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 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

And this is key. Foot guard could be very choppy in 5th ed, but once 6th ed rolled around and killed power blobs, well... there wasn't anything else that they could do to be choppy as basically the entire rest of the codex is more or less gunline.

Foot orks could be very choppy in 5th ed, and now that 6th ed killed the slugga horde, well... they have MANZ IN CANZ, and bike mobz and deffkoptaz, and trukk spam.

If you want a choppy horde in 6th, until new codices come out, you're screwed. If what's important is choppin', though, orks can still do it, just not in the same way as before.

Unlike guard, every single sentence of fluff in our codex is about charging into combat, or shooting while charging into combat, or charging into combat while shooting. Everything in the ork codex is about close combat. We can't do close combat anymore. Outside of the three flavors of nobz, none of our units should actually assault anything. The equivalent would be telling guard player to play a close combat army now.
And from the games three games I have witnessed, trukk spam is all but dead - too many points of failure. The requirement of assaulting in pairs means that any failed charge instantly means you lose a unit, and have another unit standing around waiting to be shot. This usually results in a two for one trade, and you tend to get one or two of those in every game.

 y0disisray wrote:
I think Orks did in fact get help from 6th edition just not in the traditional way that Ork players are used to playing. Massed shooting is where its at right now as Overwatch is amazing with Orks due to their gross number of shots. It's rare for me to assault anything because I usually want to shoot them and then Overwatch them while maybe taking a few casualties during their shooting phase. If they do decide to assault me between Overwatch and a good base number of attacks I should be able to win a lot of combats. The only static shooting I really use in my army are lootas becasue everything else like boyz/warbikers/dakkajets are always on the move. I've been having a great time with the new changes but I guess it's really not for everyone.

This. I have a higher winning quote than ever before - but I'm not having as much fun as before.

 Ailaros wrote:
But what do you do about the new helldrake? Dakkaguns don't work against it because of AV12, and klaws don't work against it because you can't assault fliers. Even lootas are going to struggle here, as it's still hitting on 6's, and it's still AV12. Meanwhile, they will destroy anything orky (including lootas), and seem basically designed to stop ork bike lists in their tracks, what with their S6 Ap3 ignores cover positioning flamer template of doom.

I mean, AV12 fliers are the most powerful thing in the game at the moment generally speaking, and we just got another one thrown at us. Seems like it would be tough, especially for a bike list.

Why wouldn't the dakkajet work against it? I have blown quite a number of storm ravens and vendettas out of the sky by loss of hull points. Obviously, you should get fighta ace for it, but on your Waagh!, you aren't that unlikely to simply blow one out of the sky.

Option two: Bring your own helldrake, and chaos bikes


Oh, and as for assembling the boyz: If you have boyz boxes, build shoota boyz. If you want slugga boyz, buy AOBR orks off ebay for a fraction of the costs you'd pay for boyz boxes.

Orrr, you could buy aobr boys period and if you wantthem to be shoota boys you can use the advice earlier in this thread(IG grenade launchers)

From what I gather, he already has boyz boxes and is asking about how to build them.

Rejn wrote:
Orrr, you could buy aobr boys period and if you wantthem to be shoota boys you can use the advice earlier in this thread(IG grenade launchers)

Adding in the cost of the grenade launchers and shipping, might safe you a little bit, depending on how cheap you get them, but you still have to figure in time to convert. Granted its not hard, lob off the slugga just infront of the grip, chop the launcher just behind the drum, and glue together. Still though, if youve got the box of boyz already.



As for the Helldrake, again Im with Jidmah. DAKKAjets are incredible against ANYTHING they can hurt, no matter how slim the chance. In my last game, mine came in, smoked 2 speeders in a squadron, was shot at, so I jinked, then its next turn, I called a WAAAGH! and still mowed down an entire unit of scouts rolling all snapfires. So yea, if you can even glance something, the DAKKAjet will more than likely turn it into a crater

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

I'm there with the rest of you guys. I'm more or less playing as little as possible right now. I'm waiting till our new codex comes out. Hoping it brings some life back to the Orks.

