

The Basileans have the new M@A and list them as crossbowmen as well. The starter warband rules only cover equipping them with crossbows so they are covered just not all options. I guess you could give them a spear for +1 point but what about if the 10 you get are all you need they should have put all options in for the M@A. Edit: actually KS backers probably get the full M@A cards anyway so it only affects those who get the Rulebook for use with other minis.

Edited after a check of the starters on the store

That is super weird for a company whose success it based on other companies' miniatures. I get that you don't get them in the downloadable free rules, but in the main rule book as well? Huh.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find them in the first expansion book.

 DaveC wrote:
Per the KS

RULEBOOK – Kickstarter backers will receive a rulebook, containing core rules, background material, a range of varied scenarios and details for character progression in a campaign, along with starter warband lists for Mantic armies

And update 3

we're now pleased to say that the starter warband lists for all the Mantic armies below WILL be in the main Vanguard rulebook.

It looks to me like they included what they promised starter warband rules not full warband rules while it’s a pain to have to rules spread out and not in the main rulebook we got the starter warbands per the KS.

Starter Warbands per Mantics store

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war-vanguard/getting-started.html

The Basileans have the new M@A and list them as crossbowmen as well. The starter warband rules only cover equipping them with crossbows so they are covered just not all options. I guess you could give them a spear for +1 point but what about if the 10 you get are all you need they should have put all options in for the M@A.

Edited after a check of the starters on the store

ah so no sneaky changes, fair enough Mantic, cheers DaveC