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I very much doubt that's going to happen unfortunately. I've gone with what I think is my best possible options, and I have to leave it at that. It gets me a really big Ogre army, and the possibility of trading out stuff I don't want for things I do with other kickstarter pledgers, but yeah I don't think Mantic is going to run out and resculpt some of their lesser good looking miniatures anytime soon.

I am hoping this is a good lesson for them. Better sculpted miniatures last the distance longer because they sell well to make back the money invested in their construction. You put out stuff fast and while it gives you a lot to sell, it's not always going to be a long lasting or best seller.

Oh, there's clearly no chance of that happening. I did a ton of juggling and dropping BOGOF choices so that my pledge has all of the remaining models that my wife and I liked enough to pay BOGOF prices for, and hers has the Official Ogre army, along with books and such, for a final end-feeling of "It's alright, I guess." I'll revisit my feelings when they turn up in the post and I have them in hand, but I've done all I can for now.

On the topic of quality>more product, I wonder how well their skeletons/ghouls/.etc are selling these days?

I can see issues with supplying so many ogres, because the amount of times I've seen someone say "I'm changing over to Ogres" would make me really nervous if I was mantic. Likelyhood of the market being flooded with Ogres as well as dirt cheap Basileans and so on is very high, and I do wonder what is the maximum threshold for people to continue to buy that kind of stuff.

I have no idea, but I can imagine the resale on a lot of the kickstarter items are going to drop really quickly. Some of them will do well (Lion Hero, Mincer, Ogres), but others are going to do poorly.

I have delayed receiving mine till August, even though I have dropped my Basileans, just because it cuts down the cost of postage for Mantic, and I have enough miniatures on my hands as it is.

If anyone else is interested in trading in Australia, we should set up a thread about it. But that's for another thread.

On another note - Hooray for cheap toys that can be used as stand-in's for GW miniatures. Going to buy some McFarlane Toys Tuskedon's to use as Thundertusks, and will likely grab some Scibor Ogre Rhino's for Stonehorns. Anything to get away from buying from GW, even if the Scibor ones aren't so cheap. Both should work out to the cost of one box set of the Stonehorn/Thundertusk, so it's all good. Mantic Ogres look like they'll be able to be interchanged easily enough. I think I will consider it a challenge to make them look different from each other, considering there is only 3 body types and 4 different sets of arms (not counting Command or Hero).

Well, there are only(!) 1600 backers for KoW - which is a lot, but not a huge drop in the WHFB bucket. Of the ogres that get sent out to backers, I'd say a lot will be actually used for WHFB/KoW i.e: the "I guess I have an Ogre army, now." effect - and a substantial portion will end up where most miniatures do - unpainted and thrown in people's drawers and in boxes hidden in closets, sheds, garages and so forth.

And yes - I kept some Basiliean Paladins mounted and on foot and the angels as BOGOFs while ditching the men-at-arms, cathorses and sisters. Surprising, eh?

But hey, it's a problem not only of Mantic's own making, but made as a result of deliberate choices. If the sisters and cathorses sell like the Elves and dragon riders, then they might re-examine their quality control a bit harder for the next KS.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, I dropped mine to August for the same reason. I figured that my 3 current projects are unlikely to be finished before then anyway. And I'm trying to go through and finish off some of the endless random figures that were started years ago and then put aside as "interesting" things between the 3 larger-scale projects.

Of course, August is when I expect Bones to arrive as well. It's going to be a big month for toy soldiers.

I am likely to see what it's going to take to salvage some of the models. Like the trolls, I don't mind the upper body. I am going to see if it's easy enough to make some lower body legs and different heads and try to work them in with the Rackham ones I have. It's a bit drastic, and as you said, yeah there's a large chance I just stuff them in a drawer and forget about them, as sad as it seems.

I should have pledged for Reaper bones. Didn't keep enough of an eye on it. The dragons they have in there are awesome, and so many of them so useful for so many armies.

Sometimes I feel like that about all the Mantic KS and the Bones one, but I have enough to be getting on with and have sort of put my money into true 28mm enough these days to consider changing to that entirely.

It's a bit of a pisser to have to resculpt the legs though. I really think they need a critical voice in Mantic telling sculptors or designers when they need to start again.

^ They don't really have a core of artists within the company though, Ronnie is an expert businessman, not a creative, and probably thought the trolls/ sisters etc. looked pretty good.

