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Red Viper wrote:Yeah it sounds like a fun unit. I have a bunch of rat ogres laying around...

Do you guys think 4 in a raider with archon and haemonculus would be workable? Or should I just run 10 + ICs and dare my opponent to try?

I have never used Grotes before, but this sounds like a lot of fun. I don't fight a lot of S10... and I'm the GK player in my group, so...

3-4 in a raider with a Haemonculi is the 'standard' for Grotesques.
Or at least it WAS in 5th... (the wound allocation shenanigans with a 3 man unit was great). From the games I've played, I think if anything they're slightly less durable now.
Most games I have done with my DE have been more Wrack focused than groesquey, or 500-1000pts.

I really should really roll out my Dark Eldar again, but I've been enjoying using my Tau (last christmas' present to myself that I finally fairly solidly finished just in time for 6th )
Maybe in a lil while.

I like the foot slogging group of grots personally, for the cost of that raider you almost get 6 more wounds and more importantly your units foot print is hard to avoid and with an aggressive deployment and a decent run move you can put the pressure on just fine. That and a big group will definitely make your opponent a reactionary player for sure which is what I like the unit for most. If they panic fire into them it's a waste of shots and if they run away you can use your other faster units to pick away at the flanks. When you hit them finally it's the killer blow usually. But maybe I should try one smaller unit in a raider and the larger ground unit and see what tactics I can cook up there.

I think at the end of the day, I need to buy 2 more boxes of Dryads to convert into more Grotesques anyway.

30 grots anyone?

 Ovion wrote:


3-4 in a raider with a Haemonculi is the 'standard' for Grotesques.
Or at least it WAS in 5th... (the wound allocation shenanigans with a 3 man unit was great). From the games I've played, I think if anything they're slightly less durable now.
Most games I have done with my DE have been more Wrack focused than groesquey, or 500-1000pts.

While FNP itself got a little worse, it's now much harder to lose it. Only instant death and S10 can remove it from Grotes, so I think they got tougher overall. I can see my megalomaniac Archon enjoying himself with such a beefy bodyguard unit. Plus, it's nice that he will have FNP and Furious Charge.

I think I'm going to try 4 in a raider first and see how they hold up.

 Red Viper wrote:

 Ovion wrote:


3-4 in a raider with a Haemonculi is the 'standard' for Grotesques.
Or at least it WAS in 5th... (the wound allocation shenanigans with a 3 man unit was great). From the games I've played, I think if anything they're slightly less durable now.
Most games I have done with my DE have been more Wrack focused than groesquey, or 500-1000pts.

While FNP itself got a little worse, it's now much harder to lose it. Only instant death and S10 can remove it from Grotes, so I think they got tougher overall. I can see my megalomaniac Archon enjoying himself with such a beefy bodyguard unit. Plus, it's nice that he will have FNP and Furious Charge.

I think I'm going to try 4 in a raider first and see how they hold up.

The reason they're a little less durable, is in 5th, with 3 Grotesques and a Haemonculi, you were generally able to take 7 wounds before losing a single model. While yes we get the worse but more durable FnP save (which as a coven is my only save generally, so I'm OK with that at the end of the day.)

Also - 30 Grotesques (Liquifiers, Abs, Venom Blades) with 3-6 Haemonculi (with Venom Blades and Liquifiers) = 1320-1515
I can fit 2 troops and a heavy support in at 1500 with 30 grotesques.
And plenty at 2000.

So, 6-10 is the recommended number if one is to try foot slogging grotesques?

I usually run 3 in a raider with a master haemonculus, and a regular haemonculus. I think I need to put my fourth together and run (liq. gun, and scissor hand) with the haemies. Thats 3 liq. guns and and bunch of venom blades. Not to mention I threw a casket of flensing on the master haemie just to see how it works. I should probably take it off because I have never used it though, usually by the time I get in range I am using the liq. gun and then assaulting.
I am interested in using 10 on foot with say urien and and maybe another haemy. I have the old school urien model that I usually use for a haemy, and I have the new fine cast one too that I need to clean up and put together and paint.

Scissorhand on a Haemonculi is going to be less effective than a Venom Blade, because the Poisoned 2+ will cause more wounds.

I'm also always dubious about the ancient, I just don't see the extra stats worth the extra 30pts (that's a whole extra grotesque, 3 more wracks, half a vehicle, etc).

Also, apart from the +1Str from Urien is the only reason to take him, the 3 Haemonculi you could take instead are usually better.

Liquifier is of course, always great, love that APd6.

 Ovion wrote:
I think at the end of the day, I need to buy 2 more boxes of Dryads to convert into more Grotesques anyway.

