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Mine also arrived today. Halfway through inspection, but the NA and Nightstalker resins arere excellent, the restics are all very good, even the skinny knife arm stalker, and the giant is absolutely mental. Mine has the same problem re: the two part lower torso only just not dry fitting, and my stone walls are also banana shaped. Only criticism so far would be the lack of a third head option for the Snow Trolls, will make KoW regiments a little bit samey.

 DarkBlack wrote:

 kodos wrote:

What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).

You're making the mistake of assuming the all WFB players were like minded. WFB was the only fantasy mass battle game most people would consider for a long time. WFB also tried to "please everyone" to some extent (which did not help the quality of the game at all). Different players of that game liked different things about it. Some liked the setting and and enjoyed the crazy spells, others (like I would have) were in it for the game and tactical challenge. Some of those players were evidently the kind of player KoW is made for and getting them into KoW was a good move. Other players (the kind 9th Age is made for) liked other parts of WFB and are not the kind of player KoW is made for, those are also the kind of players who would be over represented if one polled the opinions of 9th Age players.
Suggesting that it was not worthwhile for Mantic to reach out to WFB refugees because some of the were not the kind of player KoW is made for ignores the other players, the ones Mantic were actually trying to reach.

A third to a half of our large and unwieldy KoW group started as WHFB players - including some that hadn't played since 6th, but still had their Brettonians and Lizardmen. (Mostly SCAdians - they enjoy a diverse knight life.)

We are thinking about splitting the group into two Leagues - with competition between them. But I worry that if one League has poor leadership, it might collapse. On the other hand, with over thirty players, it is a pain in the butt to give everyone a chance to keep up with the League.

On the other, other hand, we already have a Junior League, so... who knows. (Junior League will be trying out Vanguard next month - starting fresh, and increasing the points each week.)

The Auld Grump - plus, it gives the kids something to add to their Christmas lists... if they are good little boys, girls, and goblins.


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 NTRabbit wrote:
Mine also arrived today. Halfway through inspection, but the NA and Nightstalker resins arere excellent, the restics are all very good, even the skinny knife arm stalker, and the giant is absolutely mental. Mine has the same problem re: the two part lower torso only just not dry fitting, and my stone walls are also banana shaped. Only criticism so far would be the lack of a third head option for the Snow Trolls, will make KoW regiments a little bit samey.

I haven't had a chance to see anything aside from the giant.

Megan has the rest of it in her grabby little mitts. (Have I ever mentioned how much I love my wife?)

The Auld Grump

The main thing the "no models, no rules" scare did for me was make me realize that I really wish that Mantic would put out some Varangur models. Especially if they drew more from the Realms of Chaos - 5th Edition WHFB chaos warrior aesthetic than the current "homogeneous marching cloak-brutes" plastics.

 Psychopomp wrote:
The main thing the "no models, no rules" scare did for me was make me realize that I really wish that Mantic would put out some Varangur models. Especially if they drew more from the Realms of Chaos - 5th Edition WHFB chaos warrior aesthetic than the current "homogeneous marching cloak-brutes" plastics.

So much exalt. When playing with troop "bricks" the kit should be varied enough to make the first rank either as homogeneous as possible for regular "uniformed" armies or as varied as possible for a mob. It shouldn't be impossible to outdo GW in both departments.

I opened the Abyssals portion of the package.

The Lower Abyssals, Flame Bearers, and Succubi sprues are all from the existing line - not bad, but have been covered for a while.

The cavalry is restic - but the pieces fit together well, a little soap and water to remove the mold release, and a quick going over with a hobby knife to remove the mold lines.

The mold lines themselves were easy to reach, making cleanup easier than I was expecting.

But the high point is definitely the resin models - in particular the demon riding piggyback on a larger demon is a nifty little piece that will become an NPC in my Pathfinder game.

The Succubus leader and the Gargoyle are also quite nice.

The remaining large demon is... kinda dopey looking, a bit of a let down. The only one that I will likely not find a use for outside of KoW/Vanguard.

Overall, I am happy with it - though my wife and I may argue about which of us lays claim to the force. (When Bones IV is released, we are planning on His and Hers Abyssal armies, her force the hammer, mine the anvil.)