It will, they almost always do. But I seem to be playing even more now. MANY changes to 6th were some ideas my oldest brother and I had for awhile anyways. As any edition, theres a few things we think are a bit hokey and toss out, but over all we seem to be really enjoying 6th.

I'm not saying 6th isn't a fun game. I think it's a great change from 5th. What I think the sentiment people are trying to convey is, ORKS aren't feeling as good in 6th.
Since I only play Orks, and like to CC, it's just not working for me.

No I get what you Goff players are on about. The thing is though, I stopped focusing on CC EARLY in 5th, and focused on shooting. So since thats how Ive pretty much always played, my army just got tougher. BUT Im willing to bet that when they do redo the codex, that CC Orks will have a nice surprise in there

Do you think we will get a 6th edition codex anytime soon? I don't think so really, and I hope it isn't written by Cruddace.

improvement on tank bustas? bike toughness now used as a whole? what in the 6th ed rule book made these changes?

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

thanks for clearing that up



Anyways I'm currently building an infantry suited ork clan(my first army as well), the main fire power will come from lootas and kannons in the back while a horde of ork sluggas led by a warboss, advance up to the enemy. I choose sluggas because i think they're cooler and more fun but everyone here is saying its suicide to do so. Will i really be that fethed if i go with sluggas?

I've played sluggas since I started Orks othough I stick them in trukks). The majority of my games have been against Tau, and it's more of a challenge to win, but, IMO, closer games are much more fun!

If you're up against fairly laid back people at your club, should be fine. They can still pack a punch in close combat. But if you're in a more "competitive" club, I will not lie, you're gonna be in for a rough time. 6th really kicked assault in the groin, especially for horde assault armies like power blob guard and horde orks.

Orks biggest strength now is ironically enough shooting, with assault being something you save for finishing off weakened units, or taking out units that have no business being in assault to begin with. We only have a few units that can still reliably get into assault and krump roight proppa, but even they risk being screwed over by bad charge rolls or overwatch.

Unless you're taking insane amount of boyz, you'll have a tough time getting enough into combat for it to matter. However, Boyz are now one of the most awesome tarpits you can imagine. I've had 20 shoota boyz bog down CC monsters for entire games, even without the nob getting to swing once. I really wish this wasn't true though, as i'd love to be assaulting instead...

Well, and there's something else that's important not to overlook here - sluggas have guns too. It's why they're CALLED slugga boyz.

Yeah, they're only half as good at shooting, per point, as shootas, but it's not like slugga boyz can ONLY be used in close combat. That might be their primary purpose, but you can still get a fair number of shots out of them.

Think of it sort of like how space marines have bolt pistols and ork bikes have choppaz, and stormtroopers have a close combat weapon. Don't discount free versatility straight out of hand.

I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

360 is scarier

double FOC really lets you get your Green on!

yeah but capping that under 2500 sucks... You can do 300 with a couple KFF Mechs though

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

The problem is that a nob swinging at a walking is by no means a reliable killing blow. From experience you're going to spend at least two combat phases whaling on the damn thing, and the whole time it is battering you. So your squad is depleted, and has spent at least one or two game turns being stuck in combat.

The real nightmare for me is Wraithlords. The bastard thing is a (ch), so it can challenge the Nob, kill him outright, and then reduce the boyz to ribbons. Trygon Primes are the same, I do believe. In two recent games I was up against Eldar/DEldar mixes, and each time the Wraithlords were a total heartache, just wandering around killing entire squads at a time.

