Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AWESOME! thank you for that :-) very helpful.

Baronyu wrote:

One game? Or every game?

That's just bad luck, really, you rolled 1 twice, on 2 dice.

I'm not making fun of your misfortune, I consistently roll 1 on 1-2 dice as well, most of my early games with my friends, they all thought my archon w/ SF was a joke, because I always fail that 2+ roll on the 1st hit he takes, so I had never managed to get my archon into range to do his crazy CC damage. It's only a recent 5th ed game that they started to see my archon as a threat, as I managed to single-handedly(literally 1 model, his escort-wyches got murdered) took down a full size assault marine squad with a HQ through agoniser, shadowfield and sweeping advance(I dealt some wounds, took none thanks to my SF, then I won combat and swept them away). So don't sweep the Baron LOS tactic under the carpet because of 1 poor rolling experience!

Thankfully, just 1 game, or I would start buying stock in a dice company. Still an excellent HQ. I will probably continue to use hims as I did in my last game to try and preserve more the of the squad.

ThePhish wrote:
I've found that using the Baron for LOS! was a quick way to get him insta killed. Maybe due to poor rolling, but all it took was my opponent asking, "Is that your warlord?", "yes", S6 shots at that guy. It only took 2 shots last game. Passed LOS!, khymera died, Failed LOS!, Failed Shadow field. Bye bye baron. I gave up a secondary objective top of turn 1. My Baron will be running 2nd row from now on, with a nice khymera bubble wrap.

Sort of off subject, but it works for me. Locally we are against GW dice. Do you use GW dice when you play? If so get rid of them as quickly as possible and pick up a pack of 36 from someone else. I have two sets of 36 dice. One set I use for small arms fire and non special weapons in close combat. The other set I use for high strength shots and special weapons in close combat. It's funny but ask my friends who I play with, I have some pretty hot dice rolls. It is a system that works for me.

But on to things that are more real and back on subject; I wouldn't base any changes on one game. I would honestly play probably at least 10 games with a list (or if you can 20 to 30) to really see how it works. Luck wasn't on your side with those rolls. I have seen terminators take 47 wounds and not lose a single guy, I have made 29 saves in a row with my archon with his SF. Crazy things happen when you roll dice.

Failing both LOS! and the Shadowfield is a 1/36 chance...
That's just bad luck, really, you rolled 1 twice, on 2 dice.

I was re-reading and missed this. I failed my LOS! on a 3, then failed the shadowfield. Why would I need to roll a 1 twice in a row? I thought it was 1-3 to fail LOS! and then take the save. What am I missing here?


edit....nevermind, I found it, pg. 39. Genius, that's me. Bastard wouldn't have been dead. Oh well. Lesson learned. Thanks guys.

LOS for HQ's is on a 2+

Squad sergeants are on a 4+

I don't know who started this....but wow...

Just started my DE army last week and have got more wins so far in 6 edition with them than I have with I.G and SM. I didn't drop Wytches, and I still run a CC Archon. This army is very fast compared to my others with ALL the units.

Today I made a demon player whine and whine about how broken my warriors were because they could kill BOTH demon princes with rapid fire posion.....

Not to mention the jink on the skimmers means NOT buying flickerfields. If your not geting first turn, make sure they stay nice and hidden in deployment.

Just stop trying to play 5th edition DE and adapt, DE is STILL one of the most powerful armies to run out there. I have killed hordes, small elites, and well mixed units.

Frankly, I still intend to get flickerfields when I can.

With the no-save-first-turn and no-save-in-combat, and no-save-against-weapons-that-ignore-cover I've found still taking it is rather useful.

Well that changes everything.

None of us had realized that our poison weapons wound on a fixed number, or that we get jink saves now.

 Lokas wrote:
Well that changes everything.

None of us had realized that our poison weapons wound on a fixed number, or that we get jink saves now.

YESSSSS!

 Lokas wrote:
Well that changes everything.

None of us had realized that our poison weapons wound on a fixed number, or that we get jink saves now.

yeah I totally thought 9 point guardsmen were a good idea.

@Ovion

But we got a 50% chance at getting nightfighting + 16% chance to make it happen if we pick that warlord table, so the "no-cover-save-on-1st-turn" only happens when you failed both of those.

@Fido198674

We know our poisoned shootings have only gotten better this edition. We know we're still amazing at hurting high T enemy unit. We know we're faster than others, albeit not by so much this edition. We know we have jink saves. We know we're still a good army. And we've mostly adapted to this edition, but that doesn't change the fact that we have seen quite a few unnecessary nerfhammer striking on our army... And funny enough, this thread is all about discussing how we adapt to the changes instead of going "shut up and adapt"!