30 grots anyone?

OMG! This! This 1000 times!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baronyu wrote:
So, 6-10 is the recommended number if one is to try foot slogging grotesques?

That's my take. I like 8, 10 is a bit overkill to be honest. If you were to run two units I would go with 6 each. But otherwise 6 would be my min for footslogging, it lets you take punishment from bad matchups or a bad string of rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are you guys thoughts on mind phase gauntlets, in a challenge they are ridiculous at stopping tough IC. Hit draigo three times and even he will sit there looking dumb.

 Ovion wrote:

I'm also always dubious about the ancient, I just don't see the extra stats worth the extra 30pts (that's a whole extra grotesque, 3 more wracks, half a vehicle, etc).

yeah for 10 points it would be a no brainer, 20 a little expensive, 30 way too much. I think +15 points is about right.

 Red Corsair wrote:
What are you guys thoughts on mind phase gauntlets, in a challenge they are ridiculous at stopping tough IC. Hit draigo three times and even he will sit there looking dumb.

I've been considering taking an ancient equipped with the mindphase gauntlet for exactly that purpose. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet though. Higher Initiative on the Ancient lets him attack before most other HQ's. S test and LD test for every hit. They're going to fail something. It would make one hell of a tar pit and maybe win by attrition??

I was using the scissorhand in 5th edition because of the extra attacks, and wounding on 3+ always. I might switch it out to a venom blade, and go with the ancient and the mindphase gauntlet, that is something to think about with the way it removes your opponent from play.

If only mindphase gauntlet and vexator mask works like MSS(3D6 instead of just a normal test), it'd have made them more awesome.

I don't think mindphase gauntlet is ever gonna be worth the points, of the 3 models who can take it, 2 of which are S3 models, even if you factored in FC, they wouldn't be doing a whole lot of wound with zero AP, especially if your plan is to use it to stop strong CC characters... Who would probably have good saves, good T, good S and good Ld. And they'll only work on characters who are I3 or lower, they won't stop the attacks if they strike on the same initiative.

Baronyu wrote:
If only mindphase gauntlet and vexator mask works like MSS(3D6 instead of just a normal test), it'd have made them more awesome.

I don't think mindphase gauntlet is ever gonna be worth the points, of the 3 models who can take it, 2 of which are S3 models, even if you factored in FC, they wouldn't be doing a whole lot of wound with zero AP, especially if your plan is to use it to stop strong CC characters... Who would probably have good saves, good T, good S and good Ld. And they'll only work on characters who are I3 or lower, they won't stop the attacks if they strike on the same initiative.

Yea except it triggers off hits not wounds. So actually even draigo will fail it often. I know from testing with dice and a few extra minutes one night. Now that Paladins aren't [ch] you can challenge draigo and neutralize him completely. Of course discretion is the better side of valor but if you simple have to confront him like I want to, it's a hilarious option.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea except it triggers off hits not wounds. So actually even draigo will fail it often. I know from testing with dice and a few extra minutes one night. Now that Paladins aren't [ch] you can challenge draigo and neutralize him completely. Of course discretion is the better side of valor but if you simple have to confront him like I want to, it's a hilarious option.

Oh, never noticed that part... I guess it can be a fun weapon for special occasions then.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Baronyu wrote:
If only mindphase gauntlet and vexator mask works like MSS(3D6 instead of just a normal test), it'd have made them more awesome.

I don't think mindphase gauntlet is ever gonna be worth the points, of the 3 models who can take it, 2 of which are S3 models, even if you factored in FC, they wouldn't be doing a whole lot of wound with zero AP, especially if your plan is to use it to stop strong CC characters... Who would probably have good saves, good T, good S and good Ld. And they'll only work on characters who are I3 or lower, they won't stop the attacks if they strike on the same initiative.

Yea except it triggers off hits not wounds. So actually even draigo will fail it often. I know from testing with dice and a few extra minutes one night. Now that Paladins aren't [ch] you can challenge draigo and neutralize him completely. Of course discretion is the better side of valor but if you simple have to confront him like I want to, it's a hilarious option.

except haemi ancients are init 5 and draigo is also init 5. He still gets to attack. Now if you are tlaking about a character with a PF then it is a great idea.

Yea but my haemi is always trip pain tokens, so if you set up the charge it works at I6, but yea against draigo you are better off avoiding him lol. Though a 10 an squad of super grots with lady malice and haemis will tear even paladins apart.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea but my haemi is always trip pain tokens, so if you set up the charge it works at I6, but yea against draigo you are better off avoiding him lol. Though a 10 an squad of super grots with lady malice and haemis will tear even paladins apart.

