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dyndraig wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Loving those hero models, but loath the Siege-Breakers which mark the return of skipped-leg-day-Ogres. I though those days were behind us... :-(

My guess is that the siegebreakers are not entirely new models, but rather an upgrade kit like the Ogre command kit.

I agree... but that kit is dire, and urgently needs replacing, not expansions. :-p Mantic's modeling is growing by leaps, but the base kit of the Ogres is just awful. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

dyndraig wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Loving those hero models, but loath the Siege-Breakers which mark the return of skipped-leg-day-Ogres. I though those days were behind us... :-(

My guess is that the siegebreakers are not entirely new models, but rather an upgrade kit like the Ogre command kit.

I agree... but that kit is dire, and urgently needs replacing, not expansions. :-p Mantic's modeling is growing by leaps, but the base kit of the Ogres is just awful. :-p

Yea, I was gonna say, the tiny legged Ogres never left man

And +1 to the same face comment, I noticed that too and then couldn't unsee it

That's a bit of a bummer coming off the really nice Abyssal and Northern Alliance releases.

Plus the new goblins and rats look great. Why are we going back to the old kits? Upgrade parts are a lame stop gap.

Why not just fund a new 3 man ogre sprue that includes two handed weapons and shield breaker bits? Start it as a vanguard unit and scale up to bigger armies accordingly.

They really got it right with the Abyssal Dwarfs.

I'm really torn about which upcoming plastic Gobbos I like, the Mantic Goblins, or the Shieldwolf Forest Goblins. It could go either way. Originally I wanted to do a Savage Orcs and Goblins army of GW Savage Orcs and SW Forest Goblins, but the improvements Mantic is making in their Goblins are really starting to look good.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
That's a bit of a bummer coming off the really nice Abyssal and Northern Alliance releases.

Plus the new goblins and rats look great. Why are we going back to the old kits? Upgrade parts are a lame stop gap.

Why not just fund a new 3 man ogre sprue that includes two handed weapons and shield breaker bits? Start it as a vanguard unit and scale up to bigger armies accordingly.

They really got it right with the Abyssal Dwarfs.

Because there's a massive difference between the cost of those two options. Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

 kodos wrote:
They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I'm really torn about which upcoming plastic Gobbos I like, the Mantic Goblins, or the Shieldwolf Forest Goblins. It could go either way. Originally I wanted to do a Savage Orcs and Goblins army of GW Savage Orcs and SW Forest Goblins, but the improvements Mantic is making in their Goblins are really starting to look good.

I really like SW Savage Orcs, and got to play a dude last year with an entire SW (+ Mierce) army. Probably my favorite greenskin army I've seen (game shots in this folder). Some weird toothy faces in there but I think the raw ferocious overall tone really works for massed infantry.

That said, I also dig Mantic's Orc line, think it's one of my favorites of theirs.

EDIT: Speaking of Orcs, y'all see the list that won the US Masters in February? Erich Trowbridge ran this pure machine of an army:

Army: Orcs
Points: 2300
Unit Count: 19
Unit Strength: 28

275, Greatax Horde
-- Maccwar's Potion of the Caterpillar
-- Orcish Skullpole
255, Greatax Horde
-- Orcish Skullpole
255, Greatax Horde
-- Orcish Skullpole
180, Morax Regiment
-- Orcish Skullpole
180, Morax Regiment
-- Orcish Skullpole
180, Morax Regiment
-- Orcish Skullpole
60, Orcling Regiment
60, Orcling Regiment
60, Orcling Regiment
60, Orcling Regiment
60, Orcling Regiment
60, Orcling Regiment
80, War Drum
110, Krudger
-- Gakamak's Bloody Banner
-- Orcish Skullpole
95, Krudger
95, Krudger
80, Krusher
-- Mace of Crushing
-- Gore
80, Krusher
-- Blade of Slashing
-- Gore
75, Krusher
-- Gore

I watched it absolutely dismantle a quad-dragon zombie-spam Undead list, there was next to nothing the Undead player could do and he knew it. Unreal. (And gratifying, Trowbridge was my dark horse pick for Master )

have seen this list before and I really like it
such much brutal force directly into the face

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

for sure HIPS is out of Mantics price point and Resin will be to expensive for the costumers, so PVC is fine
and the questions is also if the investment is worth it, how many people are not buying them now because of the outdated core and how much more are going to buy it after an update

We don't know how many they've got in the warehouse,

it could be there are enough that making a quick upgrade kit will let them sell a lot of almost dead stock

 sukura636 wrote:

Because there's a massive difference between the cost of those two options. Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

Which makes me wonder, once again after all these years, why they decided to throw all that money at such a joke of a design in the first place. There's such a thing as 'learning the hard way', but sheesh.

