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I thought you could only reroll the hit and run with Hellion units?

 Lokas wrote:
I thought you could only reroll the hit and run with Hellion units?

not how I was reading the rules but maybe.

The wording is a bit ambiguous, hit and run reroll is granted by "Master of the Skies", if you consider the whole section to mean "These effects only apply when Baron is with an unit of Hellions" then Lokas is right, if you treat the two sentences as separate, then Exergy is right, since a model with Hit and Run will grant the entire unit that USR.

Well, here's how interpret it.

Baron Sathonyx can make the rerolls to hit and run and dangerous terrain tests if he was a single model unit, as the rule says "Baron Sathonyx and any unit of Hellios he joins..."

It doesn't say he has to be with a unit of hellions to take advantage of his rule.

However, the initiative test and distance roll for hit and run are taken per unit, not per model. "A unit that contains at least on model with this special rule... If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an initiative test."

So it's the unit making the test, not the Baron. The unit, if it is not hellions, does not get the rerolls.

However, as Dangerous Terrain is done on a model-by-model basis, you'd be able to reroll Baron's dangerous terrain rolls but not his unit's. If they aren't Hellions.

Aye, sorry, that was what I meant as well, Baron gets those effects, or when he's with a blob of Hellions. And that's how I read the rules too, feel a bit cheesy to say the hit and run part is separate.

I felt the same way about Lelith's "penetrating blade" granting ignore armour to her grenades as well...

Played an 1850 point game yesterday. It was a blast; I tabled him. But I brought a ancient haemoculus and a regular haemonculus with some grotesque (and they still have it). I had 3 liquefier guns in it, and 2 venom blades, and the upgrade grotesque had scissor hands, oh and the ancient haemo had a casket of flensing that I for got to use. They are a good clean up and tarpit group.

I also brought 6 reaver jetbikes (2 heat lances, and a cluster caltrop); they worked very well for me also. I used them the way I wanted to, and just had them zipping around and blade vaning everything I could. They just shot one squad and were going to assault but the squad ran off the table so that didn't happen. Also brought a 20 man squad of warriors with a blaster (just in case) and 2 splinter cannons (the Duke started with them, so they had 3+ poison shots). They just camped on the objective and shot everything within 36 inches of them. The Duke was kicking butt and taking names too; I rolled a 1 and a 5 for combat drugs so obviously I went with the 3d6 for running. Just kidding the extra attack is the one I took, so first challenge he had, he hit 6 times and wounded 6 times with 4 dice being a 5 or 6. Needless to say the wolf guard died very violently. Oh and I went the route of giving all my hekatrixes venom blades and they worked really well. Just more wounds.

I also tried a talos again. It stayed alive and did some damage on its own too. I had enough of other higher priority targets that he was left alone.

Really happy with the list, and the friend I played against (who is my regular weekly opponent) said that it was probably one of the best list I had put together. It had everything that a well balanced list needed. It could take on everything reasonably well.

I've said it before but I love the changes in 6th edition, and the Dark Eldar are just fine.

Regardless of Sathy's rerolls, he's still our best HQ by a big margin.

Speaking of, after the great success of my wyches in my last game, I decided to bring this wisdom over to my other list.

Baron

(2x) 5 Wyches w/ Haywires and a Razorflail mounted in a Venom w/ extra Splinter Cannon

(2x) 5 Wyches w/ Haywires and a Hekatrix w/ a Venom Blade mounted in a Venom w/ Extra Splinter Cannon

(2x) 6 Reaver Jetbikers, 2 heat lances, 1 cluster caltrop

Beast Pack, 3 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Khymerae

(3x) Ravager w/ Dark Lances

Total is 1478, gives me the proper wiggle room when I build two more Hekatrixes with venom blades. Got a game in with this list today thanks to class letting out early. It was against my good old guard buddy. I lost this round due to a few poor decisions, forgetting to pre-measure a couple times, and as always, uncooperative dice. Either way, it was a close victory thanks to secondary objectives (I snagged all three and he only managed linebreaker) and we came close to tabling each other. He had a primary objective held by a commanding officer with only one arm and a missing command squad, and fourteen plucky guardsmen. I had three reavers and an immobilized ravager with a single hull point and a missing dark lance.

