[Kings of War] Mantic Fantasy News & Rumors

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**Hulksmash**

.Mikes. wrote:
Mantic have been open that the rules would be similar to the free rules booklet from first ed throughout. Some people wanted the full rules and lists, and feel it's someone else's fault and not their own expectations.

For reference, this was the dwarf list from the first ed free booklet:

Three units and two warengines. The newly released free lists have 14 units, machines and heroes and the core rules allow people to play the game.

I seriously wonder how some people cope with the disappointment they must every day of their lives.

Or you could acknowledge that their people (or people who want to work for them) have been pushing "KoW's Free to Play" super hard, especially in the Age of Sigmar thread and now people who were interested are getting something different. And also acknowledge that if this was the first "communication mixup" instead of 20th (slight exaggeration) that people would be more inclined to not be annoyed.

**.Mikes.**

Other people saying things is now also Mantic's fault? Okay,

**Hulksmash**

.Mikes. wrote:
Other people saying things is now also Mantic's fault? Ooookay,

People that are on the Rule Committee or that say things like "I spoke w/so and so from Mantic today" does make it more mantics fault. God forbid if GW had hinted at free rules and something like this had happened. But because it's not GW we're acting inappropriately pointing out an issue with repeated miscommunication. Ooookay.

This doesn't even go into Beast of War getting information before people who actively backed and supported Mantic's kickstarter for KoW.

**heartserenade**

But the rest of the V1 dwarf list was complete, right? Of course people were expecting the same.

And at least they're communicating with their audience. The apology kinda removed some of my disappointment (but not all). I mean, I get that they want you to buy the rules and I'm cool with that: D&D does the same with their rules. It just felt like they weren't so upfront about that that makes people feel betrayed.

**.Mikes.**

No, what I posted was the dwarf list in the free rules, the next page was elves.

**infinite_array**

.Mikes. wrote:
No, what I posted was the dwarf list in the free rules, the next page was elves.

No, what you posted were the free rules included in the box sets.

The online V1 army list had the following units:
Ironclads
Ironguard
Shieldbreakers
Ironwatch
Rangers
Bulwarkers
Berserk Brock Riders
Berserkers
Ironbelcher Cannon
Flamebelcher
Ironbelcher Organ Gun
Dwarf King
Warsmith
Dwarf Army Standard Bearer
Berserker Lord
Herneas the Hunter
Battle Driller
Steel Behemoth

Compare that to the new online army list which only contains:
Ironclad
Bulwarkers
Shieldbreakers
Ironwatch Crossbows/Rifles
Ironbelcher Organ Gun
Sharpshooters
Jarrun Bombard
Berserk Brock Riders
King
Ironbelcher Cannon
Warmsith
Army Standard Bearer
Garrek Heavy Hand

You may see why people get slightly upset when full army lists for V1 (with pared down core rules) suddenly become incomplete army lists for V2.

**.Mikes.**

None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.

There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.

**RiTides**

heartserenade wrote:
And at least they're communicating with their audience. The apology kinda removed some of my disappointment (but not all). I mean, I get that they want you to buy the rules and I'm cool with that: D&D does the same with their rules. It just felt like they weren't so upfront about that that makes people feel betrayed.

Agreed, I'm happy that at least on facebook they acknowledged that they messed up - I can wait, honestly, just they really built up to things like it would be fully revealed today.

infinite_array wrote:
You may see why people get slightly upset when full army lists for V1 (with pared down core rules) suddenly become incomplete army lists for V2.

I personally think full army lists and pared down rules would be much better than the other way around. You could even list the army lists in such a way that would still make you want the book - perhaps not include all the special items each unit has or the like. Doing it the other way around can make it feel like you've got the steak, but no steak knife to dig into it with

Of course that makes sense in that they want people to buy the rules, it just wasn't clear they were going this route. I've already preordered the rules and a kind Dakkanaut is going to let me look at their pdf, so again no worries here!

**privateer4hire**

infinite_array wrote:
Sigh. It's just like Mantic to be sprinting to the finish line and then stumble at the very end.

Please don't blame them.
They're in the middle of fulfilling Kickstarter stuff

**Compel**

The thing is, if mantic had the free rules, like fully free, it would feed very much the perception of, Mantic Games beating Games workshop at their own game.

