Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sirius42 wrote:
Well all my SW stuff has finally arrived but tbh i'm so dispondant about the whole affair that i'm considering moving it all on, the only thing stopping me being that I'd make a massive loss and a faint hope that mcvey might turn it all around and make the game actually worth it, any thoughts on if that's actually going to happen or dya think they'll just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened?

I think if you are willing to follow the FAQ and errata the game will eventually be okay, but that it will also probably be a dead system at that point (no one will be buying it/playing it). We'll see. If McVey can turn out the expansion as a New Game he has a chance of doing okay with it, but there will be a LOT of skeptical folks out there when he tries. The Fan Boys may help tone down their effect but there will be negative noise on any release.

Saw the terrain in-person... looks good, but I can only use so many doors! I wish more of it were walls/barricades, instead.

 RiTides wrote:
Saw the terrain in-person... looks good, but I can only use so many doors! I wish more of it were walls/barricades, instead.

No joke. I bought two boxes with my pledge and now have about 40x the number of doors I'll ever really need for anything.

 CptJake wrote:

 Sirius42 wrote:
Well all my SW stuff has finally arrived but tbh i'm so dispondant about the whole affair that i'm considering moving it all on, the only thing stopping me being that I'd make a massive loss and a faint hope that mcvey might turn it all around and make the game actually worth it, any thoughts on if that's actually going to happen or dya think they'll just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened?

I think if you are willing to follow the FAQ and errata the game will eventually be okay, but that it will also probably be a dead system at that point (no one will be buying it/playing it). We'll see. If McVey can turn out the expansion as a New Game he has a chance of doing okay with it, but there will be a LOT of skeptical folks out there when he tries. The Fan Boys may help tone down their effect but there will be negative noise on any release.

I believe the official word is that the expansion will be useable as a standalone game.

I've been involved in testing/errata, and the amount of changes make it unwieldy with all of the documents, but I feel that the game is pretty sound now- just wish the game had had enough testing then instead of after two pretty serious overhauls...

My problem (and it is mine) is that I hate having to compile sources to have a complete/fixed set of rules. I really like one document, and hate having to make it myself, especially after paying as much for all this as I have.

I know the expansion is supposed to be stand alone. Frankly it would be smart to completely divorce it from this initial effort even if it shares mechanisms. I do think the folks who feel less than satisfied by the initial effort will hurt the follow up.

100% agree. I really hope they'll have the good sense to release a complete updated version of the rules (compared with the rushed partial update they released).

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
100% agree. I really hope they'll have the good sense to release a complete updated version of the rules (compared with the rushed partial update they released).

Unfortunately that is not their stated intent. I am very sure I read they did not intend to update the card or rule PDFs and instead will address issues with the FAQ and errata.

I assume the expansion will get a new rulebook, but now way of knowing if it will be usable for the current set and its scenarios.

Is that expansion still going to happen, though? I mean, I'd very much like to have some of those sculpts shown but given the state the SW IP is in, are they even going to bother anymore?

I'd rather they just make them in resin rather than the stuff they've been using. I don't like resin, but I'll take it over tacky plastic.

Really, though? I'll take a pile of restic just fine, price-wise, thankyouverymuch. Two of those big things are going to cost more than a full boxed game would, if executed in resin. No thanks, really.

And I'll throw in my two cents to say that I'd rather have nothing than have to deal with this PVC stuff ever again. I'm in the process of divesting myself of all my Sedition Wars miniatures, and in point of fact I'm getting rid of all my Privateer Press plastics as well - and I won't ever buy any more of them. Awful, horrible material that totally destroyed my interest in these models. No amount of work can make them look good.

meh. 20min with a *good* knife and they're great. easily worth the savings IMO. does take some getting used to.

There are only three possibilities that can allow a person to be happy with these models:
1. You are a genius with a knife and I need to bow down to your brilliance.
2. You have the same attitude to mold lines that I had a few years ago (I didn't use to remove them).
3. You're not that good at painting and so the horribly carved up models that resulted from your attempts at mold line removal don't really detract from the paint job anyway.