FC no longer gives +1 init

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea but my haemi is always trip pain tokens, so if you set up the charge it works at I6, but yea against draigo you are better off avoiding him lol. Though a 10 an squad of super grots with lady malice and haemis will tear even paladins apart.

FC no longer gives +1 init

I knew I should actually play with my DE during 6th lol. Good catch. So he is pretty limited now but very useful against unweildy weapon carriers like Lysander or Belial.

Well, I had my first game with Archon + Haemie + 4 Grots in a raider against my friends massive ork army.

At a crucial point in the game, my Archon's raider got shot down. They were 12 inches from the Nob Biker unit. Next turn I move and try to assault him... I roll a 4. Damn.

Now I know I'm in for the pain train. His painboy accepts the challenge my Archon issued, and got huskbladed. My Grots killed 3 bikers, leaving 2 bikers and the Warboss.... the warboss is S10.

My unit is wiped out, but my Archon aint skerrd. He challenges again, this time the Warboss accepts. I hit with all my attacks, but then cannot roll a 6 to wound. Luckily I made 3 shadowfield saves. Next turn, the warboss got huskbladed. Boom. S6 Archon running around... although then I conceded because the rest of my army was pretty much gone.

Not a great first showing, but that's one of their worst match ups. Also, if I had gotten the charge off I think I would have nearly wiped out his unit. A little bit of bad luck in failing the charge there. His warboss still would have killed 3 of my grots though, no way around it.

I see potential and I look forward to trying them again.

So yesterday was my first game with my incubi squad. I run the Duke and 6 incubi in a raider. I had a haemonculus with them also for a pain token. They did a very good job. I played against nids and they only lost 1 incubi. But I think they are going to be regulars in my army from now on. Also I think that the size is about right. Not too big to wipe out your opponent in one turn hopefully, but still big enough to take care of business.

 Red Viper wrote:
Well, I had my first game with Archon + Haemie + 4 Grots in a raider against my friends massive ork army.

At a crucial point in the game, my Archon's raider got shot down. They were 12 inches from the Nob Biker unit. Next turn I move and try to assault him... I roll a 4. Damn.

Now I know I'm in for the pain train. His painboy accepts the challenge my Archon issued, and got huskbladed. My Grots killed 3 bikers, leaving 2 bikers and the Warboss.... the warboss is S10.

My unit is wiped out, but my Archon aint skerrd. He challenges again, this time the Warboss accepts. I hit with all my attacks, but then cannot roll a 6 to wound. Luckily I made 3 shadowfield saves. Next turn, the warboss got huskbladed. Boom. S6 Archon running around... although then I conceded because the rest of my army was pretty much gone.

Not a great first showing, but that's one of their worst match ups. Also, if I had gotten the charge off I think I would have nearly wiped out his unit. A little bit of bad luck in failing the charge there. His warboss still would have killed 3 of my grots though, no way around it.

next time challenge with the haemi. then use the abbveration and archon to try and kill the warboss with precision strikes. It might not work, but you have a better chance than otherwise.

Obivously if you get the charge off, try and put the haemi and archon in contact with the warboss, but nothing else. That way his attacks have to go against one of them.

So I played my first 1850 game today (at least since 6th has dropped)

I basically just threw the duke and a warrior blob onto my 1500 point baron list. And you know what? It worked out spectacularly. I'm still in love with the 3+ warrior blob.

Unfortunately I have had more than my fair share of bourbon this evening so I will put out a detailed report when I can think more clearly.

So, the morning has come, I have a piping hot cup of tea and much to say.

First, I gotta say that I'm loving the Sliscus/Baron tag-team. Both are amazing force multipliers, and the warrior blob that accompanies the Baron into battle gives me an infantry unit that's durable enough to last.

My game was against a Blood Angel razorspam list, something like 4 or 5 razorbacks with minimalist assault squads inside and filled out FA and HS slots with predators. Not exactly the easiest list to play against, but I went into it with the plan of focusing on his troops. The basic idea was that if I could hold onto one objective and he couldn't hold onto any, I would win. So the first turn saw me popping open a bunch of Razorbacks with Dark Lances while turbo-boosting my jetbikes across the table on either side of his tanks. The venoms and beasts hid in LoS blocking cover, and the warrior blob hunkered down in a ruin. Drugs saw pain tokens for everybody. My opponent's turn, he shifted his remaining razorbacks to deny the Ravagers LoS, but then blew them away with his predators thus making it a moot point. Not much else happened.