I run a trukk list, which I just switched to as 6th was about to hit. Before I ran a hybrid list, with foot boyz and a nob squad in a battlewagon, which did ok for me, but I got very tired of moving all of those models around. So I went for trukk spam, using:

KFF Mek
Megaboss

3x Meganobz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
17x Shoota Boyz in Battlewagon (with KFF & Warboss accompanying)
10 Gretchin

Dakkajet

9 Lootas

The list is loads of fun, dead fast, and opponents have a heart attack when they see how close you get on turn 1. The KFF has been utterly failing me so far, which is very sadface, but the Meganobz (a recent acquisition) have been terrifying everyone that sees them. But out of 8 or so games, I think that I've won 2; both times my opponents had very bad luck or terrible deployment choices. I think that a lot of my problem is learning how to use the trukk list, but I've also found that the boyz are simply massively underwhelming in assault now, especially in twelves; still cannot kill power armour, still die in droves, still run very easily. It is also still funny, but I'd maybe prefer to win and laugh rather than have to lose and laugh.

Rejn wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying

Because of the FOC? 180x6 =1080 points

And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

You cannot run away from a walker if you are fearless. And if you run away, the walker will sweep your I2 boyz more often than not. That's how you tarpit them. A nob (if you brought one, which most people don't do anymore), and it's still alive, it still has a hard time cracking walker with AV13 and/or the daemon special rule. Unless you bring a warboss, a walker will win the war of attrition more often than not.

Truth is, I moved away from horde builds within a year of starting this game. I quickly realized that neither I nor my opponent had the energy for the amount of time each round took when moving 120 boyz.
Since then I've tried to make do with slightly less models on the board. I never take over 80 boyz now, and tend to lean towards 60 plus more elite units and mixed arms.
Even if CC horde were to come back in the new codex as a tourney competitive build or hell, even an OP build, I still wouldn't run 120 boyz. It's just not fun for me.

I have never cared for horde armies. When I started orks about 2 months before 6th came out, I geared up and played a loota/small boy count/biker nob list and ran stormboys/jet/copters etc

Once 6th rumors came out I invested in metal mega nobz and started playing around with them using the old S&P rule.. Assault back in 5th vs. vehicles was terrible... It's so easy now...


Back in 5th we used to have to legit WORRY about av14 moving fast and hitting it on 6's... oh great my S10 warboss swings 5 times... No hits... ... Now with Auto hit/3+ when moving it makes assault that much better...


The loss of fearless wounds makes assaulting with the boys alot less risky.



I don't know, in general I feel like assault took a hit to a small degree but also had boons.... Heck I have started playing in a couple local tourneys and have actually been winning them. Makes me feel like the orkz is made fa winnin'

My list has quite a bit of dakka but I don't feel like the shooting phase is pushing my game along. It may have a greater impact than it did before, but I still feel like if you build your list to assault you can still do that, quite adequately.

 Jidmah wrote:

Rejn wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying

Because of the FOC? 180x6 =1080 points

And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

You cannot run away from a walker if you are fearless. And if you run away, the walker will sweep your I2 boyz more often than not. That's how you tarpit them. A nob (if you brought one, which most people don't do anymore), and it's still alive, it still has a hard time cracking walker with AV13 and/or the daemon special rule. Unless you bring a warboss, a walker will win the war of attrition more often than not.

thats assuming its <2000pts. instead of getting into an arguement im used to playing 2k exclusively

i didnt realize you couldnt run from combat while fearless due to that new rule that lets you volutarily leave combat

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

You also have to keep in mind that those 180 boyz are only half of your army. You can still pile in Lootas, Dakka Jets, Nobz, Burnas, or whatever else your Orky heart desires. I'm basing this off of 2000 - 2500 Points. For how cheap 180 Boyz really is, I don't see why you wouldn't want to field them... aside from moving that many models.

I'm just saying its been working for me and shouldn't be rolled out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.. I dont care how "mediocre" an Ork Boy is... when your charging and rolling over 80-100 dice, you can suck pretty damn bad and still come out on top.

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

You also have to keep in mind that those 180 boyz are only half of your army. You can still pile in Lootas, Dakka Jets, Nobz, Burnas, or whatever else your Orky heart desires. I'm basing this off of 2000 - 2500 Points. For how cheap 180 Boyz really is, I don't see why you wouldn't want to field them... aside from moving that many models.

I'm just saying its been working for me and shouldn't be rolled out.