Baronyu wrote:
@Ovion

But we got a 50% chance at getting nightfighting + 16% chance to make it happen if we pick that warlord table, so the "no-cover-save-on-1st-turn" only happens when you failed both of those.

50% chance of night fighting, + 8% chance from warlord table(16%*50%)
58% chance of night fighting

Why is it only an 8% chance on the warlord table?

Baronyu wrote:
Why is it only an 8% chance on the warlord table?

because the two events are independent. there is a 50% chance from the game, then the warlord talbe only takes effect IF the game's 50% chance failed.

So 50% chance of night-fighting from the game. + (16% chance warlord table * 50% not night-fighting from the game)

Ah... makes sense... Still, we have a better chance at getting nightfighting than in last ed...

Ok, so by the numbers, it's still a 4/10 chance for getting no cover save on the first turn.
Then 10/10 the time, you still have:
No save against attacks made in close combat.
No save against weapons that ignore cover. (i.e. flamers which are now more common due to overwatch)
Furthermore, they provide a save against failed Difficult Terrain tests.

I think the up to 120pts spent on 5+ Invulnerable saves for vehicles across the board is still plenty worth it.

Now, Tau Disruption pods have become significantly less worth it now (hell, almost pointless), only providing any benefit at all, turn 1...

I don't care what other people say, I still take night shields and flickerfields on all my transports and vehicles. For me it is worth it. I'm not losing a lot of fights either.

Not saying that FF is really that useless, I mean, it has all those uses that Ovion listed, but it's just that the choice isn't so clean-cut this ed. Myself, for example, is still struggling to decide whether to take FF or NS, CrimsonKing's solution is a bit too costly for the still-fragile boats of ours.

Baronyu wrote:
Not saying that FF is really that useless, I mean, it has all those uses that Ovion listed, but it's just that the choice isn't so clean-cut this ed. Myself, for example, is still struggling to decide whether to take FF or NS, CrimsonKing's solution is a bit too costly for the still-fragile boats of ours.

I go with both where able for 'heavy hitters' such as Ravagers / Razorwings / Voidravens, then flickerfields for everything else.
I also tend to put Night Shields on Venoms when able, but my Venoms tend to hang back and strafe, so it's beneficial for them to have both.

I love Night Shields, and they're good for stopping rapid fire, melta and such, but ultimately, on Raiders or anything else that's rushing into 18" or less of the enemy it's generally not worth it as ranges quite quickly close enough that small arms are just as dangerous. If hanging out at over 18" away - great, go for it.

i take FF on ravagers and the fliers. Things that cost over 100pts. Raiders on the other hand i leave relatively naked

Definitely take FF on the fliers then you don't need to do evasive maneuvers and still get the 5+ save.

For me, it's...

Ravager - FF for sure, NS is good against melta and stuff, but there aren't too many AT/spammy weapons that has a shorter range than our DL/dissie, so I think 10 points to reduce effectiveness of a few weapons while still running the chance of getting shot down by everything over 36" is a bit of a waste. Can imagine NS being fun for necrons/eldar/DE though...

I might be a bit list-tailoring though, as I only play against my gaming group who mostly rely on super long range AT guns to take down my vehicles...

Flyers - FF, I'm still in emo mood about the whole supersonic movement restriction thing... So they aren't gonna get that extra 10 points!

Raider/venom - This is the main one I'm struggling with, I certainly want them to survive until their job is done, having my assault unit stranded on my end of the table makes me sad. FF and NS both improve their odd of survival, but taking both feels such a waste when they inevitably go down by turn 3... So I don't know...

Baronyu wrote:For me, it's...

Ravager - FF for sure, NS is good against melta and stuff, but there aren't too many AT/spammy weapons that has a shorter range than our DL/dissie, so I think 10 points to reduce effectiveness of a few weapons while still running the chance of getting shot down by everything over 36" is a bit of a waste. Can imagine NS being fun for necrons/eldar/DE though...

I might be a bit list-tailoring though, as I only play against my gaming group who mostly rely on super long range AT guns to take down my vehicles...

Flyers - FF, I'm still in emo mood about the whole supersonic movement restriction thing... So they aren't gonna get that extra 10 points!

Raider/venom - This is the main one I'm struggling with, I certainly want them to survive until their job is done, having my assault unit stranded on my end of the table makes me sad. FF and NS both improve their odd of survival, but taking both feels such a waste when they inevitably go down by turn 3... So I don't know...