Before I get criticized, I think it's not elitism to say these things. It shouldn't be elitism to admit that there exists a range of painting and modeling skills across the hobby. No-one starts off in this hobby with Golden-Demon quality painting and I'm certainly not a prize-winning painter by any stretch, but after twenty five years I'm finally at a place where mold lines and poor clean up will detract from an otherwise good paint job. I didn't use to be so "discriminating" and (apart from the fact they were more poorly-painted anyway) several of my older models clearly suffer from the sloppy job I did of removing mold lines. I was obviously happy with them at the time though and maybe that's how the satisfied customers of PP and CMON feel about this plastic material.

In my opinion, these models make excellent beginner models as they are cheap and provide quite a nice range of surfaces and textures to practice on, but they simply are not of the quality required by the higher-end of our hobby - and since I keep aspiring to improve my own painting and get better and better, I require miniatures of a higher quality than this PVC can provide. This is why I will never again buy a model made from this material.

Or maybe really everyone is a genius with a knife and I'm just not capable of cleaning these models. I can admit my failings and don't need anyone to sugar-coat their description of my mold line removal (I think it's fair to call it "butchery"). In this case I would urge you to post pictures of your mold line removal skills and I will PAY you to clean up my Converence of Cyriss models, as in the six to ten hours I've spent on them so far I've not been able to get them to a level suitable for painting.

They make crappy beginner models because they don't fit together properly.

Well that was not the rousing "it'll be ok just you Wait" I hoped for, I guess to eBay it is, shame kickstarters don't have a returns policy :p

angryboy2k wrote:
There are only three possibilities that can allow a person to be happy with these models:
1. You are a genius with a knife and I need to bow down to your brilliance.
2. You have the same attitude to mold lines that I had a few years ago (I didn't use to remove them).
3. You're not that good at painting and so the horribly carved up models that resulted from your attempts at mold line removal don't really detract from the paint job anyway.

Before I get criticized, I think it's not elitism to say these things. It shouldn't be elitism to admit that there exists a range of painting and modeling skills across the hobby. No-one starts off in this hobby with Golden-Demon quality painting and I'm certainly not a prize-winning painter by any stretch, but after twenty five years I'm finally at a place where mold lines and poor clean up will detract from an otherwise good paint job. I didn't use to be so "discriminating" and (apart from the fact they were more poorly-painted anyway) several of my older models clearly suffer from the sloppy job I did of removing mold lines. I was obviously happy with them at the time though and maybe that's how the satisfied customers of PP and CMON feel about this plastic material.

In my opinion, these models make excellent beginner models as they are cheap and provide quite a nice range of surfaces and textures to practice on, but they simply are not of the quality required by the higher-end of our hobby - and since I keep aspiring to improve my own painting and get better and better, I require miniatures of a higher quality than this PVC can provide. This is why I will never again buy a model made from this material.

Or maybe really everyone is a genius with a knife and I'm just not capable of cleaning these models. I can admit my failings and don't need anyone to sugar-coat their description of my mold line removal (I think it's fair to call it "butchery"). In this case I would urge you to post pictures of your mold line removal skills and I will PAY you to clean up my Converence of Cyriss models, as in the six to ten hours I've spent on them so far I've not been able to get them to a level suitable for painting.

First of all, use a **new** replaceable knife blade. It needs to be very, very sharp. then, just start slicing (not scraping!). You won't get it all the first pass round because you're just taking mold lines off of large surfaces, so go back to the details. Two to four passes works best for me. Also remember that restic holds great detail on the sides (as in, planes orthogonal to the tool) compared to polystyrene - if you want to keep it all though, you'll be slicing yourself silly. Don't worry cutting off a little detail you don't care about too much rather than spending hours cleaning up corners you'll be skipping over in painting anyway. Alternatively, if you're going to spend a lot of time painting it, spend a lot of time cleaning well. Generally, I find it doesn't distract much - you will have to plan ahead in your cleaning, knowing in advance how well you're going to paint (and however great a painter, everyone has plenty of models he's not going to paint to more than good tabletop level, whatever that means to you ). You're right that if you go in without thinking ahead, you'll end up with sloppy, distracting work.
I find that generally goes for any technique/aspect in the entire bloody hobby, however. Could be just me, though

Fifteen years or so in, I have no problem at all painting to a pretty good standard consistently, or actually painting something I'd like looking at from up close if I were patient enough. There's room for both, though. I love my hyper-detailed high-end (and fething expensive) Mierce stuff - but I find that with a little love, PVC models can go a long way as well. Not quite there, but close. In any case, once you learn to work with it, and work with it well, it can very well provide models superior to anything in polystyrene. No, it's not boutique resin stuff. Pricetag might have told you that (and that goes for the PP stuff as well; it's on the expensive side for PVC but not anywhere near great resin pricing...).