I was kind of surprised to see that the Northern Alliance is Good - not often you see trolls on the side of the white hats.

They are not the Varangar, and are among the many that the Varangar call enemies.

Model wise, they may well share with the Varangar, but that is because barbarians are barbarians, whichever side they are on.

The Auld Grump - Northern Alliance is the next box and baggie we will be opening.

Let's clear a couple of things up.

1 - "We won't make rules for models we don't make going forwards" - that's a misrepresentation of what I said (or at least has been taken the wrong way or not fully quoted). We will not ADD or make NEW rules for anything we don't have a model for or intend to make models for. Don't expect us to add a new army to a system to support someone else's model line. It doesn't mean that things like Herd or Ratkin are going to be deleted. They already have rules. If we manage to get round to doing our own Ratkin (for example) they might change their unit types or rules in line with the new ideas we would have for them). What we aren't going to do is things like put out an army list for steam-punk dwarfs in airships... because we don't make models for those.

2 - The Brotherhood are not dead either. Sure they took a battering and will come out the other side of the events from the summer campaign in a slightly battered shape, but that means they evolve and move on in their story rather than being removed.

Thanks for the clarifications Matt

If we add a new army now it will be one we make models for or are about to make models for ... we are not going to release new units or anything for stuff we don't make any more

The “or anything” seem to be the root of the confusion at least for me but I know you were answering questions on the fly and sometimes what you intended isn’t what’s picked up.

 mattjgilbert wrote:
Let's clear a couple of things up.

1 - "We won't make rules for models we don't make going forwards" - that's a misrepresentation of what I said (or at least has been taken the wrong way or not fully quoted). We will not ADD or make NEW rules for anything we don't have a model for or intend to make models for. Don't expect us to add a new army to a system to support someone else's model line. It doesn't mean that things like Herd or Ratkin are going to be deleted. They already have rules. If we manage to get round to doing our own Ratkin (for example) they might change their unit types or rules in line with the new ideas we would have for them). What we aren't going to do is things like put out an army list for steam-punk dwarfs in airships... because we don't make models for those.

2 - The Brotherhood are not dead either. Sure they took a battering and will come out the other side of the events from the summer campaign in a slightly battered shape, but that means they evolve and move on in their story rather than being removed.

Cheers for the clarification, that makes sense and soothes any worries I might have had, as long as existing lists continue to be supported I;ve no issue with you focusing on your own stuff going forward

Megan latched onto the Night Stalkers - and already has plans for them both in Vanguard/Kings of War and in Pathfinder.

We played a quick game last night - and it was quick. Less than an hour for our game, and that was with lots of pauses to look up rules.

I am stealing the Good undead from Edge of the Abyss for my Vanguard warband - and to balance things I can only take Neutral allies until the warband is well established - he won't work with Evil, and Good won't work with him.

At least until he is pretty much confirmed as one of the Good guys, at any rate.

Also, I am renaming the ghouls 'rabble' for this warband, because dead eaters are kind of hard to think of as Good.

Instead, these are the outcast, the forlorn, and those seeking redemption. (But otherwise using the rules for ghouls, because they fill a needed role in the army.)

Megan went with Night Stalkers - who were an interesting match against my undead in KoW - undead need Inspiring to work, and Night Stalkers can 'borrow' it.

In Vanguard... they don't get that advantage.

Even so, I only barely managed a win, and had to keep my Necromancer well back from the front, only using him as support.

Tomorrow the Junior League for KoW starts back up - and the first few sessions will be Vanguard, then alternating between KoW and Vanguard, with bonuses in KoW for winning the Vanguard missions.

Tomorrow will be people picking their starting forces, and then quick battles that will not count toward the League, just learning the rules.

I roped Megan into it this time.

The Auld Grump - after all, sooner or later we will be inducting our own wee player into the game...

I think that's the first sighting of painted Spectres I don't think the glowy green fits the rest of the NS theme blue might work better like original artwork

Whelp.....I see mummy conversions in my future

I pre-oreded all my stuff from Wayland Games and - surprise! - as soon as the game released they changed all their listings from “pre-order” to “restock expected.” I have spent tons of money with Wayland but I’m getting fed up with their shenanigans and gakky customer service.

