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Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

And MANz ignore power weapons - Depends on the power weapon. They ignore power swords because those are AP3 now. They wont however, ignore a PF or a power axe, though I MIGHT be wrong on the axe, Ive yet to face a power axe so its stats are not fresh in my head

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

I don't but i asked this very question this week on "make da call" in the forums.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481774.page

Manz have a 2+ armor save and most power weps are AP3

@ mr moustaffa...

GFY

yes I have a rulebook and yes I've read it, due to complications I do not have it nor have I had it with me for about 2 months

I would appreciate fewer synde comments and more helpful ones, thank you

edited for manners and gentlemanly conduct

Just throwing this out there, but I dont think he was being snide at all. And in all honesty, those answers are as clear cut as asking "How do I wound with a shoota?"

Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

I don't but i asked this very question this week on "make da call" in the forums.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481774.page

Pm sent to reijn. long story short, wasn't meant to be snide, literally asking if he had it. i know lots of people dont have said rulebook yet, so didnt know if I needed to go real in depth or just throw out a page number and call it a day. No disrespect was intended.

As for the monstrous creature thing, I'll look through it again, but i believe it's mentioned in the challenge or monstrous creature entry that any monstrous creature may be challenged. Need to find the specific page so i can cite this though. I know daemon princes and a lot of the nid ones can be challenged at least.

As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'm loving our new rules. My Orks just seem more and more competitive the more I play them. Flash gits can ignore cover and armor (with a nice low roll) lootas come down to a quetion of how many, and shootas in a battlewagon are downright killy. Thats not to say anything about nob bikers (so much death right there its disgusting, and the survivability is amazing). mega nobs not having to roll every time they move is great. (not to mention immune to most PW except those that go on their I) I can't see why anyone wouldn't love orks right now unless your stuck on Kans or other stuff.

Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

you may, but it is considered in poor taste especially if you have the newer versions.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I wouldnt say canz are bad, just that I usually find something else that works the angle better, cheaper and faster. I feel that if I wanted rokkits in 6th that badly I can use tau allies and get broadsides in more effectively, in 5th twin linked rokkits from deffcoptas were better (probably still so in 6th, just have a hard time getting them in my list now). big shootas are ok, warbikes (not really cheaper mind you) do it better with a 4+ cover save. Lootas do it with added anti-air support (volume of fire really hurts flyers more than accurate fire in my experience)

as for buggies, I dont feel they have any survivability at all. a single tau fire warrior team can destroy a squad a turn (or severely neuter it) being open topped an ap 2 weapon explodes one on a 4+ pen. Trukks have been a little more survivable for me (I typically run it as a MANZ missile or nobs depending on points) as people want to shoot bolters or other weapons more likely to glance it and save their heavy firepower for the battlewagons.

The list has a lot of merit to it as well. I don't own a lot of canz, (maybe someday) But they are cute. I just wish they weren't so slow and had such a crappy WS.

 Ailaros wrote:
... If anything, having a 1850 point list wherin all of the vehicles are wrecked means that you're looking at a 1500 point ork army that's now very upset that you wrecked their rides...

About 25% of those 1500 points would have been removed as casualties due to kaboom!.

 KingCracker wrote:
Slugga horde - I say go for it. Although I personally love shoota boyz, if you want CC hoppy boyz then do it. People are mainly freaking about them sucking now because of overwatch. And as long as you dont charge a unit full of TL weapons or things like devourer gants, you dont really have to worry about overwatch. Youll lose around 3 boyz if its a SM unit. Big deal.

Ass load of cheap vehicles - Hey! Now thats a fun idea right there. And my trukks have been collecting dust for a long ass time now.....hmmmmmmm

Overwatch isn't the issue. Not being able to multi-assault anymore is. In five turns slugga boyz can kill three units at best, if your enemy is a little lucky on power-armor saves or otherwise, you suddenly only manage to kill two or even just one unit with your huge troops unit. In 5th the huge blob of sluggas would multi-assault two or three marine units at once, and thanks to hidden pk, +1A and +1 Strength kill enough to win the ensuing combat. Doing that in 6th is suicide.

Rejn wrote:
25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Most HQ MCs are also characters, those can be challenged. Canifexes, DE talos engines or smiliar can't.

As the nob is doing the fighting, you'd have 29 boyz left to do the cheering, so 5 rerolls.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

The problem is, that outside of the grotzooka, kanz don't do anything great. They are slow, they can't defeat anyone in close combat, they have only two HP each, and even at BS3, three rokkits aren't that awesome for over 100 points. Not to mention that big gunz are more durable at less points and more or less the same firepower, and by having T7/3+ attract the same type of firepower as AV10 vehicles would. With the appearance of dakkajets, grotzookas don't have the monoply on S6 shots anymore, so people rather use dakkajets for the whatever grotzookas did before.
In addition, they are anti-synergetic with all those other vehicles. Trukks and buggies are very fast, and hit the opponents lines in turn two, no matter the depolyment. Kanz, however, are becoming a threat no earlier than turn three, if your opponent is moving back, as late as turn four. Thus, your opponent can simply ignore them and shoot your trukks and buggies, and handle them later. Because of this, the don't add to armor saturation at all, and you could have fielded pretty much anything else instead.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

There is no official rule saying that you can't run your old models from GW that i know of, but maybe the UK events have different rulings?

Hell, you can still technically field the cardboard cutout deff-dread if you have it, as it's an official GW model. Wouldn't want to try arguing it with the TO though.