They were at a nexus, a crossroads of history. In one branch of time, Games Workshop rose again: in the other Warmahordes bestrode the dead colossus. The scryers of Mantic could not flern the true future, and tried to pave a golden path between the lashing tongues of destiny. This, the ogre, a proxy for a Games Workshop faction with the physical sensibility of a Warmachine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flern? I wrote “glean”

A fair interpretation.

Me, I still think someone was watching too many Sylvester and Tweety cartoons at the time.

For however expensive plastic tooling can be, I'd like to "flern" how they managed to put out some really solid options for core infantry choices for a few armies since 3E started.

Basileans, Nightstalkers, Northmen, Abyssal Dwarfs, and Goblins soon to follow. Most allowing for more than one troop type as well.

I agree the shield breakers could just be a stop gap, and it would make sense to use up whatever remaining stock they have.

TBH I think the Siege Breaker kit is a bit (ok, a lot) of a let down compared to the unit background.

I was hoping for bigger hammers, and shields more akin to mantlets, more in keeping with the design of the Dwarf sharpshooter or bulwarker shields. If I can find a fairly straight forward way to make hammers I'll give it a miss and make my own.

(Also looks like someone just slapped some rejected Chaos Warrior shields on the normal Mantic ogres).

 kodos wrote:
have seen this list before and I really like it
such much brutal force directly into the face

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

for sure HIPS is out of Mantics price point and Resin will be to expensive for the costumers, so PVC is fine
and the questions is also if the investment is worth it, how many people are not buying them now because of the outdated core and how much more are going to buy it after an update

You seem to be equating the cost of resin tooling with the cost of plastic tooling.

Once again, plastic (of any kind) is much more expensive to get tooled.

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
have seen this list before and I really like it
such much brutal force directly into the face

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

for sure HIPS is out of Mantics price point and Resin will be to expensive for the costumers, so PVC is fine
and the questions is also if the investment is worth it, how many people are not buying them now because of the outdated core and how much more are going to buy it after an update

You seem to be equating the cost of resin tooling with the cost of plastic tooling.

Once again, plastic (of any kind) is much more expensive to get tooled.

but cheaper in the long term

different materials offer different possibilities, PVC is not as expensive as HIPS in tooling and allows for different models (that are more similar to Resin or Metal) while Resin is the cheapest in tooling if you have a low amount of models.
the more you produce the more expensive it will get, same with Metal

PVC is kind of in the middle, the tooling costs more than for Resin or Metal, but the forms last longer and the material is cheaper, while it is not as expensive as HIPS.

so of course doing the Ogres again will be expensive and without knowing how much of the old stuff is still on stock and how much they expect to sell in future we cannot know if it is worth it or not.
but I guess it will be never worth to use HIPS

 kodos wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
have seen this list before and I really like it
such much brutal force directly into the face

 sukura636 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They could still use PVC for the larger models (the one they use on the latest stuff is fine) but just update those sculpts as we have seen with several models that they can make better Ogres

Plastic remains incredibly expensive to start to produce.

for sure HIPS is out of Mantics price point and Resin will be to expensive for the costumers, so PVC is fine
and the questions is also if the investment is worth it, how many people are not buying them now because of the outdated core and how much more are going to buy it after an update

You seem to be equating the cost of resin tooling with the cost of plastic tooling.

Once again, plastic (of any kind) is much more expensive to get tooled.

but cheaper in the long term

different materials offer different possibilities, PVC is not as expensive as HIPS in tooling and allows for different models (that are more similar to Resin or Metal) while Resin is the cheapest in tooling if you have a low amount of models.
the more you produce the more expensive it will get, same with Metal

PVC is kind of in the middle, the tooling costs more than for Resin or Metal, but the forms last longer and the material is cheaper, while it is not as expensive as HIPS.

so of course doing the Ogres again will be expensive and without knowing how much of the old stuff is still on stock and how much they expect to sell in future we cannot know if it is worth it or not.
but I guess it will be never worth to use HIPS

But with that, you can't just go "Well if they can do resin, just do PVC instead?". You can't simply assume that a budget that covers one will cover the other.

 sukura636 wrote:

But with that, you can't just go "Well if they can do resin, just do PVC instead?". You can't simply assume that a budget that covers one will cover the other.

if there is a budget and a demand to get Resin or Metal single Models/Heroes for Vanguard/KoW there should be a budget to do a basic Core unit set, from whom you need much more models so Resin/Metal is out anyway, from PVC.
if they can do Resin but not PVC would also mean that they don't expect to sell a lot of those models, which is reasonable for Heroes but not for Troops.

this of course also depends on the molds Mantic have, as if there dedicated ones for the body and weapon makes a huge difference as if they have done one mold per unit type.

but we have seen similar stuff with the other factions as well, a Vanguard Box with new Heroes and old Troops, upgrades for existing Troops and after a while new Troop models to be more in line with the new style/possibilities

So new Ogres would be ~6 months after release of the new heroes, but I still say that adding new Troops sooner than later would be the better option

Rule of thumb:

If you expect to sell tens of a mini, make it in resin. Low mould cost, high production cost in materials and labour, Resin can be made inhouse or to order with relatively quick turnaround. Needs frequent new moulds as every few dozen casts often wears out a mould.