They have an efficient team of full-timers managing the warehouse, supply chain and marketing, but mostly scattered temp. freelancers doing all the creative work, sculpting, illustration, writing background. This actually works pretty well for rules since either Alessio or Jake is tasked with a particular system and everything to do with that system, which keeps things nice and coherent.

As a result, they don't really have a house style, sculptors and artists largely bring their own style to the table and take it from there. They'll get one eventually, in time... just not yet.

Even Remy isn't immune, the ogres are knock-kneed because it's traditional in french comic books to have large monsters in that pose...so french sculptors emulate it a lot (see Rackham etc.).

The best thing they can do is post more WIP work and not be afraid to change it based on feedback.

They simply need to hire a strong Art Director with the power to refuse payment to freelancers for sub-par product. Even as a part-timer to begin with. It'll save/make them more money in the long run than the uneven product they have been putting out. They don't even need a house style at this stage, just someone with some knowledge and a critical eye.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And some idea of anatomy and proportion

Mike McVey was Art Director for Mantic Games, up until October 2012.

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/mike-mcvey/5/156/54

Also, freelance contracts are a minefield. I do commissions (mobile gaming stuff), and take cash in advance. If something needs changing, that's an extra charge, client can't come back and say "do it again" without breaking the contract. Any successful freelancer very quickly learns to have some teeth, right after the first time a client screws them over.

I'd imagine sculptors work under the same terms. The nice thing about having full-time staff is that you can just say "do it again", without any messing around.

In fact, they recently hired a new full-time sculptor and his first job was to fix the deadzone marauders... he did a pretty good job of turd-polishing, to be fair, but there's only so much he could do with such a flawed set of initial sculpts.

This is the kind of thing that 'holds them back', more or less.

It HAS to be obvious to Mantic.

They've got a real opportunity to make some serious inroads into the whole SF gaming world with Deadzone and Warpath.

They HAVE to these two 'right' though...

Well, that's a truly interesting find. I guess we can blame Mike for either being asleep at the wheel or not having the authority to say "No! Do it again!" Given that timeframe, I'd guess he was in the role as either a part-timer or consultant. Not that this forgives the poor stuff that came out (or was designed for KoW) on his watch.

Perhaps he was having regular flashbacks to his original sculpt of Lemartes which was also considered "good enough" to release by GW...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

Also, freelance contracts are a minefield. I do commissions (mobile gaming stuff), and take cash in advance. If something needs changing, that's an extra charge, client can't come back and say "do it again" without breaking the contract. Any successful freelancer very quickly learns to have some teeth, right after the first time a client screws them over.

I'd imagine sculptors work under the same terms.

It really depends on what quality control is made clear and expected upfront. I used to paint miniatures for commission, and if I suddenly decided to half-arse it and feth it up, the onus would be on me to provide "fixes". It would of course be a different story if the client changed their mind and wanted the Blood Angels symbols changed to Flesh Tearers. For the sake of this discussion, I'll skip the trolls, since we don't know what the final concept art looked like, but things like the elongated arms and shovel-hands on the nuns are simply unacceptable as work-for-hire.

It also reveals the worst part about their accelerated-by-kickstarter release schedule that they seemingly have no plans to back off on. gak that shouldn't be keeps getting released. If the internets didn't kick up a huge stink about those DZ Orx, we all know they would not have been changed. At all.

Yeah, I think it's a two way street when it comes to sculpts. You can't just drop a bad sculpt on someone and keep expecting payments to fix the problems of your design in the first place. Otherwise freelancers could stretch it out for ages, and the manufacturer has to keep throwing good money after bad to get it sorted.

Fully agreed on the Art Director though. They definitely need to have someone with an aesthetic eye for detail and an idea of how a unified force will look, and then get in the sculptors to do that. Even if it costs a bit to get the really good ones, do it. That makes the miniatures even better to have on hand, because once you've made the mould to begin producing, that's it, you're committed.

Seeing them go towards 3d design is both good and bad. It's fine for cylindrical and flat shapes, but it is really bad for organic looking miniatures. The Enforcer series will look good, but more organic or human looking ones often suffer.

I guess it's a matter of decisions. I am thinking they are more set on having a lot of stuff out there to sell so they can have a bigger line to fall back on, rather than having fewer but of better quality and more options. It might be good in the short term, but kind of burns you on the long term.

An example is the Mantic Skeletons sprue (and Revenant sprue). Ton's of options, really fantastic sculpts, and a host of weapon choices and poseability options. The restic ones just can't compare, and it looks like the new Men at Arms one won't either from their showing of what's on the sprue.