Turn two, beast pack jumped forward and within danger range of one of the razorbacks, the jetbikes moved in and everything else stayed put. Splinter cannon fire from the blob severely depleted one assault marine squad, heat lances gutted a razorback and a predator and the beast pack surrounded and wrecked the razorback, insta-killing the squad inside as they couldn't disembark when the wreck was totally surrounded. I'm incredibly happy that I didn't explode the damn thing, and nearly panicked when the duke got two penetrating hits, only to roll a stunned and weapon destroyed result. Here's where my opponent started to mess up. He knew his MSU marine squads couldn't handle the beast pack, and now they were all on foot or dead. He pulled them back as best he could (and made a comment about how he missed his jump packs now) and then split his armored forces in two. He sent half his remaining predators hunting for my hiding venoms and the other half to get good firing lines on the beast pack. Despite his fast vehicles, he couldn't get LoS on the venoms, and he'd now drastically weakened the amount of firepower he put out towards the beast pack, which survived thanks to the Khymerae being cleverly placed (to toot my own horn a bit) on the outside of the assault, so they soaked up the auto/lascannon fire. Also he should have sent the Baal predators after the beast squad, those extra assault cannon shots would've probably made a difference.

Regardless, his forces were now split and pretty vulnerable. His troops were in retreat from the beast pack and I still had all of my venoms sitting behind the same ruin my warrior pack was hiding in. Now it was pretty much a cakewalk for me. I heat lanced one predator, assaulted another with the beast pack, blade-vaned an assault squad off the board, the venoms emerged from cover and began showering everything with a toughness value in poison and my warrior squad did much the same. In return for leaving him with only one scoring unit (or something like that) he killed off two of my venoms and immobilized a third. Feel no pain saw my MSU wyches survive decently well and they charged off after the tank to avenge their fallen transports. Splinter cannons and bladevanes killed the last assault marine squad and the beast pack did an extraordinary amount of damage to itself by making a predator explode. I lost all of my remaining Khymerae, the duke took a wound and one of my razorwing flocks only had two wounds left. Guess my good luck couldn't hold out forever. My opponent conceded at the end of my turn, since he had no scoring units left.

I can't remember what mission we were playing or how many objectives there were. I'm also not quite sure what happened to his warlord, I know he had one and he was attached to one of the assault marine squads but I have no idea if he'd gone with a captain or a librarian. If he went with the librarian, he didn't use any psychic powers. I think he was in the razorback that I prevented from disembarking but I cannot remember. The first stop after our game was my friend's house and he demanded I try this wonderful bourbon he'd gotten after hearing about how I'd acquired a thirst for Woodford reserve.

I ended up going home in a cab. It was a good night.

I've found from experience that most DE vehicles last longer than they would previously, as glances no longer role on the vehicle damage chart, so you can reliably move them without shaken and stunned results getting you down. Now, your open topped AV 10 transport is a fragile as a rhino (taking into account jink)

So, in regards to vehicles, they are not necessarily weaker (in fact I feel they have gotten nice little buffs) but instead, they are just more in line with other transports now. The role of transports in general has changed, no longer will a rhino last to turn 6 with only the stormbolter blown off! Now transports are used to TRANSPORT troops, rather than mobile bunkers.

God forbid we begin using transports as, well, transports!

Can't say that is the case for all the transports in game, nightscythe for example can last the entire game while doing good fire support. I hate to use points to points comparison, but we pay a measly amount compared with NS, land raider, etc, so I agree, we shouldn't expect our transports to last as long, but I don't think anyone is to begin with.

In regards to Lokas' batrep, I wonder if Baron hellions gang would work in that setup? Might be a little costly, but you do get better drugs!

I haven't contributed to this topic before because I've been testing things with all the three of my armies in sixth and now finally I can actually say something. Please forgive me if I mention something that has been said already, I have read through the topic but will propably not remember everything that has been said. All my points are based on my own experience and a little thinking.

First off I want to start with Wyches because they are what I based my army on when I started DE (I liked the models). 5 wyches in a Venom with two splinter cannons has been working well for me. 12 shots (16 if counting the pistols from the squad) will tenderize the enemy enough to make the overwatch more of a nuisance than an actual threat. The venoms can survive incredibly well especially if nightfighting is in use. Additionally equipping the wyches with haywire grenades makes them just plain evil against vehicles. Best of all, people like to field shooty units now more than before so wyches can eradicate pretty much anything in melee now with the weakness being if they end any of your own turns outside of melee they are pretty much dead. All this applies to the Succubus and the Bloodbrides also.