Now, it actually makes Mantic look meaner and more churlish than GW by them saying "we'll give you free rules for half the units."

If GW hadn't done the whole AoS free rules thing, I wouldn't have made a peep about this.

Now? I'm not annoyed that mantic aren't giving fully free rules. I'm more feeling annoyed that it looks like Mantic have squandered another opportunity, again.

And I don't like feeling like that.

**heartserenade**

I just checked and all of my units in my KoM are in the free list. Also with the Undead list I was planning on. So at least I have that going for me.

It'd be a bummer for WHFB players looking to transition since they have the more unique units which are not included in the free lists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

.Mikes. wrote:
None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.

There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.

From Mantic from their Kickstarter 03.07.2015:

"Next week well have your PDF download of the complete Kings of War 2nd Edition Rulebook ready to send out."

That's misleading right there.

**overtyrant**

heartserenade wrote:
I just checked and all of my units in my KoM are in the free list. Also with the Undead list I was planning on. So at least I have that going for me.

It'd be a bummer for WHFB players looking to transition since they have the more unique units which are not included in the free lists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

.Mikes. wrote:
None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.

There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.

From Mantic from their Kickstarter 03.07.2015:

"Next week well have your PDF download of the complete Kings of War 2nd Edition Rulebook ready to send out."

That's misleading right there.

That's for KS backers who will be getting the complete book of the pdf. There was some spelling mistakes they wanted to get ironed out first.

**heartserenade**

And the KS backers still didn't get their pdfs =___=. i mean, sure they're trying to correct typos but that should've been included in their schedule BEFORE release.

**cerealkiller195**

Even though me and my friend have not played whfb in quite some time I told him about kow. He was instantly intrigued that he could use any miniatures and still be tournament legal. He is now devising an army of huge Golems and will research which list fits him best lol

**Daedleh**

.Mikes. wrote:
None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.

There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.

The V1 free rules online had complete army lists. At no point did Mantic say that the V2 rules would have trimmed down army lists like the mini rulebook. If the V2 rules we got yesterday were the equivalent of the mini rulebook and Mantic had been saying that it would be the mini rulebook then there would have been no issue. Instead everything pointed to it being the same as the V1 downloads. Even after the links were put up the fact that they were samples only wasn't clear, which led to a lot of "Why did you remove xxx unit?!?" threads.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

heartserenade wrote:
And the KS backers still didn't get their pdfs =___=. i mean, sure they're trying to correct typos but that should've been included in their schedule BEFORE release.

We did correct a lot of typos, but we were looking for what was there - not what wasn't there. There's also one which has still snuck through - the Melee/Defence of a KoM Footguard horde.

**Pacific**

I think I ended up pledging $1 on the last KS (meant to add more but just didn't get round to it - I had no idea that GW would do AoS and that I might suddenly have the opportunity of some KoW opponents!)

So, reading their email presumably that means I'll get the full PDF when it's released?

**mattjgilbert**

Pacific wrote:
I think I ended up pledging $1 on the last KS (meant to add more but just didn't get round to it - I had no idea that GW would do AoS and that I might suddenly have the opportunity of some KoW opponents!)

So, reading their email presumably that means I'll get the full PDF when it's released?

I'm not sure. You might have had to go in for one of the higher pledge levels, not just the $1 add-on level, to qualify. I can't remember.

**scarletsquig**

To clarify the whole situation with the free army lists, this was in fact something that happened with v1.

The timeline went like this:

1. v1 hardback released, mini-rulebook released as free .pdf

2. Some months passed. (I recall personally complaining on the old mantic forums at this point!).

3. Full army lists released online (including the three new armies eventually).

Mantic waited on releasing them for free by the request of their retailers who did not want to have unsellable hard-copy books on their shelves as a result of the .pdf being free to download.

A similar thing will most likely happen with v2.

**Da Boss**

Shame about the fumble, but I'm not too bothered. I'll pick up the rulebook at some stage, it's a fairly minor expense for what I'll get out of it.

Complete, free lists would have been nice, but I understand that Mantic is not in a position to continue to mug off retailers if it wants to grow the game - retailers are already unimpressed by the Kickstarter culture and being undercut by deals on the Mantic site itself. GW can afford to be a bit harder with retailers because they're such a big part of the market.

**Mutter**

In the KoM-list is a nice little error for the Foot Guard, which gets worse when fileded as a horde ...