I will however say that when you state "Or maybe really everyone is a genius with a knife and I'm just not capable of cleaning these models. I can admit my failings and don't need anyone to sugar-coat their description of my mold line removal (I think it's fair to call it "butchery")." I'm guessing you've really just not caught on to the 'trick' required for this particular job quite yet. God knows it took me a while
Sit down, with a fresh (and I mean **fresh**) knife blade. This would be a good start, for example (though I'm not too sure about titanium knives, I prefer carbon steel though annoyingly, try getting anything but *&%^&fething stainless in a hobby knife blade and you're SOL...) just to make sure we're talking about the same kind of knife
start slicing. Don't take of the entire line systematically in one go, get the 'big' bits first - I'm sure cutting that away isn't too hard if you have a bit of experience with a knife of any kind
Then, with the tip (or something near it ) start removing material from crevices. just, anything you notice, no pattern whatsoever - it feels less arduous that way keep at it long enough and you'll have a clean model before you know it.
Just don't scrape (can work, but not very well), take it easy, and remember that loss of a little bit of detail you didn't care much for anyway is better than a visible mold line (I want to stress this is an exception, though. especially the 'inner' bit of a leg can often be sufficiently problematic that you just do stuff like that - it saves time ). I can't for the life of me imagine you can't clean a few of those warjacks (vectors, it was?) up to the point where no moldlines whatsoever are visible anymore.
Infantry is where it gets annoying (though the samaritans were actually quite easy IIRC) simply because of fine bitz and the amount of work cleaning a bunch of infantrymen takes.

It is definitely possible, though; plenty of folks manage it just fine. About not buying anything in PVC anymore - that's going to be very, very annoying a few years from now, and I think you'll want to rethink that. You'll pretty much have to at some point, given how popular the material is getting, so better get used to it. Believe me, I've uttered some truly vile things when getting to grips with the stuff but you get to the point where it's not hard at all, anymore.

That method eats up a lot of time and money/blades. I find that restic minis usually aren't worth that kind of effort for me, which is why the medium is frustrating.

Lately, I've just been working on restic minis when I've had to change blades. I'll get big stuff with the blade, small stuff or rounded edges with a plastic sanding stick, and then hope that I can cover up the fuzziness or mold line survivors with liquid green stuff. (Haven't done that last bit yet, so I might be stuck with "good enough".)

Bolognesus is certainly right about using a new blade and cutting away the mold lines.

Another way is to get some good fine diamond coated files. Those take off the mold lines on PVC figures very well from what I've found.

Use a small amount of acetone to knock down the fuzziness and they look good as new.

Just another method.

~Eric

Bob, I managed to get all of both waves done on two blades, and probably about twice as much time as regular mold lines. Not horrible.

Anybody got their DVD with wave 2 shipment?

I got mine. Haven't unwrapped the shrink wrap from it yet.

@Bob
I think you ought to consider switching brand of blades, or something. I got through two Biohazard wave 1 sets on three or four blades, and it could have been done with less, looking back at it now.

You're saying I should spend more than $4 per pack, then?

I don't know... I don't trust a blade that doesn't lose the last 2mm of point in the first day.

Pack of how many? And likely, yeah. Getting what you pay for etc.

Bolognesus, you make a good argument and offer some excellent advice but I'm honestly done with the material. I don't enjoy removing mold lines at the best of times, so you can imagine how I feel about a material that wastes as much of my limited time as this does. That's not even accounting for the fact that (adding insult to injury) I'm not only slow, I suck at it too (though I defy anyone to do a nice job on the Convergene of Cyriss models; the damage you mentioned as an inevitable result of cleaning shows up a mile away on these figures, necessitating resculpting and wasting even more time).

I've actually tried very sharp knives and the diamond-coated files and acetone suggested by another poster above. I'm not doing well with them and maybe I've not got the knack, but I can't be bothered learning. It isn't worth my time for models as cheap as Sedition Wars, and as for PP's plastics... Well I just feel that they've rebalanced the time = money equation such that my precious time wasted cleaning up this garbage = their massive profit increase from moving to this cheap material. It's not really something I think they should be rewarded for and so I'm putting my money where my mouth is and not buying products in PVC anymore - no matter how futile or insignificant such action might be.