It's odd hearing anything disparging about Wayland. We use them here for cheap minis since brexit made mincemeat out of the pound.

Yes, I did tons of business with Wayland in the wake of the referendum, especially for Mantic and Warlord products. I think they are still the most affordable retailer for Mantic stuff (TWD aside, perhaps). But taking pre-orders for Vanguard that they can’t actually fill upon release ... it’s just the latest in a few shady and/or backwards things they’ve done to me.

You need to treat Wayland like a Kickstarter, you pay and then don't even think about it until it turns up.

I am favorably impressed by the resin that Mantic used for this - not brittle, nice texture, no greasiness, no bubbles, and it looks like complete fills on all of the molds.

Lots of vents, some flash - but even the sheeted flash is not brittle, it needs cutting to remove, not just a brush and gone.

Not difficult to remove with a knife - no flaking or chipping.

Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.

Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...

I like a lot of their restics and board game plastics. If they are cheaper than resin, I'm happy for them to keep going with them. However, they need to make sure to use the manufacturers who get it right, like whoever made the Mars Attacks and Dreadball Extreme minis.

 Sarouan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.

Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...

While it would be nice it’s just not practical as it is they had to produce 80,000 resin minis (per update #59) just to cover the KS requirements, they can’t tool everything in HIPS it’s a cost plus expected level of sales issue and they don’t have the manpower to do everything in resin - they have 1 caster and 1 mold maker per the Vanguard Q&A and resin molds only last for so many castings so for stuff that needs to be mass produced but doesn’t justify the cost or quantity of HIPS PVC is the only real alternative they have.

Mantic wrote a blog post on this topic
https://manticblog.com/2017/02/28/mantic-games-resin-miniatures/

EDIT and as Bob said there’s final retail costs as well to consider currently it’s £25 for 3 resins and £25 for 15 PVC minis I doubt many would spend £125 on a resin Vanguard Warband.

 Sarouan wrote:

Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...

I've not received my pledge, but I'm interested to know what new models are made of the "restic crap". Personally I hated it for small multipart models like the v1 Deadzone enforcers, but it was perfect for models like the KoW ogres and werewolves.
The newer material is fine, and was pretty damn detailed for Deadzone v2, for those models not made in real Hard Plastic.

I wasn't aware the Vanguard KS was making anything in that old restic crap and I'll be annoyed, but more surprised, if it is.

Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.

The KS was clear that PVC is being used

These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.

Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...

I've not received my pledge, but I'm interested to know what new models are made of the "restic crap". Personally I hated it for small multipart models like the v1 Deadzone enforcers, but it was perfect for models like the KoW ogres and werewolves.
The newer material is fine, and was pretty damn detailed for Deadzone v2, for those models not made in real Hard Plastic.

I wasn't aware the Vanguard KS was making anything in that old restic crap and I'll be annoyed, but more surprised, if it is.

They did, in fact, make many of the minis from the restic.

But then, I am not filled with hate for the material, and am, in point of fact, quite happy with the restic models in the sets.

While not as nice as the resin, it is quite serviceable - in particular, the giant is made from the PVC material, and looks very good.

The Auld Grump

I admit I have a strong dislike of this PVC material. It's not the same feeling when you work it in comparison with what I call "true plastic" like GW kits.

Of course when you've done the work, it can be fine as a result. But I never enjoyed building PVC miniatures, while I did for other materials. It is indeed better for bigger miniatures like monsters or monstruous infantry, but to me it's a material that should NOT be used for "regular" infantry sized miniatures. The smaller they are, the more annoying it is to work when you build it. It's fine for boardgames, because these miniatures aren't really intended for modelism - you just pick them from the box and immediately play with them, you don't care much about their details or if they have annoying mold lines right in the middle of their face. It's not the same with a wargame.

The argument of having to use PVC to keep it "cheap" for the customers, I'm not sure it's the true reason here. I believe it's cheap for Mantic Games to produce those, yes...but you still notice the prices are deliberately higher than with KoW, mainly because Vanguard is a skirmish game and need less miniatures - you can't explain it otherwise, really. It's the same logic with Walking Dead.

