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Yeah, if you don't like the pics, I'd exchange ahead of time..

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Not even that,

the folk on their forums have also been asking for pictures etc (and being surprised when nothing is shown)

And then possibly not being surprised when some of the pictures do show up.

I really am amazed at the widely varying quality of the product they put out...

I thougth the reasons for the variance was established as a desire to stay on schedule despite a lack of really top notch scupltors being free, combined with a damn-near negligent lack of quality control.

 Polonius wrote:
I thougth the reasons for the variance was established as a desire to stay on schedule despite a lack of really top notch scupltors being free, combined with a damn-near negligent lack of quality control.

That is probably the case, but damn! If that's actually been stated publicly?

I'd suggest their priorities should be...shifted.

And I dare say that there would be very few people upset over delays IF it meant quality sculpts were the result.

they havne't said anything publicly on that line, that's just supposition.

I'm guessing Mantic has taken a quick look at their books, and realized that they make a lot of money of kickstarters, and being able to claim "we have a track record of making deadlines" while also showing improving quality (by all accounts the dreadball models are consistently better) is a good pitch.

It's frustrating, because more than anything, hard plastic sprues are rare opporunities, and medicore results really hurt the community.

 Azazelx wrote:
Serious question - are they doing the insular-disconnected thing? As in only listening to the feedback of the superfans that live on their own forums and writing off the rest of the internet as "haters" and "noise"?

I wish they listened to the feedback on their forums. And there are plenty of superfans like me who are vocal in their disgust of gakky models. Everyone seems to think Scarletsquig is a mega fanboy but he tears Mantic new ones with every missed opportunity.

There are definitely some sycophants on the Mantic forums, but that's with any company (GW white knights). I love Mantic because it's a buncha cool guys trying to put out neat things. But they're juggling like 25 balls right now and dropping at least a third of them.

It's really mind boggling how these things seem to shake out.

We're at a moment in the industry where there has never been more competition, and with every passing year more players enter the hard plastic marketplace. Mantic doesn't have the buffer for quality that some companies (PP or Wyrd, for example) have, that their units are so idiosyncratic that their really aren't alternatives. Mantic specializes in models that are intentionally kinda generic.

Consider the Deadzone plastics: when they finally come out, they are going to be (fingers crossed) on the market at roughly the same time as DreamForge puts out wave 3 (Mark's Heavy infantry and female Stormtroopers). Mantic's selling point can't only be that it's cheap.

 judgedoug wrote:
maybe I'm totally insane, but did everyone else forget that they're standing on 15mm circles? the models are tiny. the "mushiness" looks pretty much the same as these mantic skeletons i'm holding in my hands.

Didn't forget, but there's certain things like the base rim that serve as a good indicator to general tooling quality, even in low quality pictures.. that edge around the rim should be a sharp 90 degree angle between the top of the base and the rim, with a defined corner.

It doesn't have that, it has a curve. The goblins have curved-off integral base rims where they should be crisp edges too (if you look at any pics of any other mantic sprues online, the base rims are sharp)... so it's something you can look at immediately to determine whether the tooling is a bit mushy or not.

I'll do a fair review once I get mine delivered. I think I'll be fairly happy with them, but that's just speaking personally. I'm keen to have a fantasy human army and right now mantic are the only company that makes a proper fantasy human army as opposed to pseudo-historical of some sort (GW empire, bretonnians etc.). I may end up buying some GW demigryph knights to use as chariot proxies for the army, since I absolutely love the look of those (one of the few things in GW's post-7th edition empire range that doesn't look like ass).

touche, SS. thankfully my human army is my Red Box Games Helsvakt Horde otherwise i'd be very sad.

however, I'll still probably use my KS freebies as fantasy town guard in a skirmish or RPG.

nkelsch wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, if my Basileans come in mushy and looking like crap (I'm gonna detach a single one and paint it up), I'll email Mantic, let them know I'm not satisfied, and ask for a switch of equal value to my ogres. But I won't do that until they come in and I see how they look. I wait to reserve judgment, but I won't lie that I'm a bit nervous at the moment. Here's hoping things work out well.

Enjoy a 50$ return shipping for that exchange/refund!