It was a brutal beat down shoot 'em up, and a lot of fun. I think this may become my main list, despite the fact that I lost, it did exactly what I wanted it to, and really suits my playstyle. I think I may have just nailed the holy grail my friends.

Interesting list, not as experienced a DE here, so a few questions:

1) How well do those HWG wyches perform? Are they any good in AI combat? I'm only fielding one HWG wyches unit at 8-10 size, while they're still amazing at AT, I'd rather to have the option to AI decently, also at 8 wyches, I could almost guarantee 4HP off any vehicle they assault, even if they get WS1!

2) I'm still trying to decide on how to run a beast pack, is 5 khymerae enough at 1500pt? I'm thinking to run a pack of 10 with 4 razorwing flocks, is that a bit of an overkill?

3) A non-list related question... I want to build a grotesque unit(of 4), seeing the rumoured release list saying we'll get grotesque squad next year, would my fellow DE advise me to wait...?

And, no doubt, Baron is the best! I just like him for the +1 initiative...

They're not the end-all-be-all, but they pull their weight. In my last game, the wyches w/ a hekatrix killed three times their number in guardsmen. It's a matter of knowing what they can and can't kill, and if they can't kill it on their own, bolster them with another wych squad or a reaver squad, or the beaststar. They also tend to take less damage from overwatch due to the fact that there are fewer bodies per unit, but more units. Overwatch can only be done once per turn after all, so if you put some hurt on the first squad charging in, the second comes in unscathed.

5 Khymerae is plenty. You don't need more if you put the Baron in front. Make sure he's the closest model to whatever is threatening you, and then use LoS! to allocate the wounds wherever you want them. Battlecannon throwing down a half dozen instant-death wounds? Well, Baron will probably eat one with his shadow field, and the Khymerae can soak up the rest on their invulns. That punisher put down a dozen low strength shots? LoS! them onto the Razorwings, taking advantage of their high number of wounds to tank damage without losing efficiency. It hasn't been completely destroyed in a game yet, and Sathy has only lost his Shadowfield once and has yet to die for me.

I would suggest converting your own, if you're confident in your modeling skills. The finecast model is terrible and I don't have high hopes for the upcoming models considering the precedent. If you're not so confident with your green stuff skills, then patience and hope are your best bet.

And if you think he's only good for the +1 iniative, you haven't had him outflank a unit of Reaver Jetbikes, or entertained the idea of a Khymerae throwing an assault grenade in the shooting phase. Which, yes, you can do that. The whole squad counts as being armed with grenades, including the meat-puppies. There's no real gameplay situation where this would be useful, but it is hilarious.

... Welp, time to rethink my list then.. !

And, nah, my green stuff skill is so good, last time I tried to convert my own baron model, I ended up just building a normal hellion and then writing "DIS BARON!" on the base... So, I'll just wait and pray, I guess...

Also, haha... Then again, they do have those weird arm things on their back!

Baronyu wrote:


3) A non-list related question... I want to build a grotesque unit(of 4), seeing the rumoured release list saying we'll get grotesque squad next year, would my fellow DE advise me to wait...?

I converted up 8 grots from rat ogres and left overs from the Talos. It was easy and cheap and required minimal green stuff. I would convert your own. It is unlikely that the new grots will be cheap or very good. If they are, you can always add another squad.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436789.page

Oh wow, they look amazing! Do you get a lot of spare coven-y bits from a box of Talos then?

Baronyu wrote:
Oh wow, they look amazing! Do you get a lot of spare coven-y bits from a box of Talos then?

yup, 8 rat ogres from ebay, leftovers from the talos and some random things from my bits box.



o, terminator bases from AoBR(you can get them wherever)

Good looking grotesques... I have also seen fantastic looking grotesques made by combining the bits in a talos/cronos kit with the new vampire counts monstrous infantry kit.

Lokas thanks for your continued input in this thread. It's really helping me advance my list building even with having so little free time these days.

But I don't always agree.. I love being wrong as it makes the game a more varied experience for me, but here are some things I need convincing on. I'd love it if you could give me your sales pitch on them.

