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So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?

Aye, a big thanks to the RC for their contributions!

I think for the moment I may just stick with KoW1, at least until the full/not-Beta version of 2.0 is out, as I'm only just getting familliar with the costs for that, so changing them immediately might be a tad confusing.

Some of the changes I do really like, such as the new shooting mods and spells, but I have to say the removal of units and complete recostings strikes me as really rather un-Mantic. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be a great game in the end, KoW1 is a pretty great foundation to have built on.

Maybe they're just refiguring the balance with the removed units, maybe they're going to be released on a later date?

Really makes you wonder why they even hired Alessio... seems like he just made everything worse. Id have much preferred it if the RC had gotten his pay. <.<

So having faced endless swarms MANY times I can say I'm glad to see those go, but sad for my opponent who loved fielding multiples of them. I'm still trying to figure out the point changes as there's so many that have me scratching my head, but my Orcs seem to be slightly better off with some getting better NE scores, albeit only by one or two points. The really strange changes I see are the switch from crushing strength to the thunderous charge rules on some units. I get the concept for the change, but it was sooooo much easier to remember that these guys were CS 3 and these were CS 2, now I have mixed crushing strength AND thunderous charge.

Taaloc wrote:
So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?

Because he's the boss? In the sports context think of him as the GM. Unless the owners fire him he's the one making the trades and signings, not the players or the coach.

Ah OK, I guess I had this idea from somewhere that he was like a freelancer working on behalf of Mantic but that the final say would lie with them. Happy to be corrected!

Taaloc wrote:
Ah OK, I guess I had this idea from somewhere that he was like a freelancer working on behalf of Mantic but that the final say would lie with them. Happy to be corrected!

I'm not sure if there is sarcasm there but I don't see how being a freelancer contradicts my analogy. Owners have the final say over GMs, but if you aren't going to let them do thier job why hire them in the first place. Yes Mantic could over rule Alessio, but if they were going to that fairly often, why hire him to act as lead author in the first place.

No sarcasm.

I haven't had time to sit down and compare versions, but it looks like they addressed the major issues with the previous edition, and the previous edition was pretty solid to begin with.

They didn't update, or include the Twlight Kin, which sucks for people who only play Twilight Kin, but it at least sounds like they are trying to take them away from being Not Dark Elves.

With all the people who will inevitabley rage quit Warhammer Fantasy later this year, when the new edition drops, these could be great times indead of KoW.

Well, Alessio is normally quite an understanding guy and Ronnie is at times quiet easily distracted by the next shiny thing. So I assume the problem lies somwhere in between.

Taaloc wrote:
So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?

Who/what is RC?

Rules Committee.

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.

That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.

I'd actually say rebalancing some units was the #1 change that had to occur. If there's only going to be a really short playtest, I hope they separate the lists from the core rules and consider letting the rules committee make annual updates to the armylists to tweak things.

decker_cky wrote:

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.

That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.

I'd actually say rebalancing some units was the #1 change that had to occur. If there's only going to be a really short playtest, I hope they separate the lists from the core rules and consider letting the rules committee make annual updates to the armylists to tweak things.

This would be an ideal solution to the issues at hand, but is an absolute non-starter.

Can I just, very respectfully make a comment here, as someone who has been in this business for a while?

Our industry is very, VERY small. Small enough that it is easy to make a name for yourself, for good or ill, at any level of contribution. As such, it is REALLY bad form, and not necessarily the smartest choice tactically to air grievances in a way which can come across as petty.

I am not saying your issues are or are not valid, but at the end of the day (and I am not saying this is justice), a veteran game maker gets to veto the thoughts of volunteers. Again, not saying it is "right", but it "is". It happens in every other industry as well, incidentally, but in this one, sometimes being classy, a team player, and keeping things internal is FAR more beneficial than just trying to loudly point out that you are a better designer than someone who build his name on decades more published works. :-p

You know, I do some work for Mantic too, and I even have a small bit of involvement in this project... but other than a playful tease here or there, I don't mention every disagreement, and I certainly don't always get my way, even when I genuinely believe I am in the right. :-p Its just about professional courtesy at some point, y;know?

Glad I haven't finalised my pledge yet. I was going to order some salamanders for an Abyssal army however their not in the beta list?

Right. Nothing has ever changed for the better when the peons got noisy. Shut up and take your lumps, and everything will turn out for the best. This is true in every industry.


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On another note, those salamanders look amazing. Maybe I need to go for a closer look than the iPad can give, but they look well textured an brutal, like lizarddwarfs on a warpath.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Right. Nothing has ever changed for the better when the peons got noisy. Shut up and take your lumps, and everything will turn out for the best. This is true in every industry.

Which was NOT what I meant. It is entirely valid to do one's job to the utmost, and even respectfully say internally that the direction something is going is the wrong one. Its good for your conscious to do so, and might even inspire changes if heard by the right person.