Rapid expansion isn't always great, as it can leave you a mile wide and an inch deep when it comes to your primary objective - Selling good looking miniatures at a good price. You could make a lot of the latest KoW sculpts dirt cheap and I still wouldn't buy them.

In any case, they're learning. The Deadzone Orx is an example of that, though if I was going to keep my pledge, I would have wanted a complete resculpt. Hopefully they stay on the right track of things when it comes to the Warpath one.

Edit: Oh Lemartes... Always assaulting wind tunnels with a banner pole

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a two way street when it comes to sculpts. You can't just drop a bad sculpt on someone and keep expecting payments to fix the problems of your design in the first place. Otherwise freelancers could stretch it out for ages, and the manufacturer has to keep throwing good money after bad to get it sorted.

Agreed. Especially if what you deliver only resembles the concepts you were given in the broadest sense.

 Fenriswulf wrote:

Fully agreed on the Art Director though. They definitely need to have someone with an aesthetic eye for detail and an idea of how a unified force will look, and then get in the sculptors to do that. Even if it costs a bit to get the really good ones, do it. That makes the miniatures even better to have on hand, because once you've made the mould to begin producing, that's it, you're committed.

This is so true. Lots of us have been asking where the art direction is for awhile now. Even in the Deadzone KS there is mis-match within the shown sculpts. I like the Plague well enough, but the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Gens all look like they came from different lines. And I doubt I need say anything about the Marauders.

 Fenriswulf wrote:

Seeing them go towards 3d design is both good and bad. It's fine for cylindrical and flat shapes, but it is really bad for organic looking miniatures. The Enforcer series will look good, but more organic or human looking ones often suffer.

3D design is fine for organics if you have someone with the knowledge and experience to do them right. Troublemaker Games (whom I believe are currently doing all of the Mantic digital work) are still relatively new though, and still figuring organics out.

I really like Mantic as a company, and the individuals that I have corresponded with from there. I really, really want them to do well, but they need to clamp down on these issues sooner rather than later or they are going to have a very hard time of it.

~Eric

I think there has been a definite improvement from Mantic, if you look at their earlier offerings compared to those now. Agree they still have some way to go (in some cases) when compared to GW, aside from all comments about such things being subjective (I love that older Lemartes sculpt for instance! )

And, if one acknowledges that GW isn't the top of the pile, some way to go still further until they can reach the likes of what CB and McVey are producing (although arguably those are for a different market).

I still don't see what the problem was with the DZ Orx (assuming we're referring to the greens shown at the Open Day).

 Dysartes wrote:
I still don't see what the problem was with the DZ Orx (assuming we're referring to the greens shown at the Open Day).

We must be in the minority-I like them too. Then again, I'm not sure if I've seen the Open Day shots...I saw the minis on the kickstarter and really liked them. I'll take everybody's ripper suits, please. Then again, I also like the KoW trolls. So, I'm probably further into the minority.

I'm relatively happy with what I'm receiving from my pledge. I opted for a large a undead army consisting of existing models (which are still Mantic's best IMO), and I'm now getting a large Ogre army which were the best models to come out of this KS, and a small Balisean Paladin force. I had originally gone for all Basilean's, but have dropped almost all of them as it seems many others have done.

I'm also a fan of the Trolls, but I'll just stick to the 3 free ones I'm getting. The rest of the free models will be chucked in a box somewhere waiting to be sold.

Mantic's sculpting looks to have improved significantly in the last year, but they still suffer from a lack of art direction and inconsistent quality. If they aspire to be something more than just a cheap GW proxy (which I'm pretty sure they do), they need to fix this ASAP.

Mantic has had a fair degree of criticism over it's official painting, so do you think you can do better ?

if so they are recruiting (from facebook)

Mantic is recruiting again! We're looking for a studio painter and hobby specialist - the kind of person who can paint an army for display in a short space of time, but who can also turn out some beautiful pieces for close-up photography. If you think you've got what it takes, check out the Careers section of the Mantic website and get in touch!

http://www.manticgames.com/Careers/Studio-Painter-Hobby-Specialist.html

Following the posts about Remy in the Sci-Fi thread, I checked out his blog and found a series of wonderful piuctures of the KoW KS Paladins. Just the sort of stuff we were clamouring to see for the longest time from Mantic - and much clearer shots than the KS provided.

If anyone wants to see them, here's the direct link to the post.
http://remytremblay.sculpture.over-blog.com/article-paladins-kow-mantic-117759372.html

 judgedoug wrote:

The Orc Chariot is a multipurpose kit that can be assembled as a Chariot or a Fight Wagon.