#1. Ravagers. I understand the nightfight/night vision change helps them quite a bit. But they are directly competing with similar weapons platforms with measurably increased survivabilty (the flyers). Is their presence on the first turn of the games with nightfight worth it? Do you reserve them if it isn't nightfight on turn 1? Do you roll on strategic traits for more chances of nightfight?

#2. Baron. I get it, reroll first turn, stealth, hit and run, semi tanky with shadow field. An he is in a slot that isn't really dark eldar's strength. But I guess I'm just not interested in any of the units he typically joins, hellions, beastmasters and jetbikes. And if he is joining an infantry unit, isn't duke sliscus just going to be all around better? He has a decent chance of giving the unit he joins feel no pain, the 3+ poison, good drugs for our mostly wych troops and for our exceedingly useful jetbikes.

To add to the discussion, I'd like to just stress the strengths of hay wyches in venoms, reavers, and both flyers. I've been hit and miss with my grot-star and Harlie-star, but incredibly mobile MSU shooty has been really working well.

Also, across all codecies, increasing my percentage spent on functional scoring units, and diversifying the types of shooting attacks I have, and the amount of heavy and fast attack I field has improved my game in 6th.

Exergy wrote:

Baronyu wrote:


3) A non-list related question... I want to build a grotesque unit(of 4), seeing the rumoured release list saying we'll get grotesque squad next year, would my fellow DE advise me to wait...?

I converted up 8 grots from rat ogres and left overs from the Talos. It was easy and cheap and required minimal green stuff. I would convert your own. It is unlikely that the new grots will be cheap or very good. If they are, you can always add another squad.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436789.page

There's lots of ways to convert up Grotesques.

Island of Blood Rat Ogres are popular.
I've used Wood Elf Dryads (bulked out a little GS).
You also have several options in the Beastmen range, then those newish Vampire Counts beasties. Several Ogre Kingdoms models (the base Ogres are fairly good. I intend to make some Urien-Boosted Grotesques out of these).

A lot of Fantasy models in the end, and that's before looking at alternate model ranges.

Ork Warbosses from AOBR for most of mine.

IOB rat ogres work great.

I've even seen some converted from yehtees and ogryn.

 Shep wrote:
Good looking grotesques... I have also seen fantastic looking grotesques made by combining the bits in a talos/cronos kit with the new vampire counts monstrous infantry kit.

Lokas thanks for your continued input in this thread. It's really helping me advance my list building even with having so little free time these days.

But I don't always agree.. I love being wrong as it makes the game a more varied experience for me, but here are some things I need convincing on. I'd love it if you could give me your sales pitch on them.

#1. Ravagers. I understand the nightfight/night vision change helps them quite a bit. But they are directly competing with similar weapons platforms with measurably increased survivabilty (the flyers). Is their presence on the first turn of the games with nightfight worth it? Do you reserve them if it isn't nightfight on turn 1? Do you roll on strategic traits for more chances of nightfight?

#2. Baron. I get it, reroll first turn, stealth, hit and run, semi tanky with shadow field. An he is in a slot that isn't really dark eldar's strength. But I guess I'm just not interested in any of the units he typically joins, hellions, beastmasters and jetbikes. And if he is joining an infantry unit, isn't duke sliscus just going to be all around better? He has a decent chance of giving the unit he joins feel no pain, the 3+ poison, good drugs for our mostly wych troops and for our exceedingly useful jetbikes.

To add to the discussion, I'd like to just stress the strengths of hay wyches in venoms, reavers, and both flyers. I've been hit and miss with my grot-star and Harlie-star, but incredibly mobile MSU shooty has been really working well.

Also, across all codecies, increasing my percentage spent on functional scoring units, and diversifying the types of shooting attacks I have, and the amount of heavy and fast attack I field has improved my game in 6th.

Always happy to help. I wish I had the time to write up proper battle reports and really go in depth with what my games and what I've been tinkering with, but unfortunately with the fall semester starting up, I've been doing a precarious balancing act of wargaming, video-gaming, and schoolwork.

