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At least the value has continued to rise. The scenery helps, as will the modular buildings. I hope they have some roof bits like Mars Attacks for some height advantage though.

Plus Company of Iron isn't metal, it's their gakky plastic I thought. Althought when you consider a single 10 man unit of that stuff is about 10 to 15 less than Company of Iron, it's still a pretty good deal.
Too bad it's totally sold out in my area. Would have given me an excuse to pick up some more Trollbloods.

At least there's some new Ogres to look forward to here!

If the Horror is in PVC, it is going to more than just live up to its name...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
At least the value has continued to rise. The scenery helps, as will the modular buildings. I hope they have some roof bits like Mars Attacks for some height advantage though.

The way this is going a single sprue of ruins is probably all they'll be able to do. I don't foresee complete "unruined" buildings being part of the KS. I'll chip in $20 to $40 for some ruins if/when they unlock.

They're now talking about the possibility of 2 waves of shipping so all the new stuff doesn't hold up the curerently available stuff they've bunged in as add ons


not clear if this is going to be a paid for option, or just something they cover under the existing shipping costs

it must be frustrating that all their plans to simplify the KS and the eventual fulfilment have gone up in smoke but without the changes I don't see that this would have gone anywhere

Update #7

Sisterhood Scouts make their appearance! Plus - Nightstalker Scarecrow Concepts

Ho! Vanguardians,

Great news! We've just passed the $85,000 mark and that means two Sisterhood Scouts have been added to the Basilean Warband in the Join the Vanguard pledge and the Two-Player Set.



Silently stalking ahead of the main warband, the whistle of the Sisterhood Scouts is often the first warning of danger for the other members of their retinue. Typically the first an enemy will know of a Scout's presence is the thud of an arrow through their chest, or the cold press of a knife against their throat.

For the next set of stretch goals, make sure you check the update earlier in which we've announced the next few stretch goals up to $100,000. The next goal on the horizon is the alternate weapons for the brutal Butcher, along with an extra miniature to use as a potential leader for your Nightstalkers warband.



SCARECROW CONCEPTS

Unfortunately we're still waiting on the renders of the hard plastic Nightstalker Scarecrows. However, we've got this piece of concept artwork, which should give you a good idea of the options you'll have when creating your Scarecrows.



Oh, and talking of artwork, a lot of you liked that piece of artwork earlier. So what about another to keep you going for a bit longer?

Man those scarecrows have potential, too bad they are literally shooting them in the foot with the whole flaming foot thing

If the flames were optional bits to glue on them, that'd be cool.

Gotta agree with having them be flameless as a default.

Are the added Sisterhood Scouts going to be HIPS?

 corgan wrote:
Are the added Sisterhood Scouts going to be HIPS?

PVC single sculpt/pose (might be an alternate sculpt later as there was an alt. concept art shown)

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
If the flames were optional bits to glue on them, that'd be cool.

Gotta agree with having them be flameless as a default.

Flames? They look like ethereal tentacles to me, which fits everything else in the Nightstalkers, no flames involved in this army.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
If the flames were optional bits to glue on them, that'd be cool.

Gotta agree with having them be flameless as a default.

Flames? They look like ethereal tentacles to me, which fits everything else in the Nightstalkers, no flames involved in this army.

Apparently you are right, from the comments...

Mantic wrote:The legs on the Scarecrows are tentacles, not flames, by the way.

I dont see it my self, but oh well

Tentacles down their legs? Anyone else reminded of the novel Tommyknockers?

Matt Gilbert 11 minutes ago
We will see if it’s possible on the second floor of the ruins but it will depend on whether there’s any space left on the tool!

 Sarouan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

As to GW - you left out 'And Crappy, Crappy Rules!' - which is the other thing that GW has become known for. (Let us be honest - the General's Handbook for AoS was pretty much a gigantic errata that the customers had to pay for. Hurray, GW!)

Guess you're forgetting what came after AoS. But seems like you conveniently just focused on this episode and think GW did nothing to these days.

Not forgetting - ignoring.

GW has lost me as a customer - and is going to have to go to extraordinary lengths to get me back.

Necromunda is an example of such an extraordinary step. This may well bring me back in.

The latest WH40K is not an extraordinary step. After three editions of increasingly crappy 40K rules, I sold off my army - and will not be returning to the game. (The last edition of 40K that I actually liked was 3rd.)

The attempt at Warhammer Quest is not an extraordinary step - it in no way looks like an improvement of the rules for the older game.

Board games in general are not an extraordinary step.

Betrayal at Caith - rules wise, was very much not an extraordinary step.

