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 Buzzsaw wrote:






That is some crazy flash on those shields. The round shields are similarly concerning, albeit in the other direction (overly thin, that is);

While I agree the thinned out areas are a problem and are unacceptable, thin translucent flash is about as hard to remove with a sharp hobby knife as wet snot. The flash isn't crazy until it becomes opaque and as thick as the proper model piece itself...



I got something very similar to this with a marine icon pack from Forge World. There was no way of getting rid of the flash without actually warping or breaking the icons themselves.

Wow, those bonebacks look very different (and a lot bigger?) than the normal goblins!

Thanks for the pics judgedoug

They're particularly visible at that last link from czakk, too, copied due to page rollover:

http://www.wampstore.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=69_77&product_id=420

 warboss wrote:



I got something very similar to this with a marine icon pack from Forge World. There was no way of getting rid of the flash without actually warping or breaking the icons themselves.

I've gotten some awful pieces from Forge World in my time. When it happens, I've contacted them with photos and asked them to replace them. Which they did without argument. Which is what I'll be doing if I get sub-par stuff from Tre' here (or anyone else).

Yeah, no prob, sorry about the low quality. Now at least I hope you can understand why I'm so excited about a new KS involving goblins, possibly new sculpts. the bonebacks have such detail and character, as do the spear goblins, and I missed getting the archers before they went out of print. I loved Tre's stuff so much I've been trying to get other painting projects finished and out of the way so when my Helsvakt models arrive I can devote as much time as possible painting the models.

me = Tre fanboy for life

The goblins will definately include new sculpts. Tre has mentioned at several places that he got several new ones ready to go, but is waiting for the time to introduce them. His next KS will do the trick.

Yep 13 new goblin footmen.

ETA for the rest of the KS stuff...... I think I am getting some this week and some next week but those horses ARE going to take some time to cast.

Scipio, I am just waiting for the pill bases on the wolves and for one of the waiting forms of the Varp.

 tre manor wrote:


Yep 13 new goblin footmen.

*squeeeee*

grefven wrote:
The most interesting in this discussion is weather or not any returns are accepted. I don't think that Tre would refuse customers to return their items, and I really hope that it isn't like that. I am quite certain that one got the right to change ones mind and return the product within 14 days after you received the item, and that the company must refund the money in total (with packing and shipping cost to you included). I am also quite certain that an online company cannot create his own refund policies that would limit these "14 days return policy" unless it is to the benefit of the customer (like 21 days return policy, for example, is alright while 7 days isn't). However, I might be refering to outdated sources.

If you want I can post the email he sent me refusing the return, and I'm not aware of such a law (14 days return) in California US . the timeline was something like (based on emails and paypaly history)

Order on Oct-3-12
Tre Acknowledging that the order was ignored Oct-10-10
Me actually getting the miniaturs sometime arounf Oct-10-13?
Me asking for a refund: Oct-26
Tre's flat out refusal (I guess this is the policy, which he is ashamed to put on his web site):




Hi <DODICULA>,

I am very sorry for the delay in my response. I will only accept
returns for items which are physically defective ( i.e. miscast. ) I
cannot accept returns for figures which do not fit with another
company's figures. I am sorry for any confusion but RBG is
purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered
using your RBG undead purchase as the start of a new collection of all
RBG figures?

Cheers,

Tre'

Hi Dodicula,

what was the text of you asking for a refund?

Also what was your order total and what did you buy? There's a bunch of us here who would be willing to buy your stuff from you.

 judgedoug wrote:
Hi Dodicula,

what was the text of you asking for a refund?

Also what was your order total and what did you buy? There's a bunch of us here who would be willing to buy your stuff from you.

My original request:
> Hi Tre, what is your return policy? I recently recieved an order of "lesser
> dead", and they are way too small to fit in with my Games Workshop Vampire
> Counts army

I originally bought 27 zombies and the necromancer dude for 70 dollars and change. I have painted the necromancer but the zombies are still unpainted (though there bases may not be all there anymore)

So metal ones? Did you get 'em during the metal clearance sale? Let us all know if you're willing to sell any ones you don't want.

They are Metal, Not sure if it was during the sale, I bought them and the Keeper for 70. sure I'm willing to sell all of it. You can PM me any offers.

Let's keep discussion of trades/sales out of the thread and within PM from here on out. Thanks.

dodicula wrote:

I am sorry for any confusion but RBG is
purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered
using your RBG undead purchase as the start of a new collection of all
RBG figures?

Cheers,

Tre'

If true, that's a bit of a lame response really. If I got something like that from any vendor, I'd be insulted. I'd also take it further and force my money back one way or another. But that's me...

The part about (not) fitting in with other ranges needs to be upfront and centre on the RBG site.

 scipio.au wrote:

dodicula wrote:

I am sorry for any confusion but RBG is
purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered
using your RBG undead purchase as the start of a new collection of all
RBG figures?

Cheers,

Tre'

If true, that's a bit of a lame response really. If I got something like that from any vendor, I'd be insulted. I'd also take it further and force my money back one way or another. But that's me...

The part about (not) fitting in with other ranges needs to be upfront and centre on the RBG site.

Do Wyrd and Privateer have such disclaimers?

Studio McVey?

Mantic? Spartan?

Sorry but I think asking for a refund because they are smaller than you expected is really lame...

just google: redbox games size comparison and you get a dozen pictures... if you are to lazy to do that then tough luck...

I have never ever saw a "brand" site have any comarison pictures, so why expect them from Tre???