The Night Shields on things that hang back are there invaribly to ensure that only the vehicles target will really be in range to shoot back it it if it survives. That 6" reduction is usually enough to prevent 2/3rds+ of the enemy army being able to target it. With flyers, it prevents things that aren't practically touching the base from rapid firing it, and is more useful still.

Flickerfield on the flyer is amazing, it means it can fight at full capacity AND take the saves, other flyers need to evade and then either fire snap shots only, or disengage next turn.

Venoms come with Flickers as standard anyway, so that reduces that argument.

Played a game yesterday and charged a unit with both Wracks (they soaked up the single wound from overwatch) and then Wyches.

I ran into a problem, though. After I made it into combat, was mostly base-to-base or as close to it as possible with the Wyches and a Haemi. They attacked and killed five Orks.

When we got down to I4, the 3" pile-in wasn't enough to get the Wracks into base contact with any Orks, so they didn't get to attack. The Orks, however, moved in their 3" and were able to attack the Wracks back, because the combination of Wrack 3" and Ork 3" made up the 4" gap between them.

Did I do this correctly? Is that how things are supposed to work?

My grief with night shields on things that are going to sit at 36" (Ravagers, sometimes venoms, etc) is that, as has been mentioned, most IoM anti-tank weapons have a 48" range. So if we're shooting at them, they can shoot at us regardless of the night shields. But even against other DE players, or players who have a 36" threat bubble, they can just move up 6" and still be able to hit you. Considering most dark lances and the like are mounted on vehicles to begin with, that's not really a huge sacrifice, it's not like you're forcing them to snap fire to get at you. In my personal experience, Night Shields have never been a major hindrance for me when I've played against them, or for my opponents when I've used them. The exception being <24" weapons. It severely hinders Rapid Fire weapons ability to hurt our transports, or short range weapons like plasma or meltaguns. If I'm planning on putting my vehicles in those threat ranges, I'll give 'em a night shield. My warrior gunboats frequently get this upgrade because of how they operate in that 24" bubble.

I create a well tooled all comers list. Unless people you play against at tournaments all have the same list and you are the only DE player there, then no night shields would be fine. I play a lot of marine, marine varient armies, necron and tyranid armies. All of those armies I find having NS to be very advantageuos. Not for the big guns but for the small arms fire that can glance to death our vehicles. Yes you can move away from them, but at 1850 (which is usually the points I play at) there is only so much space on the board before you are within 24" of someone. It is about playing to your strengths and their weaknesses, making them play your game instead of vice versa, and hindering their ability to shoot at you with all they have.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570041a_Dark_Eldar_v1.1.pdf

Huskblade and klaives are AP2, Baron add +2 S to hammer of wrath!

Nice... This and the Tau FAQ have pleased me greatly...

Well the baronstar got nerfed. No more LoS! shenanigans.

Oh well. That just means going back to the way I played beast packs at the start of 6th, before I knew about LoS! gak. Put the razorwings closest to the dudes with bolters, and put the khymerae closest to the dudes with strength 6+. Easy peasy. And, actually, we received a kinda-buff in regards to challenges. Since it has been confirmed that excess unsaved wounds do not confer to the unit, Beastmasters are the ultimate fodder to keep scary characters away from the meat and bones of your unit. Don't want that powerfist punching your Razorwings to death? Challenge him with a beastmaster instead! That Beastmaster will get a powerfist rectal exam, but it's better than losing 5 wounds at a whack.

I have to say, I'm a little excited that Jetbiker wounds are now totally randomized. My FLGS had gotten used to hiding their characters and special weapons in either the front or back of the unit (depending on how we house-ruled the wounds being allocated at the time) and now there is no possible hiding places, and Reavers throw down enough bladevane wounds to make sure a few will land on somebody important.

What's stopping you from doing the Baron LoS thing that you were doing before? But anyway, you can't throw grenades with khymerae anymore.

Anyone remember when we were called "cupcakes" and all sort of names in that big thread where some of us said we wanted agoniser to be AP2? Now, instead of AP2 agoniser being on character(challenges, limit casualty), we have AP2 non-character melee specialists... Will we get upgraded to something better than "cupcakes"?

Damn GW, I haven't even finish building my grotesques and beastmaster unit and they're tempting me with incubi!!

Still no clarification for Lelith's penetrating blade though, should we take it as for CC only? Or we take it as a metaphor for how good she is with her attacks and apply to her grenades as well?