I have a hard time finishing 2k games with 40 boys in under 2 hours at tournaments... I have no idea how you would do it with 180....

The FARTHEST a 2 hour timed tourney game has ever gone for me was completing 4 turns... Typically they last 3 full turns or 2 if your opponent has lots to move/do as well... Very frustrating : /

Granted I have only played about 6 2k tourney games so... Exp is rather limited! ... just thinkin though... I only have about 88 models in my 2k ork army (which I have gotten tons of flack on dakka for)... (40 boys 11 gretchin, 6 manz, 20 lootas, 6 bikes, 2 bosses, 2 wagons, jet).... Can't fathom how some of you move so many boyz per turn.. I can understand in a friendly untimed game... but under any time pressure etc... Props.. .

Jidmah wrote:

Bad_Sheep37 wrote:I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win.

Sad but true, at least in our current rules edition.

The problem with horde armies has always been force concentration, which has now turned into a near fatal flaw in a world of better shooting, worse cover, and the obligation to take casualties from the front of the squad. If your opponent can kill more inches of boyz per turn than the boyz are able to move forward, the end result isn't going to be anything more than a deployment zone full of corpses.

As mentioned, at large point games, this might be close to only half your points, but its also (assuming 1" displacement - rather close for comfort for me personally), 180 boyz takes up 900 square inches of space. There are only 864 square inches in your average deployment zone. This means that you literally fill your deployment zone with nothing but boyz, and they have to be closer than 1" to each other. Throw anything else on the board, and your boyz are going to have to be packed in close enough to kiss. And then your opponent brings a single manticore...

Hordes have always suffered from problems with diminishing return. After a certain point, more models you add will be models which are farther away from their intended target (which is really bad), and the higher your casualties due to template weapons (likewise). This means that there is a cap in 40k to how strong horde armies can be that's not determined by the cap placed on points. Unsurprisingly, this makes horde players better at lower point games and worse at higher point games.

But to get back to the point, this cap was reduced by changes in 6th ed. Whatever anyone else thinks about their pet army getting nerfed (see GK players for this silly attitude), the plain fact is that horde armies got nerfed harder.

However, I don't share Jidmah's pessimistic attitude that slugga boyz, choppy orks, or even orks in general can't be made to work, and work in their traditional bombastic way. Just because one particular playstyle was ruined doesn't mean that the rest of the codex was. 10 sluggas in a trukk with RPJ is still only 100 points, which is ludicrously cheap. Combine that in a list with a few more of those, and a few buggy or bike squads and as many battlewagons as you can take (one with MANZ), and you've got an army that is going to be capable of a massed turn 2 assault after having softened everything up with rokkits and big shootaz first.

Assault may have gotten generally worse, but if there's someone who can still make assault work, it's orks.

 earlofburger wrote:

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

thanks for clearing that up



Anyways I'm currently building an infantry suited ork clan(my first army as well), the main fire power will come from lootas and kannons in the back while a horde of ork sluggas led by a warboss, advance up to the enemy. I choose sluggas because i think they're cooler and more fun but everyone here is saying its suicide to do so. Will i really be that fethed if i go with sluggas?

They way I do it, I have mainly shoota boyz, but one big mob of slugga boyz with the warboss.
People are still more scared of slugga boyz, so I use this big mob which I march right through the middle as the main focus... enemy will have its eyes on avoiding contact with it, rest of army swarms around.

So I'd say at least one mob of slugga boyz is always good, if only bc they force you to think more offencivly, I have the idea you sometimes miss oppertunities with the shoota 'mindset'.

So I'd say mix em.

The 100pt slugga trukk is an interesting Idea, I had never thought of that. If you had a few empty troop slots (say, if you ran a nob heavy list or warbiker list etc.) they could make for a nifty, dirt cheap, and very fast scoring unit. They wouldn't be a very big target, and so would be able to move up fairly easily as long as your opponent has better things to shoot at. Although I doubt it'd be super amazing, I may try that for a couple of fun games and see how it does.