Shadow War Armageddon was not an extraordinary step - it did nothing that was not done better by the old Necromunda. (Again - the new Necromunda may well bring me back as a customer... but I am going to look long and hard before committing.)

Then go back to 7th and 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle - which left the game with such a fragmented fanbase that they ended up blowing up the setting.

They had killed the game that had made me a customer in the first place. (I had been a player since MacDeath.)

This is what they have become known for.

Then, on top of bad rules, they started suing left right and center, and exerting pressure even on their own fan sites.

So, I am standing by my statement - they lost me due to crappy crappy rules and terrible, terrible interactions with their market.

I am glad that Rountree is reversing much of this - but it does not undo the fact that GW did so in the first place, and continued doing so for over a decade - longer than Mantic has even been around..

So, GW, as far as I am concerned, is starting over from a negative position, built up over a decade and more.

Mantic carries no such baggage, and the rules that I have played from them have ranged from good to excellent. (A caveat - I have not played all Mantic rules - I have so far skipped Dungeon Saga and Warpath.)

On the average, their rules have been superior, in my opinion, to the bulk of GW's releases over the past decade - inclusive of the current releases..

Kings of War is clean, and actually makes an attempt at balance - with a lot of feedback from their market. I have not enjoyed a game of Warhammer as much since 2nd and 3rd editions.

And in many ways KoW is superior to those ancient rules - I have been able to teach KoW to nine year old players. (And was kind of miffed, last game - I was not needed. They just played, and never even had to ask me a question... I felt redundant.)

Dreadball may, in point of fact, be one of the best games that I do not like. (Great rules - but I can't stand the game.)

Deadzone... I liked 1st edition better than 2nd, but 2nd did address some pretty serious balance issues. (The pinning and cover rules in 1st edition Deadzone were kludgy - but I really liked them.)

***

Played a few games of the Alpha rules for Vanguard - not bad, not bad at all.

The real test is going to be the campaign rules - and that puts it in competition with Mordheim... which is my all time favorite table top miniatures game.

The game has been out of print for a decade and more - and I still run campaigns.

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Tentacles down their legs? Anyone else reminded of the novel Tommyknockers?

Actually... that seems a good fit for the night stalkers in general.

Late last night, and the night before,
Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers,
Knocking at my door.

I want to go out, don't know if I can.
I'm just too afraid of the tommyknocker man....

The Auld Grump

If you've not seen the latest update they've decided to change the $90k stretch goal to include about 5 more minis. If they are happy throwing the kitchen sink in now then why didn't they have a decent value pledge at the outset? I guess they had a reveal schedule that they have nowhere near stuck to due to their crappy initial offerings so now they have to just throw things in or we aren't going to see everything (like those northern alliance minis they already have sculpted up).

The more they throw in to try to get the total up, the more nervous I get about their ability to fulfill.

Looks like a dump of the wave of "fake stretch goals." The stuff that should have been in the sets from the start, because they were always intended to be in the retail.

I was expecting a panic update like this one soon. I honestly thought it'd come with Add-On Wednesday.

Looks like their usual method of skimping on the initial offering and assuming the usual skyrocketing stretch goals has combined with their development of some caution due over promising on early campaigns,to bite them on the ass this time.

With a terribly under-value initial offering + Kickstarter glut + a saturated fantasy skirmish market, they lost their usual "holy gak lookit all the miniatures I get!" initial buy-in wave. So we didn't blow through the first wave of fake stretch goals. So us $1 watchers have no reason to jump in, too. So...this KS hit the Mantic middle slump on Day 2 of 17...before funding completed.

I'm predicting that it won't be long before we get a video of "Crazy Ronnie" coming in to throw more stuff into the pledge levels.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
The more they throw in to try to get the total up, the more nervous I get about their ability to fulfill.

As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.

So, if the KS pays for the molds etc, then whether they toss in 3 sprues or 4, is hardly going to wreck fulfillment. Especially since most of the time, Mantic don't send out printed boxes, just sprues for KS spenders.

I just hope it's not like Dungeon Saga figure packs, where stuff comes in 2's but you need 3 for a KoW unit. I'm sure people would transition from Vanguard to KoW better if they realised they already had a full unit or two and bosses.

Good news for Canadian backers at least; Mantic will ship Canadian orders via Royal Mail.

I am all in right now. Also pledged for a few KoW warbands, MaA sprues and ruins assuming they fund.

 domobomb wrote:
Good news for Canadian backers at least; Mantic will ship Canadian orders via Royal Mail.

I am all in right now. Also pledged for a few KoW warbands, MaA sprues and ruins assuming they fund.

