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Giants make sense to make bigger, because they get bigger in the direction that matters least for mostly 2D games: straight up. There's a reason every GW dragon for a decade or so was coiled up like a spring.

 Zywus wrote:
Yeah, that's been rumoured to be in the works for a while. Maybe in 3rd ed?

It would be welcome, since it's a bit silly that their official dragons are sold on bases bigger than what they nominally have, and can't really fit on anything less. It'll better facilitate the use of peoples existing modern GW monsters as well, without getting too penalized.

I expect we'll get it in a FAQ or the final 2E CoK first, though I guess it could be pushed as far as beta testing for 3E

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
LOL! Evolutionary adaptation in action!

Still, early humans hunted pygmy elephants to extinction ... so the same may occur with pygmy giants.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Giants will only become more giant so long as there is an advantage to being able to reach the succulent leaves at the tops of trees. If you want your giants to get smaller, you need to trap a breeding population on an island.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there really is an advantage to using smaller giant minis, just use a converted ogre as a Pygmy Giant who swam to the mainland.

If you want to see how giants are going extinct, there's a video game called Shadow of the Colossus that should demonstrate it pretty well.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Too huge. Most dragons don't reach his waist. That's silly.

As long as it fits on a 50x50mm.
Not sure it will, but still what I care about.

How come Mantic does 50x50 for their monster bases? I know WHFB used to do that, but many monster today from different companies (GW, Mierce, Creature Caster etc) are quite big and would probably be pretty unstable even if they fit on a 50x50.

It's definitely one of the stranger quirks of KoW.

I believe it was a rejection of the 'centrepiece model' syndrome that plagued the other game. KoW is supposed to be about an army, not about a huge and hugely powered centrepiece with a couple of minimum point escorts, hence monsters were put on reasonable bases and given useful but not silly (same as magic users) abilities for their points.

Yeah, rules were written for the game and not for specific models
for the various larger models out there you are allowed to use larger bases

but in general for the game, adding another class of "heavy" monsters with 75x75 or 50x100 bases would not be that bad

other games writing the rules/base size with specific miniatures in mind have other problems, are much more restrictive and it looks wired if you are using normal sized models

I would have liked a smaller Giant that is more in line with other large models in the game but than people wanted Mantic to make an impressive model.....

I just base models on bases that are appropriate for the model, and don't stress about the official base size. It's not been a problem, given the "use whatever size fits yer model" in the rulebook. But I also don't play in competitions or tourneys, when it being a disadvantage might become an issue.

Mymearan wrote:How come Mantic does 50x50 for their monster bases? I know WHFB used to do that, but many monster today from different companies (GW, Mierce, Creature Caster etc) are quite big and would probably be pretty unstable even if they fit on a 50x50.

I have seen a picture of the new Archaon perched on a 50x50...
It's already great that Mantic does not try to force the use of Mantic models (like most companies); I don't see why they should also be expected to accommodate the crazy models other companies put out. KoW is the game for the other type of player to the "smash with epic monsters!!!“ that GW is targeting.

kodos wrote:Yeah, rules were written for the game and not for specific models
for the various larger models out there you are allowed to use larger bases.

Mantic did write rules with particular models in mind for the "WHFB port" armies in Uncharted Empires, but they kept it in check and didn't bend or break the game for it though.

 NTRabbit wrote:
I believe it was a rejection of the 'centrepiece model' syndrome that plagued the other game. KoW is supposed to be about an army, not about a huge and hugely powered centrepiece with a couple of minimum point escorts, hence monsters were put on reasonable bases and given useful but not silly (same as magic users) abilities for their points.

My interest both in fantasy and sci-fi is the societies and cultures, not the huge unstoppable monsters or aliens. The monsters might have a role as antagonists or plot points, but they are rarely interesting enough to me to be the focus of the narrative. Similarly, the army aspect of fantasy miniatures is why I play, not the monsters, so I'm happy with Mantic's design decision.

I'm also a fan of infantry blocks, but the current monster size of 50x50 is a bit on the small side, to the degree that even Mantics own models have to do gymnastics to fit on it

I feel like the issue of model size is completely separate from that of army composition. You can easily up the base size for monsters without changing their function in the game.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Mymearan wrote:How come Mantic does 50x50 for their monster bases? I know WHFB used to do that, but many monster today from different companies (GW, Mierce, Creature Caster etc) are quite big and would probably be pretty unstable even if they fit on a 50x50.

I have seen a picture of the new Archaon perched on a 50x50...
It's already great that Mantic does not try to force the use of Mantic models (like most companies); I don't see why they should also be expected to accommodate the crazy models other companies put out. KoW is the game for the other type of player to the "smash with epic monsters!!!“ that GW is targeting.