What doesn't help is then going to an unrelated, outside group and airing said problems knowing fully that all involved parties aren't there to say their piece as well.

Keeping it classy, and being a team player doesn't mean being a sheep or a dolt... but its about choosing your venue and realizing your actions can have consequences for a lot of people outside yourself... people who may be, for example, fiscally be effected. Volunteering your time comes with the assumption that you are passionate and informed, and your time should be appreciated, and thoughts considered... of course! But just because you're only a small, or unpaid part of a team, doesn't mean you aren't a part of that team, and probably shouldn't throw fellows under a bus. :-p

In my experience, keeping dissent internal only achieves one thing, getting the whistleblower blacklisted. Professional courtesy almost always favors those with the power over those who have a legitimate grievance.


Besides, didn't everyone state repeatedly that they tried keeping it internal and talking the right Mantic people and got nothing for it, except maybe some petty last minute rules changes out of spite?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Rules Committee.

Thanks for the clarification. It does seem a bit odd from reading this thread to apparently go through the effort of setting up a rules committee and then keeping them in the dark and ignoring them. It sounds a bit like a cold war era Soviet bloc election.

It sounds GW-esque.

Really not happy at Twilight Kin being left out. They're my main army in KOW :-(

Dakka just seems to have swallowed my post... dammit.
The gist was: RC are volunteers, thus they arent bound by professional courtesy or any other industry conventions, and veterans like AC can **** up just as badly as complete newbs, see Peter Molyneaux as a prominent example.
Plus, I really cant blame the RC for wanting to share what theyve experienced, since without info, everyone would put the blame for anything that may have gone wrong so far on their shoulders.

So a few pages of complaints, there must be some battle reports from people having tried out the revisions?

No?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
reputation stuff

At this point I really don't care. I had considered moving into games design but having seen how the industry works, especially one of the industries most respected designers, I have no desire to work in it. I'm sure it'll equally want nothing to do with me, but that's absolutely no skin off my back.

More clarification stuff;
The majority of stuff that the RC said/asked for was implemented, even if it was done in a different way that had some adverse effects. Initially everything came together quickly, which is why people saw initial statements from the RC indicating that the beta might have been out in November. The finer points are where things started to unravel.

Been reading the feedback on the Beta on the Mantic Blog, and I am dissapointed in some of the ridiculous complaints and people ignoring answers to their own questions.

There is a thread complaining that Forces of the Abyss are not kid friendly enough
He's actually objecting to Succubus having a sex oriented theme, Fleshlings sounding dirty, and is upset because SUPRISE the army of Demons, Devils, and Nightmares is not thematically appropriate for his puritan views.

Anything that was removed for ANY reason, has 10 people not only calling the change stupid but questioning the entire 2nd edition, because that single change will force them to change their army some how.

Was the thing removed from your list still in another list that you can ally back in, while still using the same models ? Nope that's not good enough.

People arguing changes making KoW too much like Warhammer in equal numbers to people arguing for changes that did or would make KoW more like Warhammer.

IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.

privateer4hire wrote:
IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.

That's a fair concern.

It's been stated that Mantic is pushing for Allies to be included in all tournament play.

 judgedoug wrote:
So a few pages of complaints, there must be some battle reports from people having tried out the revisions?
No?

Don't have time to play for at least another week, and generally speaking, I've been put off.


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 adamsouza wrote:

Was the thing removed from your list still in another list that you can ally back in, while still using the same models ? Nope that's not good enough.

How about the things that were removed from your list now requiring a unit of troops from another list? How about wanting to include two of the removed things not being possible since they come from "Good" and "Evil" lists, so you'd need two units of troops from different races, except you can't ally with both good and evil?

Apparently that's good enough for you?



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 scarletsquig wrote:

https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-2-beta/218840-armylists-an-explanation-of-points-values
Basically, we were given a unit, with a fixed statline, and a cost of 100 points, with a statement that this could not be changed and was the new immutable baseline and that all other units in the game should be re-pointed based on that.
And that this needed to be done within a deadline of one week.

That's fething ridiculous. On more than one level.

Please do playtest the beta as much as possible in the next 3 weeks, while a lot of work and effort was put into the re-pointing by the RC, one week was nowhere near enough time (and not enough to get playtest games in). That's where the community comes in.
All feedback will be taken seriously and posted directly to Mantic.

3 weeks? Again, a fething ridiculous timeframe.

Rather amusingly most of the public feedback we've had so far is suggesting ideas that the RC wanted and suggested anyway, so I think we're on the ball with it.

It's ok. I suspect they'll ignore our feedback as they did with yours.

And despite my tone here, I would again like to thank the RC for their hard work on this. Your version of the rules sound a lot better than AC's at this stage.


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 adamsouza wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:
IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.

That's a fair concern.
It's been stated that Mantic is pushing for Allies to be included in all tournament play.

They can "push" for whatever they like, but we all know it won't happen in a lot of tourneys.