Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, except, you skipped the most important part on page 71, while basically quoting everything around it.

A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above.

Woops, my bad, but there is a specific section for dealing with Ordnance fire.

I'll now be running:

Big Mek - KFF, 'Eavy Armor

Warboss - Warbike, Power Klaw, Cybork Body, Bosspole (my can opener to create wagon fodder)

Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big SHootas, Nob with Bosspole and Power Klaw

Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big SHootas, Nob with Bosspole and Power Klaw

Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big SHootas, Nob with Bosspole and Power Klaw

Dakkajet - Extra Supa Shoota, Fighta Ace

Deffkoptas X3 - Twin-Linked Rokkits (Can Openers, Distractions, and capable of tying up any major threats)

Deffkoptas X3 - Twin-Linked Rokkits

Looted Wagon - Boomgun, Reinforced Ram, 'Ard Case

Looted Wagon - Boomgun, Reinforced Ram, 'Ard Case

Looted Wagon - Boomgun, Reinforced Ram, 'Ard Case

Thoughts?

Is the bikerboss going to be outflanking with the koptas?

I think I would drop the looted wagons and take lootas personally.

 Billagio wrote:
Is the bikerboss going to be outflanking with the koptas?

I think I would drop the looted wagons and take lootas personally.

Lootas have a bad tendency to fail Ld and die, or just miss. So that, on top of the rules query on firing Ordnance with Looted Wagons is the reason I'm going to go with the wagons.

Plus, the models are awesome!

I'm not sure what I'll do with the boss yet, but he'll most likely scout for a T2 assault.

Well thats weird. The FAQ does state cruising speed which the BRB mentioned only snap fire, so i guess it does override it since thats what FAQs are for anyway. Odd. I guess the Snap Firing mention means if it suffers a pen hit and you roll for it.

Well that makes Ordinance a bit stronger now because who cares if you moved or not since theyre going to fire snaps with everything anyway after firing that bigass gun.

Also noone answered my question about the Strafing Run stating "regardless of the target" for pinning tests. What does that do for targets that normally cant be pinned?

I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.

then whats the point of saying regardless of the target. thats whats confusing me

If the target's Fearless? Maybe?

 KingCracker wrote:
I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.

Just like how bikes can never be pinned because it's explicitly stated in the book that they can't be pinned.

Maybe you're just reading it wrong or have a different language codex. In the english white dwarf entry, it's pretty clear that the strafing run entry just gives you the +1 BS against most ground units and pinning (normal pinning)

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.

Just like how bikes can never be pinned because it's explicitly stated in the book that they can't be pinned.

Maybe you're just reading it wrong or have a different language codex. In the english white dwarf entry, it's pretty clear that the strafing run entry just gives you the +1 BS against most ground units and pinning (normal pinning)

Probably is a translation issue, White Dwarf says the same thing for me as the BRB it just doesnt mention fliers since it came out before flier rules. Both say "Regardless of the target" which is what im talking about. Makes no sense to have that if the target automatically passes it anyway because of fearless, being a vehicle, or a bike. Thats why i was asking because that made me think there was some special event that happened like forcing bikes to take a dangerous terrain test or something.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Well thats weird. The FAQ does state cruising speed which the BRB mentioned only snap fire, so i guess it does override it since thats what FAQs are for anyway. Odd. I guess the Snap Firing mention means if it suffers a pen hit and you roll for it.

Well that makes Ordinance a bit stronger now because who cares if you moved or not since theyre going to fire snaps with everything anyway after firing that bigass gun.

No, you've got that wrong. You are allowed to fire ordnance weapons after moving cruising speed if your vehicle is not snap-firing. You are not given permission to snap-fire ordnance weapons. Most vehicles are snap-firing all their weapons after moving cruising speed, and my thus not fire their ordnance weapons. Fast or super-heavy vehicles, for example, are not snap-firing all their weapons after moving cruising speed, and thus may still use their ordnance weapons.

Also note that all ordnance weapons except for those odd valkyrie missiles are blast weapons, which you are explicitly forbidden from firing using the snap-fire rules. So unless you are allowed to fire at least one weapon at your regular BS, you may not use your ordnance weapon.

Ugh i really wish GW would word this crap better. The question doesnt ask what kind of vehicle, thats why im thinking any vehicle can do it regardless of the snap fire at cruising speed rule. The way its worded i dont see how you could take it any other way without adding in a word here or there to specify whether the snap fire rule from cruising speed is ignored or not for ordnance.
Also, the bit about Relentless comes after the bit about snap firing at cruising speed. And this FAQ further enhances the idea of still being able to fire at cruising speed because of that. Any rule that conflicts another that came before it comes in as a "but" or "however" to me. Thats just how im used to reading or speaking.
You can call a girl all sorts of wonderful things but the instant you say "But" and then say 1 negative thing suddenly everything you said means nothing. Same idea (lol sad example i know)

I don't really see how it's confusing or contradictory.

You may fire ordinance at cruising if the vehicle is not snap firing.

You may not fire ordinance if you are snap firing.

Non-fast vehicles snap fire at cruising.