Just hope that they stick to that promise and don't decide to do it differently come crunch time.

Mmmm what Mantic say during a KS versus what Mantic do at fulfilment is not always the same thing.

Yeah, I agree. Hope they do.

If I get a DHL tracking number come fulfillment time it will be last KS I back, haha.

Regarding the tentacles on the scarecrows, someone in the comments had a brilliant idea that should be shared

Kevin G. VonFeldt wrote:If I may make a suggestion, what about instead of molding the tentacles onto the legs of the Scarecrows, putting tentacles on the plastic Scarecrows sprue similar to how orclings, imps, otters/frogs, and flames are on orcs, abyssals, naiads, and salamander sprues

Mantic seemed open to the idea

Mantic wrote:@Kevin - good idea, we'll see what we can do.

Yeah, the scarecrow sprues would be much less useful to me if they're too specifically darkspawn scarecrows to be generic animated scarecrows.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.

As per the posts here complaining at what the KS project is offering compared to established, already produced games, no, not everyone.

Why does EVERYONE in Mantica wear loincloth or have some kind of cloth dangling between their legs?
It looks incredibly unpractical, especially if you are supposed to be some kind of ranger/scout. The heavy armor plates on the legs on the sister also look out of place on an otherwise ok model.

Someone at Mantic must think that loincloths look cool.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.

As per the posts here complaining at what the KS project is offering compared to established, already produced games, no, not everyone.

This is kind of a counter-intuitive argument. If it costs almost nothing to produce extra minis then why not make the initial kickstarter offerings worth the cost to backers? They were already using monopose minis, it wouldn't have hurt them to throw a few more repetitions of each in. I think most people are aware of the economics of miniatures, which is why they were so surprised at the lack of generosity from Mantic given that it would have cost them practically nothing to make the pledge levels more fair to backers.

The paltry offering is down to Mantic's strategy of starting small and throwing in the kitchen sink so as to build excitement during the course of the campaign. You can see it in the attempts of the community manager to try and steer topics onto things like "What scenarios do you want to see" when everyone is talking about the lack of value in the comments, or the desperation to make it sound like the project is rocketing along in each update, rather than crawling forward at a snails pace. If they can afford to start throwing handfuls of miniatures at backers now then it's certainly not concerns about price staying their hand at the beginning.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

The real test is going to be the campaign rules - and that puts it in competition with Mordheim... which is my all time favorite table top miniatures game.

If they do the same than for Walking Dead or Dungeon Saga, then I suggest you to start getting disappointed. It will help in the end when you will see what the rules will be.

Face it : Vanguard is not intended to be like Mordheim. It's just a generic skirmish fantasy game, like there are so many on the market. It just means it will be the one made by Mantic.

Since you didn't play the other games, I can see why you have such a gullible view of Mantic's way of acting. They are no better than GW. In fact, I think they are worse because they don't have all the logistic GW can rely on for supporting their games.

The game has been out of print for a decade and more - and I still run campaigns.

Me too. And let's be honest, it's because there was so much content added after the initial game that it became so rich and inspiring. I don't see that for Vanguard. Why ? Because I see what they did so far for Kings of War. And I'm not impressed.

This Kickstarter will definitely be below Mantic's expectations. I'm pretty sure there will be delays, and I would even expect the stuff be on store when delivery won't be there for all the backers, as it becomes more and more common. Let's get real : the time of old generous Kickstarter is now in the past.

I wouldn't hold much hope on the material used for the miniatures either. I'm expecting crappy PVC like the one used for Walking Dead and Dungeon Saga for their "highly detailed" miniatures, sold with the "Skirmish Tax".

Slightly off topic, but as it has come up a few times now... Is there a website for Mordheim content, in the way Yaktribe collected EVERYTHING for Necromunda?

 Zethnar wrote:

This is kind of a counter-intuitive argument.

Nope. Individual sprues cost into the the tens of thousands to develop, monopose or otherwise. Times that by however many are being made and you have a significant upfront cost, which is where Kickstarter comes in. If the initial cost is not covered it's not economically worth it. If extra stuff was thrown in just to try and get people to pledge, then that initial cost goes up, which means they need a high target, and so on and so forth.

And that's just for the models. Add in rules, writers, artists and packaging. All need paying for. Which, again, is why I find it odd that there are still people who think kickstarter is a shopfront.

I'm wondering how the play of Vanguard compares to Star-Struck City that was published by the guys who do the Ironwatch for Kings of War. Because that one was not only professionally made, it's free and is supposed to play like a not-Mordheim and even uses KoW mechanics as a base. I have it downloaded, but haven't had a chance to play it.