They should however be expected to accommodate the models they themselves put out.
And a lot of the newer Mantic models come on 75x75mm bases. Like the Abyssal Dwarf and Undead dragons.

So it's great that there's rules on the way to accomodate these bigger models. As a bonus, it's gets easier to use other companies crazy big monsters.

I lost interest in WHFB back in 5th edition when it transitioned fully into HeroHammer. I didn't play another fantasy game of scale until KoW came along. I'm all about the troops over the heroes and monsters.

However, I like large cool models, (including large infantry, large cavalry and so on) so having more "official" options for basing beyond the laughably small 50x50 can only be a good thing.

KoW started as an excuse for Mantic's not-GWHFB models to exist and through a combination of quality, work and some fortuitous circumstances became a much bigger thing. But from the start their models were always designed to be used in WHFB, so DarkBlack's assertions about KoW are either uninformed or somewhat disingenuous.

I also think KoW is a much better game than WHFB5-8 at the very least (and by association, 9th Age), but let's not pretend that it came from a place other than proxy sales and accommodating people's existing Warhammer model collections.

 Mymearan wrote:
I feel like the issue of model size is completely separate from that of army composition. You can easily up the base size for monsters without changing their function in the game.

I mean, you're literally right. You, the modeller, can easily up the base size for monsters without changing their function in the game. You'll simply find that monsters do better on 50x50 than larger sizes, first because it's easier to grab flanks and second because it's harder for multiple units to charge them (and third and fourth and so on). But that doesn't mean you can't upsize to meet your aesthetic needs - I've got greater fire elementals on 75x75 and while I don't regret it, as the models look much better with some room to breath, they are demonstratively better in game on smaller bases, especially with their tiny number of attaks.

Side Comment: Still loving KOW, particularly the more time I spend with 40k and its shortcomings

- Salvage

 Azazelx wrote:
I also think KoW is a much better game than WHFB5-8 at the very least (and by association, 9th Age), but let's not pretend that it came from a place other than proxy sales and accommodating people's existing Warhammer model collections.

It's even more complicated than that, really. Mantic started with a range of a few armies, each with a few sprues. These were pretty openly proxies. While there were KOW rules (this was about 2009-2010), they were a bit of an afterthought.

However, by the time of the big, first KOW kickstarter, I think KOW became an end in itself: the game got bigger to make the kickstarter bigger. That closed in June 2012, and shipped about a year later. These rules were written by Alessio, and were damn solid right away.

The second kickstarter, which included the second edition rules, closed in December 2014 but started to ship in summer of 2015, which is when Age of Sigmar was released. That is when the prospect of it taking over became very real. There is the longstanding rumor that the Mantic staff were tipped off about the shift away from WFB, but even so, a lot of the hard work had been done prior.

By 2015, you saw products like Uncharted Empires, which is overtly a set of rules for WFB armies that didn't yet have mantic analogues, but also included two new armies, one of which is actually released (trident realms).

In many ways, KOW 2nd edition has actually had fewer rules changes since launching in 2015 than 8th edition 40k has since 2017, which shows that Mantic had laid a lot of groundwork for a well balanced and solid game prior to the collapse of WFB. The period in which Mantic was selling models for use in both systems (KOW and WFB) was longer than you might think, at about three years.

 Azazelx wrote:
KoW started as an excuse for Mantic's not-GWHFB models to exist and through a combination of quality, work and some fortuitous circumstances became a much bigger thing. But from the start their models were always designed to be used in WHFB, so DarkBlack's assertions about KoW are either uninformed or somewhat disingenuous.

I also think KoW is a much better game than WHFB5-8 at the very least (and by association, 9th Age), but let's not pretend that it came from a place other than proxy sales and accommodating people's existing Warhammer model collections.

How and why should where Mantic and KoW came from mean that Mantic is somehow obliged to fit models from other companies into their game now? After KoW has grown into it's own thing that can stand on it's own now. Sounds like a non sequitur to me.
Again, the fact that Manic have accommodated some models from GW into their game does not oblige them to do so for every model ever.

I like big models. The game can easily accomodate monsters that are regiment-sized instead of "slighty bigger ogre" sized, while keeping them at around 200 points and not taking anything away from the infantry blocks. It's nice to have a dragon that's not just a winged worm coiled in the same space that two regular horses take up.

 Polonius wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I also think KoW is a much better game than WHFB5-8 at the very least (and by association, 9th Age), but let's not pretend that it came from a place other than proxy sales and accommodating people's existing Warhammer model collections.

It's even more complicated than that, really.