As for your points. I'm actually not going to disagree with any of them, at least not outright. Voidravens and Razorwings are both potent assets. Ones that I've experimented with and have never found disappointing, provided I don't attempt to do silly things with them such as firing shatterfields at vehicles. That being said, the way I build my lists is with a heavy first-turn alpha-strike in mind. You'll notice that I don't include a lot of short range weaponry, most of my firepower in both of my 'main' lists comes in the form of splinter cannons and dark lances. I do this because I'm a very aggressive player and I prefer to shut down as much of my opponent's army as possible on the first turn, this is the way I play and it has worked best for me. Ravagers are key to this strategy, as they give me an incredibly cost-effective source of first turn anti-tank fire.

However.

My way is not the only way to play. I expect I'll be changing this philosophy when a proper Voidraven kit is released. Mushkilla's battle reports in particular have cemented my belief that Dark Eldar can play well even without their alpha-strike in sixth. There is a lot of potential for lists with fliers as our heavy support, and I plan on tapping into it in-depth when I have the opportunity. It will mean a different playstyle, one that focuses on using our speed to acquire good hiding spots and cover on the first turn as opposed to finding the best firing position on my side of the board and unleashing hell.

As for specifically how I use my Ravagers. Most of my games, they start on the board. There is a very specific set of circumstances that have to be in place for me to hold them in reserve. If I don't have the first turn, it is not night fight, my opponent has sufficient firepower and line of sight and/or mobility to acquire line of sight to threaten my Ravagers and the terrain is too thin that I don't feel like I can get cover for all three of them. I have yet to play a game where I've kept them off the board. I have played games where it wasn't night fight and I didn't have the first turn, but there was sufficient terrain to keep the big guns safe. Venoms don't hog up a lot of real-estate thanks to their small frames, so I can often get cover or LoS blockage for my entire army. Ravagers aren't as survivable as the aircraft, by a fair margin, but they are 40 points cheaper as well. If they only survive to turn 2 or 3, they've usually made their points back by popping light transports, AV 10-11. I try to avoid firing them at AV 12, as strength 8 versus AV 12 is not very efficient, so I save the battle tanks and such for my HWG wyches who don't give a damn about AV, or my heat lances. Besides, crippling my opponent's mobility on the first turn is usually more damning than crippling their firepower. I've won more games because troops couldn't make it to objectives in time, or lost their transport and withered under a hail of splinter cannon shots than I've won games because their big guns were disabled.

Secondly, on the baron... No, you're totally right. Sliscus would be much more useful if you're not taking any of the units that Baron runs with. I've seen people take him as a 100~ point tax to make their army legal, but he never does anything in those games. It's a huge waste of his potential and those sorts of lists would often be better suited by alternative choices. Sliscus makes Warrior blobs absolutely terrifying, as they can advance for 1-2 turns with splinter cannons firing at full capacity, along with any rifles in range. He makes MSU wych squads and Reaver squads a considerable CC threat. He allows your vehicles to deep strike, which can be exceptionally useful for acquiring good firing positions. I'm debating taking advantage of this by adding a pair of the old fashioned MSU warrior squads from 5th in my Sliscus list, and deep-striking them in either Venoms or Raiders. Raiders would put 2 dark lance shots wherever I damn well please, but venoms are cheaper, smaller, less likely to mishap and a good anti-infantry threat.

And Dark Eldar scoring units are beastly. I love our troops selection. I used to max out at 6 troops at 1500 points, just because they were good and did exactly what I wanted them to do. I never feel bad about spending the majority of my points on our footsloggers, they're damned good.

 Shep wrote:
I have also seen fantastic looking grotesques made by combining the bits in a talos/cronos kit with the new vampire counts monstrous infantry kit.

Have a link to these? I can't seem to find anything.

ThePhish wrote:

 Shep wrote:
I have also seen fantastic looking grotesques made by combining the bits in a talos/cronos kit with the new vampire counts monstrous infantry kit.

Have a link to these? I can't seem to find anything.

Probably these

I plan on using Legion of Everblight Warspears for my Grotesques (when I get around to converting them, along with all my other projects)

Put some extra talos/chronos masks on, give 'em some lumps and tumors on their backs with more talos/chronos bits for vials and protruding bones and gak. Some DE looking weapons from various kits, and bam. Some wicked Grotesques.