Oh man, I kind of hope they do. Can you imagine the drama that they'll unleash when he posts the email requesting that? PP got away with terrible service for a while because they had great models. Mantic...has already burned through a lot of good will. I think most KS backers are just looking for an excuse to rage at them at this point.

If they send faulty products, they need to make good on it. That's a big if, for me, as I've only been disappointed with a small number of Mantic models. That said, I won't send back unless absolutely hideous, and as my Basilean additions, while through the survey manager, were not part of my original pledge, it's more like a preorder created through false advertising. Again, this is in case I'm unhappy. So far the troll legs haven't bothered me, I like the dwarves and undead, and the ogres are light years ahead of GW. Elves I've only seen pics, Abyssals and orcs are good, and I love the enforcers.

Mantic had a chance to rival GW but I think they have fluffed it, and although some of the models are interesting, I find the majority of them rather Sub Par, the angel army interested me but after seeing them, I'm glad I never pledged.

GW's CS is now far worse than PP now, they put you through hoops just to exchange a finecast monstrosity.

Honestly the best CS was from Wyrd, the guy was so nice and honestly, Id recommend them to everybody.

It'd say Mantic does rival GW. I'd say about 50% of GW's sculpts are garbage, and I'd say about 50% of Mantic's are crap too. Hopefully Mantic will one day pull ahead.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, if my Basileans come in mushy and looking like crap (I'm gonna detach a single one and paint it up), I'll email Mantic, let them know I'm not satisfied, and ask for a switch of equal value to my ogres. But I won't do that until they come in and I see how they look. I wait to reserve judgment, but I won't lie that I'm a bit nervous at the moment. Here's hoping things work out well.

Enjoy a 50$ return shipping for that exchange/refund!

Oh man, I kind of hope they do. Can you imagine the drama that they'll unleash when he posts the email requesting that? PP got away with terrible service for a while because they had great models. Mantic...has already burned through a lot of good will. I think most KS backers are just looking for an excuse to rage at them at this point.

I have the email... I was forced to do that in order to get my refund for my miscast season 2 models. I would have done season 1 as well but the size and weight would have cost me 80$ to ship it all back. The season 2 stuff was only 40ish dollars.

I decided it would be more cost effective to cancel my season 3 pledge and then buy models at retail than to get them shipped and return them if there are issues. I think they count on the return postage costing more than the models to discourage people.

You do know they replace miscast models for free? Of course you do. We were all around when you were throwing a hissy fit.

I've had miscast models. I got ahold of them and they sent me new ones. I didn't have to return anything! derp

nkelsch wrote:
I think they count on the return postage costing more than the models to discourage people.

Yes, because it's clear that Mantic is actually a hypercompetent, but very low stakes, supervillian. that's way, way more likley than them just being not very good at making minis.

 judgedoug wrote:
You do know they replace miscast models for free? Of course you do. We were all around when you were throwing a hissy fit.

I've had miscast models. I got ahold of them and they sent me new ones. I didn't have to return anything! derp

Oh Really? Considering 80-90% of season 2 was miscast, they asked me to send it all back. Season 2 cost 52$ invoice, and it cost me 42$ to ship it internationally. I have the email chain to prove it along with my shipping receipt and tracking info.

So I then had them cancel season 3 so I wouldn't get stuck in the same situation.

So beware if you are returning large number of models due to 'dissatisfaction' as they may on a whim to punish you by forcing you to return them via expensive postage. Something to consider if the images look 'poor' and you have second thoughts about a specific army you pledged for. You can pretend it 'doesn't work that way' but it does.

But feel free to blame me. I am just warning people they are better off not waiting for 'models in hand' to want to return them. Better change your pledge before it ships to make sure you get something you will be happy with.

nkelsch, just a tip on shipping to the UK... since the shipping price hike, I've used first class mail several times instead of priority. It actually arrived in the same amount of time, and was (I believe) about half the cost, or maybe even a bit less.

So... just something to keep in mind for the future!

If we could avoid rehashing that whole issue, I'd appreciate it though. I think the issue with the models here (KoW) is more of a lackluster original sculpt, than with "miscasts".

nkelsch wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
You do know they replace miscast models for free? Of course you do. We were all around when you were throwing a hissy fit.