As for the future being this material, I'm afraid that just means I won't be buying. I've got many years' worth of metal and styrene models stockpiled that will likely engage me for the rest of my life, and I'm having so much fun playing Netrunner (with smaller time and financial investment) that I question why I'd ever "need" to torture myself in the future by buying more of this stuff.

I agree that the PP models can be frustrating, too... I didn't really care too much about mold lines when I was building some so I was OK with them, but I prefer hard plastic so much more. I'm willing to pay a bit more to not have to deal with this kind of material... there have been such a glut of models made in it recently, and I don't really need MORE models- I need good ones!

That said, I can definitely see a place for it for things such as the base box game figures (here, and especially for something like Zombicide), the scenery, etc. But the homage figures / characters would have been a lot better off in traditional resin, even with the price difference, imo.

 RiTides wrote:
I agree that the PP models can be frustrating, too... I didn't really care too much about mold lines when I was building some so I was OK with them, but I prefer hard plastic so much more. I'm willing to pay a bit more to not have to deal with this kind of material... there have been such a glut of models made in it recently, and I don't really need MORE models- I need good ones!

That said, I can definitely see a place for it for things such as the base box game figures (here, and especially for something like Zombicide), the scenery, etc. But the homage figures / characters would have been a lot better off in traditional resin, even with the price difference, imo.

There is no argument, the special characters and all extra figures we paid for SHOULD have been in resin.

angryboy2k wrote:
Bolognesus, you make a good argument and offer some excellent advice but I'm honestly done with the material. I don't enjoy removing mold lines at the best of times, so you can imagine how I feel about a material that wastes as much of my limited time as this does. That's not even accounting for the fact that (adding insult to injury) I'm not only slow, I suck at it too (though I defy anyone to do a nice job on the Convergene of Cyriss models; the damage you mentioned as an inevitable result of cleaning shows up a mile away on these figures, necessitating resculpting and wasting even more time).

I've actually tried very sharp knives and the diamond-coated files and acetone suggested by another poster above. I'm not doing well with them and maybe I've not got the knack, but I can't be bothered learning. It isn't worth my time for models as cheap as Sedition Wars, and as for PP's plastics... Well I just feel that they've rebalanced the time = money equation such that my precious time wasted cleaning up this garbage = their massive profit increase from moving to this cheap material. It's not really something I think they should be rewarded for and so I'm putting my money where my mouth is and not buying products in PVC anymore - no matter how futile or insignificant such action might be.

As for the future being this material, I'm afraid that just means I won't be buying. I've got many years' worth of metal and styrene models stockpiled that will likely engage me for the rest of my life, and I'm having so much fun playing Netrunner (with smaller time and financial investment) that I question why I'd ever "need" to torture myself in the future by buying more of this stuff.

Hmm. I think that'll come back to bite you, but to each his own. Hobbies are supposed to be relaxing, after all
Would you mind listing what Convergence models are particularly nasty in your opinion? Something as nasty as possible (in your view) while still cheap enough for me to get on a whim would be good - I wanna see this up close, TBH.

So, did anybody got their DVD's with this final shipment? or they quietly forgot them?

If the first is the case I should bother them to send them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd rather they just make them in resin rather than the stuff they've been using. I don't like resin, but I'll take it over tacky plastic.

The material made me miss metal.

And I use to complain about metal.

Never again my precious metal, I will never complain about you again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I agree that the PP models can be frustrating, too... I didn't really care too much about mold lines when I was building some so I was OK with them, but I prefer hard plastic so much more. I'm willing to pay a bit more to not have to deal with this kind of material... there have been such a glut of models made in it recently, and I don't really need MORE models- I need good ones!

That said, I can definitely see a place for it for things such as the base box game figures (here, and especially for something like Zombicide), the scenery, etc. But the homage figures / characters would have been a lot better off in traditional resin, even with the price difference, imo.

There is no argument, the special characters and all extra figures we paid for SHOULD have been in resin.

There is no argument.

everything in this box should have never been made in the material it was made in.

The loss of crisp detail (I own ever Studio McVey resin miniature both Sedition Wars and LE line), the quality loss is pretty significant.

For the price you paid and the amount you got I will say it is a pretty damn good deal, but the effort it takes to clean them up is painful.