I believe they could have made it full resin, because it's a skirmish game. It would have justified the higher price better, to me. When you look at the sculpts of even the grunts, they barely have variations in poses - it's just a switch of head or weapon at best, so diversity of build can't be used as well as excuse for not using resin.

You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks. Those games need too many miniatures for resin, and higher prices will keep the fresh blood away. If Mantic were to invest hard plastic money into ever range, they'd never be able to justify making some of their wackier or more interesting minis, like the Teratons, Sorak, robots, cyphers, and so on.

If you only want to use HIpS plastics, you can covert a lot of units from them. However, you might try out the new stuff before you condemn it. Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.

 DaveC wrote:
Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.

The KS was clear that PVC is being used

These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.

Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.

On a final note for me on this... I only use the word 'restic' to describe the material that was used in Deadzone v1. That stuff is very different to the PVC used in Walking Dead or DZ2. The PVC material is pretty good. I worried when the word restic was thrown about for Vanguard that Mantic were going back to the old dz1 stuff. I like the new pvc models, I don't mind metal, and Mantic's resin has always been good. I'm really looking forward to the new Vanguard models. C'mon shipping notice. :-)

The thing that needs to be remembered when working with PVC - be it 'restic', 'Bonesium', or whatever, is that you need to slice the mold lines and flash away - scraping or filing does not work that well on the softer but more elastic material.

A very, very fine sandpaper can also be used, but I generally just use a fresh blade for my X-Acto.

But I was modeling with vinyls back in the seventies, so I already knew that material a bit. (And, good lords and ladies, the adhesive I used for the models stunk to the high heavens!)

*EDIT* My wife made serious inroads on the Night Stalkers while I was at work, yesterday - and will be finishing the Mind Screech today - she is using it for a monster in her Pathfinder game that almost caused a TPK last time... so I am a bit worried.

The Auld Grump


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 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.

The KS was clear that PVC is being used

These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.

Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.

On a final note for me on this... I only use the word 'restic' to describe the material that was used in Deadzone v1. That stuff is very different to the PVC used in Walking Dead or DZ2. The PVC material is pretty good. I worried when the word restic was thrown about for Vanguard that Mantic were going back to the old dz1 stuff. I like the new pvc models, I don't mind metal, and Mantic's resin has always been good. I'm really looking forward to the new Vanguard models. C'mon shipping notice. :-)

I am pretty sure that the models in Vanguard do use the same restic - but that Mantic now knows a good deal more about the material, its strengths and weaknesses.

Venting is better, and parts, in general, are larger.

Megan managed to clean several of the man sized models last night, and has them primed and ready for paint, I will be tackling the Abyssals over the weekend. (The only models from the KS that I have worked on so far are the giant and the resin piggy back demon - I am using it in Pathfinder as an Efreet eunuch and its master.)

The Auld Grump

And a special shout out to the new bard mini included with the scenery. From what I can tell, they started with the model of Ronnie prancing about as a bard, and strapped a brass band onto him. I don't think they ever showed this one as a preview - very funny model!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks.

Thing is, I'm talking about Vanguard here. The boosters they made show they could use resin for everything if they wanted, it's not a matter of the material "working or not" in the end. It's a design choice. They went with PVC for the starters because that's what they wanted - certainly to cut costs for themselves rather than offering quality material for their customers. Mantic was always about being "cheap", in all senses of the word.

Of course, the miniatures in themselves aren't especially cheap in comparison to the rest on their online shop.

Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.

And it's always annoying to build them. I know, I have them at home. Some are still in the boxes because I was fed up with the first I built. I don't even bother to make conversions or take time with painting - the material in itself isn't worth it.

That's the real truth, here. Now you can indeed getting used to the material and adapt yourself...but you will never remove the true disadvantages of this material in comparison to others that are available on the market, and that you know Mantic can perfectly use if they choose to do so.

 Sarouan wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks.

Thing is, I'm talking about Vanguard here. The boosters they made show they could use resin for everything if they wanted, it's not a matter of the material "working or not" in the end. It's a design choice. They went with PVC for the starters because that's what they wanted - certainly to cut costs for themselves rather than offering quality material for their customers. Mantic was always about being "cheap", in all senses of the word.