I've had miscast models. I got ahold of them and they sent me new ones. I didn't have to return anything! derp

Oh Really? Considering 80-90% of season 2 was miscast, they asked me to send it all back. Season 2 cost 52$ invoice, and it cost me 42$ to ship it internationally. I have the email chain to prove it along with my shipping receipt and tracking info.

So I then had them cancel season 3 so I wouldn't get stuck in the same situation.

So beware if you are returning large number of models due to 'dissatisfaction' as they may on a whim to punish you by forcing you to return them via expensive postage. Something to consider if the images look 'poor' and you have second thoughts about a specific army you pledged for. You can pretend it 'doesn't work that way' but it does.

But feel free to blame me. I am just warning people they are better off not waiting for 'models in hand' to want to return them. Better change your pledge before it ships to make sure you get something you will be happy with.

Yes, you demanded a refund instead of a replacement. A refund on an investment. Hell, I wouldn't refund anyone, it's fething Kickstarter. If you don't want to fund stuff sight-unseen, then pre-order it after it's actually manufactured. But Mantic is excellent at _replacing_ miscast models for free.

 judgedoug wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
You do know they replace miscast models for free? Of course you do. We were all around when you were throwing a hissy fit.

I've had miscast models. I got ahold of them and they sent me new ones. I didn't have to return anything! derp

Oh Really? Considering 80-90% of season 2 was miscast, they asked me to send it all back. Season 2 cost 52$ invoice, and it cost me 42$ to ship it internationally. I have the email chain to prove it along with my shipping receipt and tracking info.

So I then had them cancel season 3 so I wouldn't get stuck in the same situation.

So beware if you are returning large number of models due to 'dissatisfaction' as they may on a whim to punish you by forcing you to return them via expensive postage. Something to consider if the images look 'poor' and you have second thoughts about a specific army you pledged for. You can pretend it 'doesn't work that way' but it does.

But feel free to blame me. I am just warning people they are better off not waiting for 'models in hand' to want to return them. Better change your pledge before it ships to make sure you get something you will be happy with.

Yes, you demanded a refund instead of a replacement. A refund on an investment. Hell, I wouldn't refund anyone, it's fething Kickstarter. If you don't want to fund stuff sight-unseen, then pre-order it after it's actually manufactured. But Mantic is excellent at _replacing_ miscast models for free.

But people returning gakky models because they look like garbage as was just discussed, you think mantic is going to exchange them 'for free'? No, if they ship you 200$ of models and they look like crap and you want to return them, prepare to pay a hefty international shipping penalty.

Hence if you are unsure of the quality of the sculpt and you might not be happy with them from the released photos and Mantics sketchy 'previews' then tell them to change your pledge to something you are pretty confident you will enjoy. By your own words, people should expect to 'eat it' if they dislike the final result regardless if Mantic previews it or not right? Then Mantic is incentivized to hide previews, send models sight-unseen and then encourage people to 'keep' them due to high return postage.

And they were not going to 'replace' my season 2 miscast pledge 'for free' and since I have no faith they could send me models which didn't have the sprue tears and mold lines in different parts of the model which didn't damage detail, I wanted a refund instead of 'replacement.' when I was going to be out 40$ either way and I would rather pick them up at retail where a 'return' doesn't cost me more than the model.

 judgedoug wrote:
Yes, you demanded a refund instead of a replacement. A refund on an investment. Hell, I wouldn't refund anyone, it's fething Kickstarter.

You might wish you had, if you were found to be in violation of the relevant consumer protection laws.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Yes, you demanded a refund instead of a replacement. A refund on an investment. Hell, I wouldn't refund anyone, it's fething Kickstarter.

You might wish you had, if you were found to be in violation of the relevant consumer protection laws.

Are there any that apply?

Ugh, can we get back on topic guys... that is a rabbit trail I think most of us have no desire to go down.

The last wave of this is shipping soon, right? I am looking forward to getting my golems

 RiTides wrote:
The last wave of this is shipping soon, right? I am looking forward to getting my golems

Yep. I think I have most of my last wave already sold to people.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Serious question - are they doing the insular-disconnected thing? As in only listening to the feedback of the superfans that live on their own forums and writing off the rest of the internet as "haters" and "noise"?