Yes, I've been there since Mhorgoth's Revenge. I just didn't feel like typing it all out for DarkBlack's benefit, so thank you for doing so. Imagine my delight when I saw that the "included rules" in MR was that tiny pamphlet!

 DarkBlack wrote:

How and why should where Mantic and KoW came from mean that Mantic is somehow obliged to fit models from other companies into their game now? After KoW has grown into it's own thing that can stand on it's own now. Sounds like a non sequitur to me.
Again, the fact that Manic have accommodated some models from GW into their game does not oblige them to do so for every model ever.

1) Because they already did so.
2) Consistency
3) Their own models are larger and getting even larger.
4) It's entirely possible for a game to still be troop-focused and still have some amazing looking centrepiece models.
5) Ronnie and others there know and understand the visual and aesthetic impact that a big centrepiece dragon or a giant has for their game.
6) They're also very aware that allowing for other companies' large proxies only benefits their business in terms of consumer goodwill.
7) Which is more important than it has been in many yeras now that we have "New GW" and 40k 8th as revitalised competitors.
8) Nobody said "every model ever" except for you. People have been discussing allowance for larger models and monsters than 50x50 basing.
9) So stop moving the goalposts. That's a key sign of a gak argument.

10) Stop water carrying. KoW is strong enough not to need it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I like big models. The game can easily accomodate monsters that are regiment-sized instead of "slighty bigger ogre" sized, while keeping them at around 200 points and not taking anything away from the infantry blocks. It's nice to have a dragon that's not just a winged worm coiled in the same space that two regular horses take up.

What I think we have here is someone with a "fan" mindset.

This is a proper sized Giant. Other Giants are Dwarf Giants

 Azazelx wrote:


1) Because they already did so.
2) Consistency
3) Their own models are larger and getting even larger.
4) It's entirely possible for a game to still be troop-focused and still have some amazing looking centrepiece models.
5) Ronnie and others there know and understand the visual and aesthetic impact that a big centrepiece dragon or a giant has for their game.
6) They're also very aware that allowing for other companies' large proxies only benefits their business in terms of consumer goodwill.
7) Which is more important than it has been in many yeras now that we have "New GW" and 40k 8th as revitalised competitors.
8) Nobody said "every model ever" except for you. People have been discussing allowance for larger models and monsters than 50x50 basing.
9) So stop moving the goalposts. That's a key sign of a gak argument.

10) Stop water carrying. KoW is strong enough not to need it.

1: That is what I asked you explain. Stating something is not an explanation.
2: That's a start, but Mantic have already left out models that didn't fit, like Chaos chariots.
3: Fair enough, not everthing from all companies will fit on a 75x75 either though.
4: I would argue that those are extremes that have to be balanced or favoured.
5: Mantic has made nice and big models but that are not massive. I also don't think that centre pieces are or should be KoW's focus. Don't think Mantic can beat GW at that game, nor that Mantic should target that market.
6: They already have that goodwill, bending over backwards (so to speak) to get a little more to the extent that the game has to change is further that they need to go
The solid rules are the selling point and should cons first.
7: I don't think the kind of players who are fans of KoW (Johnnys) and the kind of players who the new versions of Warhammer (Timmys) overlap that much. "New GW" is better, but Warhammer still has many of the same old problems; which has lead to many that were hoping for better giving up on GW.
8: That particular bit of flippant exaggeration to punctuate a point was in reference to arguing that Mantic should change thier rules because of what other companies are making.
9: I was clarifying the same point and rebutting yours. Turns out we have to put more effort into expressing our view when arguing than when casually commenting.
10: I am not familiar with that term.

Condidering that this is a news and rumours thread:
The TL: DR is that I don't think Mantic will or should be adding rules for even bigger monsters (than we have already seen)

 DarkBlack wrote:

The TL: DR is that I don't think Mantic will or should be adding rules for even bigger monsters (than we have already seen)

Not rules, just adding 75x75 bases for a new large monster category like dragons

Anyone spot this from the newsletter?

A new greater water elemental, not bad

The water elemental isn't bad.

That giant though.... Mmmmm - I can hardly wait until my wife uses it to decimate my forces. (Her current giant is a Reaper Bones giant, nicknamed ROFLStomp....)

The Auld Grump

Open Day pics from MAntics facebook page

Some more from brueckenkopf

Can anyone ID those buildings? They look nice.

I'm assuming all the little bits littering the fields are painted Terrain Crate items though. Looking forward to getting all that clutter and my Vanguard figures- they're looking good!

The painting and colors on the Basileans really make me feel like I’m looking at a Saturday morning cartoon. The dragon doesn’t help.