**Thunderfrog**

Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.

Edit.

A LOT of their armies seem to have .. drawn inspiration.. from that particular art style.

Basilians?

Infernals.

[/img]

Forces of Nature is a Heroes III army itself..

**OgreChubbs**

I don't know about you guys but I can't help but feel they are just giving us all the middle finger. And they are just making a joke of all this with those crappy models.

**Nostromodamus**

I think it's more a case of classic depictions of Angels and Demons all looking similar rather than Mantic ripping off Might and Magic...

As to the models, I'm happy with them all.

**RiTides**

I think it was a misunderstanding, but just a bit foolish for them not to have seen it coming. Still looking forward to the full rules release!

**Grot 6**

judgedoug wrote:
What's actually rather cool is Ronnie is actively replying on Facebook...

Ronnie Renton - Richard Heath I gave seen you email. I an sorry you feel misled but I don't think we could have been any clearer. These are the 'free to try' rules with all the rules from the game. The army lists have everything in the army sets plus extra bits and any obvious units that people normally have in other armies. Magic items are always eirher excluded from the give aways or a little taster is put in. I think throughout we have been saying 'Try it' with free rules and this is that. We are keeping some of new units back for the full launch next month.

Ronnie Renton - All the army lists will be complete in both the hardback and soft back books. In the coming weeks we will be showing off all the new units and featuring each army so we can keep up the focus. We have always has leave selected bits out of the free downloads otherwise the retailers refuse to stock the book. It has always been a balancing act between offering enough to give the game a try and introduce new people and not for you to have to buy the book until you know it is a purchase you want to make.

Ronnie Renton - So Richard Heath will everything be free - no. Will the rules be free - yes. Will all the armies have all their core units and a heap of colourful units in an army list to download for free. Yes. Will you have to buy the book to try it - nope. But do I want you to have reason to buy the book if you like the game - yes. I need that to be the case to be able to keep making more. I try to give as much as it is possible to give while still having bits saved for the print of paid for download edition.

Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.

Ronnie Renton - And more is coming so 5hanks for being patient.

I felt that this deserved a repost.

**Pacific**

Alex C wrote:
I think it's more a case of classic depictions of Angels and Demons all looking similar rather than Mantic ripping off Might and Magic...

As to the models, I'm happy with them all.

Yes these are just standard sorts of fantasy 'tropes'.

I'm actually looking forward most to the 'Nature' human forces, is there still a plan to give this more of a range of minis?

**Azazelx**

Daedleh wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.

There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.

The V1 free rules online had complete army lists. At no point did Mantic say that the V2 rules would have trimmed down army lists like the mini rulebook. If the V2 rules we got yesterday were the equivalent of the mini rulebook and Mantic had been saying that it would be the mini rulebook then there would have been no issue. Instead everything pointed to it being the same as the V1 downloads. Even after the links were put up the fact that they were samples only wasn't clear, which led to a lot of "Why did you remove xxx unit?!?" threads.

Now will Mikes attempt to tell off Daedleh (or Scarlet Squig) for expecting too much of Mantic in his typical style?

**Wonderwolf**

Thunderfrog wrote:
Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.

Edit.

A LOT of their armies seem to have .. drawn inspiration.. from that particular art style.

Basilians?

Don't even need to look that far outside miniature gaming itself

**AlexHolker**

Thunderfrog wrote:
Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.

The Lesser Infernals and Succubi do remind me of Might & Magic Maniacs and Succubi. The Lesser Infernals still look pretty poor, though, and the Molochs are complete crap. I would have much preferred that the Succubi get an expansion sprue for Winged Succubi than the Lesser Infernal flamethrowers.

And it's fething stupid to put the complete rules behind two different paywalls - making it easy to argue that Mantic is being more money-grubbing than GW at the moment - instead of making it all available for free. The retailers want to sell books? Don't they want to sell the big, expensive monster kits that are unusable without an inclusive ruleset?

**NAVARRO**

Oh more drama! GW gives me enough of that already.

With that said I believe they should drop the flag that the rules are free and just sell the rulebooks instead, and get on with it.

Never played but the game from what I have seen looks simple and fun and with regiments and points, not sure If I can bring the totality of my WFB armies into this but soon I need to make up my mind if I go Mantic or GW way.