Thus, only fast vehicles can fire ordinance at cruising.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Ugh i really wish GW would word this crap better. The question doesnt ask what kind of vehicle, thats why im thinking any vehicle can do it regardless of the snap fire at cruising speed rule. The way its worded i dont see how you could take it any other way without adding in a word here or there to specify whether the snap fire rule from cruising speed is ignored or not for ordnance.
Also, the bit about Relentless comes after the bit about snap firing at cruising speed. And this FAQ further enhances the idea of still being able to fire at cruising speed because of that. Any rule that conflicts another that came before it comes in as a "but" or "however" to me. Thats just how im used to reading or speaking.
You can call a girl all sorts of wonderful things but the instant you say "But" and then say 1 negative thing suddenly everything you said means nothing. Same idea (lol sad example i know)

Yeah, bad example, don't let your girl see that

It's really simple though, and despite GW's bad rules managing, they got this one perfectly clear. Some basic logic:

WH40k Has a permissive ruleset, so in order to shoot, you must be have permission to shoot. Seems trivial, but that's really the most important thing. By default any unit may shoot its weapon during it's shooting phase, so we've got permission as long as we are not forbidden otherwise.

Limitations:
1) Ordnance blast weapons are not allowed to shoot when you have moved.
2) Ordnance blast weapons are not allowed to shoot when you are snap firing for any reason.
3) Any rule explicitly tells you that you're not allowed to shoot (for example, when moving flat-out)
4) There are no targets in range and sight to shoot.

So if all of those four are not true, you may shoot at your heart's content.

5) Vehicles are both relentless and have explicit permission to shoot when moving, so you have permission to ignore 1)

So even if 1) is true and all other are not, you may still shoot with a vehicle. A big mek with a SAG may not.

6) Vehicles that move at combat speed may fire a single weapon at their full BS, all other weapons have to snap-fire. Because of 5) that weapon may be an ordnance blast weapon.
7) Vehicles that move at cruising speed may only fire weapons to snap fire. Because of 2) none of those may be an ordnance blast weapon.
8) Fast vehicles may use 6) when moving at cruising speed and ignore 6) when moving at combat speed.

So at cruising speed, a fast vehicle may shoot one weapon which may be an ordnance blast weapon because of 5), unless you are snap firing (for example, when your vehicle is shaken), there is no target or you are explicitly forbidden from shooting.

8) The FAQ tells you that even if you are moving very fast, you may still Ignore 1). Then it goes on reminding you, that you still have to follow 2). Since it doesn't mention 3) and 4) at all, they are also still in effect.

So basically, the FAQ didn't change the rules at all. It just clarified that cruising speed is completely irrelevant to the decision of whether you can shoot an ordnance weapon or not. As long as your vehicle is allowed to shoot a weapon at your full BS and you have something to shoot at, that weapon may always be an ordnance weapon.

How do you guys feel about the MANz missile at 1250 points? Im playing my friends SM tomorrow and I have a baseline list of:

HQ:

Big Mek with KFF

Troops:

20 boyz w/ nob pk bp

20 Boyz w/ nob pk bp

19 Boyz w/ nob pk bp

Heavy Support:
BattleWagon w/ RPJ, Deffrolla, BS
BattleWagon w/ RPJ, Deffrolla. BS
Battlewagon w/ RPJ, Deffrolla, BS

919 points

So I have some points left over as you can see. I was considering taking 4 MANz with a megaboss in a trukk to fill out the extra points. For the same cost I could get 22 lootas for some fire support or 2 trukk boy mobs and some extra big shootas.

I guess my main question is do you guys think I should opt for the MANz missile, lootas or trukks to fill out the points? My friend usually brings something along the lines of:

2 or so tac squads with a las cannon in each,
a missile devo squad,
2x Ass cannon deads
a las pred.
An HQ of some sort, prob a libby

personally i think the loota support would be better. You have PKs in the boy groups, and MANz want the same targets they do. If you went against an air heavy list you'd have severe issues with no lootas to deal with them.

However i like your idea there....i outta try that at 1500pts and have both lootas and manz missile.

With that many LasCannons, I'd actually suggest Truckboyz (though the Lootas would be very good against the vehicles) for more cheap meat for him to waste his high-strength shots on. Those Lascannons will rip right through Mega Armour, of course. Is there still Insta-death for double T? I think so...

Went with the lootas. They didnt preform as well as I hoped but I won anyways.

MANz are the cheese now. Id say go for it. You wont be disappointed unless their ride goes boom early on and they have to walk

Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles
My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS

Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles
My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS

Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.

Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.

Which is still a huge weakness. And far as i know Orks are the only ones with it...far as i know...IG/MEQs/Necrons/Nids dont have it and thats all i ever face (faced Eldar once, biker force)

 Billagio wrote:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles
My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS

Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.

Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.

You cant sweeping advance either. Also, there a re a couple units that get SnP, like Broadsides can get it. l

 KingCracker wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles
My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS

Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.

Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.

You cant sweeping advance either. Also, there a re a couple units that get SnP, like Broadsides can get it. l

Well, for them it's an upgrade. For Manz it's detrimental. Oblitz get it as well, i believe. But again, they have a use for it.

I don't know... If I played Tau I'd like Broadsides to have the ability to lay a couple Str10 shots into anything trying to charge them, just as a little threat.

Anvildude wrote:
I don't know... If I played Tau I'd like Broadsides to have the ability to lay a couple Str10 shots into anything trying to charge them, just as a little threat.

They still can. The upgrade lets them choose to be SnP until the end of their turn, so they basically just have relentless.

Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?

 virx67 wrote:
Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?

I've always found the trukks to be fast enough so that one extra inch really would never have made any significant difference. But you don't run the trukks bare, you'll want a ram to make sure you get through terrain.

 virx67 wrote:
Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?

I find rokkits on Trukks to be wasted points. They are just waaayyy to unreliable, or put another way, reliably bad, for the points.

I'd either run it with RPJ and Ram, or just Ram.

Ok, thanks for the help.

If you have the points, throw a Big Shoota into the squad.

As for Trukks, I only ever run them with a Reinforced Ram, so you will rarely ever be bothered by any terrain (and you can cross the board in 2 turns!)