I wish they listened to the feedback on their forums. And there are plenty of superfans like me who are vocal in their disgust of gakky models. Everyone seems to think Scarletsquig is a mega fanboy but he tears Mantic new ones with every missed opportunity.
There are definitely some sycophants on the Mantic forums, but that's with any company (GW white knights). I love Mantic because it's a buncha cool guys trying to put out neat things. But they're juggling like 25 balls right now and dropping at least a third of them.

It's all relative. Squiggy is a megafan by Dakka standards, but I understand that he's far from it on the Mantic boards, and gets shouted down a lot whenever he raises these issues. I personally hate official forums and tend to avoid them like the plague, so I'd rather have that extra degree of separation by posting and getting my news from here instead, and aside from the few times I've skimmed them or gone looking for something specific, don't have a firsthand "feel" for their forums. I agree that Squiggy has become much more critical of gakky Mantic releases here as well, and I love him for that. /brohug


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Ugh, can we get back on topic guys... that is a rabbit trail I think most of us have no desire to go down.
The last wave of this is shipping soon, right? I am looking forward to getting my golems

Actually, if there are consumer protection laws that apply here, or to this sort of thing, I'd love to learn about them. The usual retort to KS is "well, it's a KS, you shoulda knew it was a gamble that you'd get anything at all", so any actual hard info on consumer protection would be welcomed.

Don't worry Tides, I'm looking forward to getting my models with your golems and passing them on. Despite my saying if things were amiss, I'd email them, I expect to be okay with things and I'll look forward to my 60 paladins, 80-100 MaAs, 20 mounted Pallies and sisters. Yeah, I went all out. Lol.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
It's really mind boggling how these things seem to shake out.

We're at a moment in the industry where there has never been more competition, and with every passing year more players enter the hard plastic marketplace. Mantic doesn't have the buffer for quality that some companies (PP or Wyrd, for example) have, that their units are so idiosyncratic that their really aren't alternatives. Mantic specializes in models that are intentionally kinda generic.

To be fair, there's currently a 8+ page thread on the PP forums complaining about their own plastic models

Well, the best plastics manufacturers are Wargames Factory and Renedra at this point. Mantic really really needs to partner up with them (or re-partner in the case of Renedra).

Actually, interestingly, recent Warlord releases that I've gotten have been on sprues that have not had the ubiquitious "made in england by renedra" stamped on the frame. I know there was a rumor that Warlord was going to start doing plastic in-house but I wonder if it's more that they found another plastics company and have perhaps invested heavily into them.

My point being - Mantic and Warlord should join forces, like Mongoose has for the Dredd minis game.

Yeah, this is definitely something they need to do. Also, hooking back up with Bob Naismith or another talented bloke to do the sculpting would be a great boon too. Too many unknown talents making mediocre or poor sculpts in the KoW kickstarter unfortunately.

There was that independant company who was making their own plastic injection via a kickstarter, but I didn't see how that went. I don't think they were interested in getting into it, which is a shame.

^ You mean PDC which had a successful KS that I backed?

That's... actually quite interesting, now that you mention it.

Their sprues look like this:




Round sprue rather than square, no labelling other than on flat label pieces within the sprue itself.

Which is basically identical to what the men at arms sprues look like.

Possibility that Mantic are already using them? Or do lots of companies tool sprues in this sort of fashion?

I'm thinking probably not since PDC only got up and running about 3 months back and have had a ton of their own stuff to do (which is looking really high quality) but it's interesting to note the similarities while trying to guess the tooling company.

Still eagerly awaiting the pics of the (rather elusive!) hard plastic stormwind cavalry and dark knights.. if anyone gets their KS delivery, get those cellphone pics on dakka pronto!

It's all relative. Squiggy is a megafan by Dakka standards, but I understand that he's far from it on the Mantic boards, and gets shouted down a lot whenever he raises these issues.

Not at all, people are fine with criticism on the mantic boards and more people should join. The only thing they have a short fuse for over there is permanently negative armchair analysts (the kind that don't buy the models or play the game but complain anyway), extremely harshly-worded criticism or people who complain about mantic lowering their prices (yes, this has actually become one of the most common complaints about mantic. ).

It's kickstarter comments sections that get ugly, you can't post anything without getting mobbed, or having the comment buried under a 100-comment long ramble where the same 3-5 backers talk about their pet dogs/ cars/ babies. :p

And even then, the comments on the updates aren't afflicted by this, making them the best place to have a sane discussion during a mantic KS.