 Lokas wrote:
I plan on using Legion of Everblight Warspears for my Grotesques (when I get around to converting them, along with all my other projects)

Put some extra talos/chronos masks on, give 'em some lumps and tumors on their backs with more talos/chronos bits for vials and protruding bones and gak. Some DE looking weapons from various kits, and bam. Some wicked Grotesques.

This is what I am doing, going to run ten with Urien for fun. FYI that kit is absolutely amazing, each model is individually packed in i9ts one bubble pocket pre-cleaned with all its components and they fit perfect. It was my first PP kit and I have to admit I was blown away at the time and care put into their product compared to GW. If you haven't bought yours yet look on ebay stores, you can buy it now them with combined shipping and save big. http://eyeoferror.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/dark-eldar-grotesque-conversions.html this is where I got the idea originally.

Oh geez, so many choices...

Are those everblight warspears the right size for grotesque though? They look to be more wrack size...

 Lokas wrote:
Overwatch can only be done once per turn after all

This came up in a game I had and I couldn't find the rule that says how often you can overwatch. (I was the one overwatching, ironically.) Can you point me?

 Foo wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
Overwatch can only be done once per turn after all

This came up in a game I had and I couldn't find the rule that says how often you can overwatch. (I was the one overwatching, ironically.) Can you point me?

EDIT: Scrap this, went slowed.

In bold in the Overwatch Restrictions paragraph.

Baronyu wrote:
Oh geez, so many choices...

Are those everblight warspears the right size for grotesque though? They look to be more wrack size...

Scroll down on the link above http://eyeoferror.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/dark-eldar-grotesque-conversions.html . There's a size comparison. They are ~1.5 times the size of a wrack.

ThePhish wrote:

Baronyu wrote:
Oh geez, so many choices...

Are those everblight warspears the right size for grotesque though? They look to be more wrack size...

Scroll down on the link above http://eyeoferror.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/dark-eldar-grotesque-conversions.html . There's a size comparison. They are ~1.5 times the size of a wrack.

I saw, but aren't they still a bit less bulky than normal grotesque?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Foo wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
Overwatch can only be done once per turn after all

This came up in a game I had and I couldn't find the rule that says how often you can overwatch. (I was the one overwatching, ironically.) Can you point me?

EDIT: Scrap this, went slowed.

In bold in the Overwatch Restrictions paragraph.

Thanks. Amazing the things you don't see when in the middle of a game!

I've personally been wrestling with taking an HQ that fits in with an "all" shooting army. Currently i'm just taking an Archon w. Shadow Field and Blaster to ride with my blaster born, but i've been contemplating:

Haemy - 75
-LG, Hex Rifle

Chilling with:

Wracks (5) - 85pts.
-LG, Apoth w. Hex Rifle


Maybe slapping a raider on em, they won't ride in it, but its another way to get another Dark Lance in the List, plus could easily use it to help screen troop carrying vehicles. The main idea would be for the squad to camp back court objectives (i know very un DE) providing decent 36" fire support and having access to decent charge deterrence via 2 LG. Plus they help clear out my back court of Deep Strikers.

Thoughts?

I've prepared a list with Lady malys in, but I never see her mentioned by people in this thread. Is the Duke really that better?

Lady Malys is kinda middle of nowhere:

Her CC ability isn't stellar for that cost, it's just a power weapon(AP3) that gives you +2 attacks, no drugs and striking at S3(4 with FC). Her psychic immunity only applies to her unit, although it's great, your enemy could just easily nuke the rest of your army with psychic instead. Her redeployment shenanigan happens before steal the initiative, so the only use for that is when you got 1st deployment, and decide to mess with your opponent's counter-deployment. And she only has a 4++ save.

At only 20 more points, Duke can bring a special weapons that can ignore armour on 5+ but otherwise works like a venom blade, 2 drugs roll(quite a nice boost for wych cult units), deep strike for our vehicles, a boost to 1 of our kabalites and a 2++ save.

So personally, I see Malys as more of a shenanigan character, I'd bring her for fun, but I wouldn't bring her if I'm going competitive(which I won't ever).

Just IMO though, not at all representing every DE out there!