Of course, the miniatures in themselves aren't especially cheap in comparison to the rest on their online shop.

Vanguard is supposed to operate along the same lines as the games I mentioned, though. The sheer numbers of sets Mantic is planning to sell require a medium that is less costly and time consuming. The boosters you cite as evidence are for extremely rare units, like HQ choices. It's ridiculous to plan on selling the grunts in the same numbers and prices as the one-per-army elites. You seem to want Mantic to be a boutique miniatures retailer rather than a games manufacturer. The bulk of Mantic's customers feel differently, as evidenced by the continued success of Mantic's Kickstarters.

Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.

And it's always annoying to build them. I know, I have them at home. Some are still in the boxes because I was fed up with the first I built. I don't even bother to make conversions or take time with painting - the material in itself isn't worth it.

That's the real truth, here. Now you can indeed getting used to the material and adapt yourself...but you will never remove the true disadvantages of this material in comparison to others that are available on the market, and that you know Mantic can perfectly use if they choose to do so.

You and I have had some very different experiences. The PVC used in the last few campaigns has been much clear in cast and easier to work with in my experience. As someone who prefers HIPS, I find the PVC barely more difficult to work with than good quality resin, and better than some other companies' resin. I feel like you are overblowing the disadvantages of restic to fantastic degree, either based on negative early experiences or partisanship on the behalf of other plastic fantasy miniature companies. If PVC/restic were such a huge albatross, we wouldn't be seeing the golden age of big box boardgames on Kickstarter.

I mean, shoot, this stuff blows the pants off of Bones for 28mm humans, and Bones is raking in money blurry hand over blobby fist.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Vanguard is supposed to operate along the same lines as the games I mentioned, though. The sheer numbers of sets Mantic is planning to sell require a medium that is less costly and time consuming. The boosters you cite as evidence are for extremely rare units, like HQ choices. It's ridiculous to plan on selling the grunts in the same numbers and prices as the one-per-army elites.

You're aware that the dwarf warband is entirely in resin, right ?



This alone invalidates all of your arguments on that matter.

You seem to want Mantic to be a boutique miniatures retailer rather than a games manufacturer.

Non sense. You can do both if the will is there. And let's be clear : Mantic games is first a miniature seller. Games are just a tool to sell miniatures. They don't sell games that don't use them, after all - if they were solely a games manufacturer, that's what they would do, but that's not the case.

The bulk of Mantic's customers feel differently, as evidenced by the continued success of Mantic's Kickstarters.

The Vanguard Kickstarter didn't really go up before Ronnie came up with his "cheap sales" trick, once again. And ask the backers if they would rather like resin instead of PVC if that was given as a choice - I'm pretty sure the number of guys who would take PVC as their pick wouldn't be that high as you seem to believe.

You and I have had some very different experiences. The PVC used in the last few campaigns has been much clear in cast and easier to work with in my experience. As someone who prefers HIPS, I find the PVC barely more difficult to work with than good quality resin, and better than some other companies' resin. I feel like you are overblowing the disadvantages of restic to fantastic degree, either based on negative early experiences or partisanship on the behalf of other plastic fantasy miniature companies. If PVC/restic were such a huge albatross, we wouldn't be seeing the golden age of big box boardgames on Kickstarter.

I mean, shoot, this stuff blows the pants off of Bones for 28mm humans, and Bones is raking in money blurry hand over blobby fist.

Like I said, you can get used to PVC and work it to have a good result in the end. I'm just saying it's not an ideal and high quality material to work with, because that's not its main use. I'm not overblowing the disadvantages - I'm just stating it as it truly is - a cheap material used to cut costs and clearly not taken for the good of customers.

And I will repeat it again ; it's fine for boardgames, but seeing it used for wargames - which Vanguard is, it's not a boardgame in design - is clearly not meant for the players who are used to build miniatures, convert them and paint them with love and care. That a lot of Mantic players resign themselves to this material so that they can still have "low" prices is one thing, but I believe the "low prices" aren't exactly met with Vanguard nonetheless...so I believe the argument of "keeping it cheap" is kinda lost here, and Mantic is trying to sell its PVC as something with enough value in itself. I'm saying the material in itself isn't good enough for this perceived value.