People will not appreciate it (unless they are old Ork players with a taste for nostalgia like me ), but it's legal.

Phydox wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

As always, it really depends on the tourny organizer. I honestly, can see an argument for both ways. I wouldnt tell someone they cant play with said unit because its old (hell some people collect the old minis) but at the same time, they are shockingly smaller then modern versions. Im sure though, you wont catch flak from most places, and the old rhino isnt nearly as small to the current as the trukk is/was. That thing is definitely in buggy territory.

 KingCracker wrote:

Phydox wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

As always, it really depends on the tourny organizer. I honestly, can see an argument for both ways. I wouldnt tell someone they cant play with said unit because its old (hell some people collect the old minis) but at the same time, they are shockingly smaller then modern versions. Im sure though, you wont catch flak from most places, and the old rhino isnt nearly as small to the current as the trukk is/was. That thing is definitely in buggy territory.

Ive been playing since about 1998 and have 7 trukks. This is why Im not in a hurry to start replacing them, you need at least three in a list, and for the $$ Im better off just buying Battlewagons. One trukk has got a lot of junk glued on it from my GorkaMorka days. They didnt even make most of the ork vehicle models when I started orks You had to model your own stuff. Hey maybe I can just glue old rhinos to the trukks then they'd be the right size.

Or just get a bunch of dinged up rhinos on Ebay, and paint them as Blood-axe trukks

[user]

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I used to run kan wall. The way they used to be is av10 with 4+ cover (never run them w/o kff) so all the anti vehicle shots would get absorbed by the kff and in CC unless there was a power weapon they would remain tied up untill they whittled down thier opponents. Kan WS has always sucked but it wasn't much of an issue cause not that much else could kill them in CC.

The problem now aside from everything previously mentioned is that everything in the empirium(spellcheck?) comes with grenades and kans blow up quick when grenades are being tossed around like stones in the middle-east!

I lost 2 squads of kans in one turn to, squads of IG infantry!!! Assaulting my kans!!! There is something way wrong with that picture.

Rejn wrote:
[user]

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I used to run kan wall. The way they used to be is av10 with 4+ cover (never run them w/o kff) so all the anti vehicle shots would get absorbed by the kff and in CC unless there was a power weapon they would remain tied up untill they whittled down thier opponents. Kan WS has always sucked but it wasn't much of an issue cause not that much else could kill them in CC.

The problem now aside from everything previously mentioned is that everything in the empirium(spellcheck?) comes with grenades and kans blow up quick when grenades are being tossed around like stones in the middle-east!

I lost 2 squads of kans in one turn to, squads of IG infantry!!! Assaulting my kans!!! There is something way wrong with that picture.

Sorry to say, but since they have better WS and they outnumber you it actually makes alot of sense to imagine soliders lob a grenade or the like into the visor especially since the killa kanz cower in fear from a screaming guardsmen line rushing at them.

They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

On the trukk thing, that's just what I had heard. I remembered hearing people complaining on here about it occassionally, but it may have been for a private tourney.

Well, but think about them differently now. Kanz may not be close combat monsters, but they're still shooting platforms. I mean, for only 40 points, you get a big shoota, and the grotzooka seems a steal for only 50 points. Instead of making them choppy, make them shooty.

I mean, it's possible to make a super dakka list this way.

Big Mek, with FKK, combi-skorcha
Big Mek, with FKK, combi-skorcha

10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ

Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Shoota buggy
Shoota buggy
Shoota buggy

Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Shoota Kan
Shoota Kan
Shoota Kan

For only 1500 points. Spelled out in its entirety, you can see more of the awesome splendor I was talking about.

Plus, we're talking about 18 big shootas (some of which twin-linked or BS3), and 6 TL rokkits, and 6 grotzookas and 56 shootas. That's not a small number of guns. Then we add the fact that it's coming on 24 vehicles, some of which get a 5+ cover save wherever they are, and can be unloading lots of stuff into close combat turn 2, and you've got something that seems legitimately scary to me.

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

Quick history lesson:

In 4th you got to chose AND got plus 1 attack for PK and Slugga.

In 5th you had no choice, had to use the PK, didn't get an extra attack so migh as well arm those Nobz with Rokkits and Kombi weapons.

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

 KingCracker wrote:
Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

I thought the inhabitants of a vehicle only got insta gibbed if they vehicle was surrounded and then wrecked, as they couldn't go into base contact with vehicle then move to disembark?

I thought if you exploded a trukk while it was surrounded the only survivors would be those who lived thru explosion and could be placed in crater 1" away from enemy models? (all of those not being able to be placed being counted as casualties?)

skyfi wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

I thought the inhabitants of a vehicle only got insta gibbed if they vehicle was surrounded and then wrecked, as they couldn't go into base contact with vehicle then move to disembark?

I thought if you exploded a trukk while it was surrounded the only survivors would be those who lived thru explosion and could be placed in crater 1" away from enemy models? (all of those not being able to be placed being counted as casualties?)

Yeah, and the only thing I run is 3-6 MANz with the 40mm bases, which are pretty difficult to place 1" away when an opponent had surrounded the Trukk before it exploded.

Rejn wrote:
They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

in 5th they did plenty of cowering, read your codex entry on them lol

To me, Killa Kans are suppose to be immune to small arms fire and rush into mid range and join the waaagh once they arrive or the kans are needed to hold down a flank or the like. Beleive it or not, Killa kans are not usless they are still an easily spammable strength 10 ap 2 array of fighters who get 3 attacks on the charge, sure they have horrible WS but let me make an observation for you here.

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.