Since all you need to do is reverse the facing of the crew/animals, all Chariot kits are now multipurpose !!

 Azazelx wrote:
Following the posts about Remy in the Sci-Fi thread, I checked out his blog and found a series of wonderful piuctures of the KoW KS Paladins. Just the sort of stuff we were clamouring to see for the longest time from Mantic - and much clearer shots than the KS provided.

If anyone wants to see them, here's the direct link to the post.
http://remytremblay.sculpture.over-blog.com/article-paladins-kow-mantic-117759372.html

Those were posted ages ago in this thread, people had concerns about scale creep for a page or so until I explained that they're deliberately sculpted too large because restic shrinks.

I forgog you'd posted thyt, that is good news.

 Polonius wrote:
As for quality, I think we're all a little disappointed. Not much we can say about that, but about half of these kits are deeply flawed. But then again, nobody is disagreeing with that.

As long is this is clear, I'm not worried.

When I'm looking for alternate models to GW, I'm looking for good ones. Red Box Games. Dreamforge. Imbrian Arts. I'm open to almost anything.

But I agree with Polonius' above statement. The only thing that I may actually pick up is some golems, possibly to convert for use with my FW chaos dwarfs (as I am planning a lava-rock theme for my k'daii). Other than that... I fully agree that "about half of these kits are deeply flawed" and that "nobody" is (or should be) disagreeing with that... this was not a well done project by Mantic, there's not much more to be said about it beyond that, imo.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Following the posts about Remy in the Sci-Fi thread, I checked out his blog and found a series of wonderful piuctures of the KoW KS Paladins. Just the sort of stuff we were clamouring to see for the longest time from Mantic - and much clearer shots than the KS provided.

If anyone wants to see them, here's the direct link to the post.
http://remytremblay.sculpture.over-blog.com/article-paladins-kow-mantic-117759372.html

Those were posted ages ago in this thread, people had concerns about scale creep for a page or so until I explained that they're deliberately sculpted too large because restic shrinks.

I didn't remember them when it was Pledge Manager time, and the shots shown on the various "compilation" websites and blogs didn't have any of those shots, so we were guessing how they looked as individual models from the unit shots where the blue knights all sort of ran together visually.

That's also a fair bit of shrinkage needed to get them to the same scale as the Undead...

Quick bit of news:

- The Kings of War Starter Box is being reduced in price by 20% for the next 3 months only, £40 instead of £50 .

£40 for 95 miniatures, rules, dice and mantic points (You get 8 in the box, if I remember correctly).

20 Plastic Skeletons
10 Plastic Ghouls
20 Plastic Zombies
5 Plastic Resin Wraiths
20 Plastic Goblin Spitters
15 Plastic Orc Ax
5 Plastic Resin Gore Riders
Orclings
Mantic Points



Definitely a good time to pick it up if you have any interest in the game. The two armies are equal points out of the box.

Does anyone know when the new range of KoW stuff will hit stores, as opposed to the Kickstarter? Got me eyes on some o them trolls..

 Pacific wrote:
Does anyone know when the new range of KoW stuff will hit stores, as opposed to the Kickstarter? Got me eyes on some o them trolls..

28th June.

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Advance-Orders/Advance-Orders-Kings-of-War/Product/Trolls-3-Figures.html

Hopefully we'll be seeing some of those models trickling into the states sometime in July then.

I wouldn't be adverse to picking up a few of the new figures.

I'm curious when we'll start hearing about the return of Dwarf King's Hold. Wasn't that supposed to be the next project on Mantic's plate once they get everything else dealt with?

Is that wishful thinking highlord tamburlaine, or something you have heard a rumour about?

I really like DKH, think it's got some great mechanics and is a lot of fun. It's also ridiculously cheap, and while that has no doubt help it sell, it does make me wonder what Mantic could do if they re-released an upgraded version in 2013; They've now got the supply chain in place to do better tiles, a greater variety of better quality miniatures, really nice printed rulebook - certainly the potential is there to do a proper boardgame D&D/Heroquest equivalent. I think a lot of gamers would pick it up in a heartbeat, even if it were priced at £50 or so.

Saxon wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Does anyone know when the new range of KoW stuff will hit stores, as opposed to the Kickstarter? Got me eyes on some o them trolls..

28th June.

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Advance-Orders/Advance-Orders-Kings-of-War/Product/Trolls-3-Figures.html

Thanks very much for that!