If you expect to sell hundreds of a mini, make it in PVC or metal. middling mould cost, middling production cost. PVC is cheaper but takes more time, as it usually is made in China, Metal can be made in house or to order with relatively quick turnaround, lower mould cost than pvc but the metal material is quite expensive.

If you expect to sell thousands of a mini, make it in polystyrene HIPS Very High mould cost, very low production cost. Takes time, usually made in China or a long wait list with domestic manufacturing.


...Obviously, Mantic does not really expect to sell thousands of these models in a short enough time to cover the upfront HIPS moulding costs.

 Maledrakh wrote:
Rule of thumb:

If you expect to sell tens of a mini, make it in resin. Low mould cost, high production cost in materials and labour, Resin can be made inhouse or to order with relatively quick turnaround. Needs frequent new moulds as every few dozen casts often wears out a mould.

If you expect to sell hundreds of a mini, make it in PVC or metal. middling mould cost, middling production cost. PVC is cheaper but takes more time, as it usually is made in China, Metal can be made in house or to order with relatively quick turnaround, lower mould cost than pvc but the metal material is quite expensive.

If you expect to sell thousands of a mini, make it in polystyrene HIPS Very High mould cost, very low production cost. Takes time, usually made in China or a long wait list with domestic manufacturing.


...Obviously, Mantic does not really expect to sell thousands of these models in a short enough time to cover the upfront HIPS moulding costs.

Almost accurate. You need to bump PVC up to HIPS in terms of numbers...sort of. Resin, Metal, PVC, the HIPS, in that order, not overlapping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

But with that, you can't just go "Well if they can do resin, just do PVC instead?". You can't simply assume that a budget that covers one will cover the other.

if there is a budget and a demand to get Resin or Metal single Models/Heroes for Vanguard/KoW there should be a budget to do a basic Core unit set, from whom you need much more models so Resin/Metal is out anyway, from PVC.

And again, you're making the same assumption. If you can do resin, then you must also be able to do PVC. It's simply not true.

Hey - quick question. Are the new plastic Abyssal Dwarves from a KS, or did they go straight to retail? I'm trying to work out if I should have a few sprues of them somewhere...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.
What's a {resin) Mobile Katsuchan? I can't find a pic of it anywhere, including on Mantic's own site...

 Azazelx wrote:
Hey - quick question. Are the new plastic Abyssal Dwarves from a KS, or did they go straight to retail? I'm trying to work out if I should have a few sprues of them somewhere...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.
What's a {resin) Mobile Katsuchan? I can't find a pic of it anywhere, including on Mantic's own site...

HIPS Abyssal Dwarfs are straight to retail not a KS product

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/photos/mobile-katsuchan/10157691205777319/
https://www.manticgames.com/games/new/abyssal-dwarf-warband-set/

 Azazelx wrote:
What's a {resin) Mobile Katsuchan? I can't find a pic of it anywhere, including on Mantic's own site...

It's this mini:Which in KOW is an upgrade for Decimators (one-shot rocket). In Vanguard I have to assume it's its own thing.

Isn't the Katuchan artillery?

https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/abyssal-dwarf/abyssal-dwarf-katsuchan-rocket-launcher/

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Isn't the Katuchan artillery?

Yep, that's still a thing (but spoiler, the mortars are better). Here's the dwarf-portable version:

Thanks guys - much appreciated!

Third Edition Core Rules are now free

https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-third-edition-free-rules/

Open Day videos and some screencaps. Ronnie very briefly showed a prototype plastic Ratkin. They strongly hinted at a 2 player starter featuring Goblins versus Ratkin. From the artwork it looks like the Veer Myn Nightmares and Night Terror will be available to the Ratkin

 DaveC wrote:
Open Day videos and some screencaps. Ronnie very briefly showed a prototype plastic Ratkin. They strongly hinted at a 2 player starter featuring Goblins versus Ratkin. From the artwork it looks like the Veer Myn Nightmares and Night Terror will be available to the Ratkin

Considering Nightmares and the Night Terror are in the current Ratkin list in Uncharted Empires, I’d say there’s a pretty good chance they’ll be available...

And I LOVE those Soulflayers! Looks like somebody was inspired by the art-of-the-possible that GW has demonstrated with “spectral” models...

Valete,

JohnS.