I don't even remember why did I get Scourges during 5th edition but now in 6th those haywire blasters are quite good. Throw in a solarite with a blast pistol if you have the points and they have a tad bit more potential. Deep strike near a vehicle and they can do some serious damage. Being a rather fast moving unit helps too.

Not much to say about Razorwing Jetfighters. I have never fielded Ravagers because I liked the look of Razorwings more (even though a ravager was a better option) but now in 6th this vehicle that I love oh so much is evil. Because of the lack of skyfire it can be hard to shoot down and if upgraded with a flickerfield it will survive even longer.

Raiders and Kabalite Warriors have always belonged together and in my opinnion nothing much has really changed with those two. They are quite good and work nicely. I am going to be testing a footslogging 20 man squad soon though.

Beastmaster units got interesting. Especially with the new wound allocation. Put some Khymerae in the front and that invulnerable save will be a wonderful source of swearing (from the enemy side that is).

Now that the huskblade is AP2 it is quite killy. An Archon with one and a soul trap and shadowfield is rather effective. I had a game where the enemy got the first turn and had incredibly good luck with dice (and I had bad luck with them) and his victory was assured before my first turn had even begun, but as I always play my games to the last man (or turn) no matter what my Archon ended up S10 with 4 pain tokens, and was the sole survivor of my army until finally was taken down on turn 6 when the enemy finally managed to get through that shadowfield. He single handedly slaughtered a lot of space puppies that day.

The Court of the Archon can be a good unit also. The thing just is that making it larger than the minimum size can be problematic. Medusae can be awesome or completely useless because of the random S and AP of the shooting but if you are the favorite of the dice gods that Eyeburst attack can get rid of those pesky 2+ save enemies. There is really never no need for two Lhameans. One is enough. Ur-Ghuls are quite useful. If you really want a large Court taking 5 of them is not really a bad idea. 3 attacks at S4 and they are quite nice meatshields to boot. Sslyths are my personal favorites though. They are expensive but well equipped and T5 W2 is never a bad thing. ID only on S10? Works for me. They are incredibly good front line men for the court also because of their survivability.

Reavers got a bit more durable now that the double toughness is gone but that's pretty much all that changed about them.

Mandrakes. I love them. They die often and can't charge on the first turn if they infiltrate but if they do get into melee they can be deadly. If they get that pain token they can be a surprisingly effective harassment unit.

That's it... I think. I hope I remembered everything I was going to say. Feel free to point out if you disagree about something. Oh, and before anybody is going to say "but unit X does it better" I never said that any of these units were the best possible choices for any purpose

For the same 160~ points that my beastpack loadout costs me, you'd only be able to get 10 naked Hellions.

The beasts actually have more bases, not to mention that the flocks alone have literally twice the wounds of the hellions. Then there's all the other benefits of the beast pack, rending, invulnerable saves and so on.

I don't think losing all of that is quite balanced out by the better drugs and the fact that the hellions would be scoring. Now, if you went balls out with it and took a full blown 20 strong Hellion mob with Sliscus on the side? That might be worth taking. Much more expensive, less cost-efficient, but it would certainly punk the hell out of whatever it came in contact with while also posing a frightening shooting threat. 40 Splinter Pod shots ain't nothin' to sniff at, especially if you jump from ruin to ruin to benefit from a 3+ cover save.

 gaovinni wrote:
Reavers got a bit more durable now that the double toughness is gone but that's pretty much all that changed about them.

Not true.

They turboboost 36 inches. This means that they can move 12", then move 36" in the shooting phase. 48" on any turn is nice.

They get Jink, giving them a cover save just for moving, not necessarily turboboosting.

They have Skilled Rider, meaning they completely ignore dangerous terrain.

Also, Skilled Rider adds 1 to the Jink save. So, moving any gives them a 4+ cover, and turboboosting gives them a 3+ cover.

There's a lot that changed about them.

Also, Bladevanes are still nasty, especially when using multiple units.

EDIT: And AP1 is nasty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea but my haemi is always trip pain tokens, so if you set up the charge it works at I6, but yea against draigo you are better off avoiding him lol. Though a 10 an squad of super grots with lady malice and haemis will tear even paladins apart.

FC no longer gives +1 init

I knew I should actually play with my DE during 6th lol. Good catch. So he is pretty limited now but very useful against unweildy weapon carriers like Lysander or Belial.

Which is precisely why he is so good.

The only real threats against Grots is S10. Lysander, Arjac, PK Warboss, Dreadknight, Justicar with Hammerhand and NFH, etc. The Haemi with Mindphase makes them much more survivable versus these characters.

Personally I find a 20 man blob of warrior's in ruins with the duke starting with them to give them the 3+ poison shot to be amazing.