You should try to get your money back for Lotr models because they dont scale to your space marines at the local GW... :p

and if based on the pictures on the site, i didnt think it was neccessary? As i mentioned before the pictures on tres site make the minis appear larger than they are. Second, i think he should post somewhere that he only accepts returns in case of miscasts. I wanted to return an unused product, that i was dissapointed with. thats pretty common in online business, no? You want to say buyer beware, ok fine, I guess thats just one more type of miniature maker I wont support, 70 bucks isnt gonna break me.

TheGrin wrote:
Sorry but I think asking for a refund because they are smaller than you expected is really lame...

In most European countries there is a law that regulades customers right to return an item regardless of what reason there is. Had this been in Sweden, dodicula would have had the law on his side if he wanted to return the items for a full refund simply because the miniatures won't fit his others. The only issue would be that the items/seal would be unbroken.

I did a quick google about RBG, and apparently there isn't any laws that regulade the customer's right to return an item in MS, USA. I didn't search very long, though, so I might be wrong. But from what I found out, it appears that Tre is doing nothing wrong when he refuses returns on other than his terms. But, as being ultimately responsible to ensure that all laws are followed, Tre would be smart if he reached out to agencies to make sure he got the laws on his side.

In the US, for the most part, 'All Sales are Final' is a valid return policy. The only real exception to that is if the item is defective, in this case a Miscast. Being a different scale would fall under 'Working as Intended' unless RBG was advertising the models are WHFB alternates.

 Cyporiean wrote:
In the US, for the most part, 'All Sales are Final' is a valid return policy. The only real exception to that is if the item is defective, in this case a Miscast. Being a different scale would fall under 'Working as Intended' unless RBG was advertising the models are WHFB alternates.

RBG isn't being advertised as proxies for other game systems, so I guess this return discussion is settled and Tre has the full right to only accept defected items in return.

In the end, I think it's not that big of a deal. As has already been pointed out, many places have a "No Returns" (except in the case of manufacturing defects, of course) policy in the US.

I'm actually quite surprised about the policy that apparently a lot of European countries have! It never occurred to me, for instance, to try to return the Scourge that I got for Dropzone Commander directly to Hawk Wargames (in the UK) just because I changed my mind about what faction I wanted to play once seeing them in-person.

Rather, I sold the Scourge on Ebay to recoup most of my investment, and then bought the Shaltari that I wanted direct from Hawk Wargames.

Cyporiean did an exchange for me at On The Lamb games for Brushfire, but it was completely "out of the goodness of her heart" as far as I was concerned (of course it was months after the sale, too, but I would have felt similarly even closer to the sale date).

So, basically, Tre is well within his rights here, in the US, not to accept returns for what we call "buyer remorse". Particularly, first party sales (not through a distributor) don't usually offer these afaik. It's one reason why folks buy through 3rd party places like The Warstore- the return policy is very, very good.

But to expect a one-man show who is both sculpting, packing, shipping, and doing customer service to be able to have the same policies as a company who Only fulfills orders is asking a bit much imo.

Tre seems very reasonable and I have a feeling he would work with customers who really talked to him about it. He mentioned threats in the emails and while we don't have them all here, it could be that there was some language in there that made him respond as he did.

Long and short of it is, he's well within his rights to have this policy in the US, and from what I've seen he's an honest and nice chap, so it does not put me off too much. I also have a feeling he'd be much more open to exchanges than returns, as many companies in the US are.

Admittedly this is a bit off topic but probably deserves to be added here due to the prevaling comversation

In the UK it's ONLY internet sales that benefit from the 7 day 'I've changed my mind' law (probably introduced to increase customer confidence in e-commerce generally)

This is because buyers haven't actually had a proper chance to examine an item until they get it in their hands on it (which they could have done if they'd bought it in a traditional shop).

Back on topic

Can't wait to get my Helsvakt Horde and start rampaging

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Can't wait to get my Helsvakt Horde and start rampaging

Yeah, I agree. The previews of the Helsvakt are amazing! And if I ever assemble my units, the army will look absolutely stunning I am sure.

But now I am kinda eager to see the goblins and what Tre is cooking for us for his next KS.

 RiTides wrote:
In the end, I think it's not that big of a deal. As has already been pointed out, many places have a "No Returns" (except in the case of manufacturing defects, of course) policy in the US.

I'm actually quite surprised about the policy that apparently a lot of European countries have! It never occurred to me, for instance, to try to return the Scourge that I got for Dropzone Commander directly to Hawk Wargames (in the UK) just because I changed my mind about what faction I wanted to play once seeing them in-person.

Rather, I sold the Scourge on Ebay to recoup most of my investment, and then bought the Shaltari that I wanted direct from Hawk Wargames.

Cyporiean did an exchange for me at On The Lamb games for Brushfire, but it was completely "out of the goodness of her heart" as far as I was concerned (of course it was months after the sale, too, but I would have felt similarly even closer to the sale date).

So, basically, Tre is well within his rights here, in the US, not to accept returns for what we call "buyer remorse". Particularly, first party sales (not through a distributor) don't usually offer these afaik. It's one reason why folks buy through 3rd party places like The Warstore- the return policy is very, very good.

But to expect a one-man show who is both sculpting, packing, shipping, and doing customer service to be able to have the same policies as a company who Only fulfills orders is asking a bit much imo.

Tre seems very reasonable and I have a feeling he would work with customers who really talked to him about it. He mentioned threats in the emails and while we don't have them all here, it could be that there was some language in there that made him respond as he did.

Long and short of it is, he's well within his rights to have this policy in the US, and from what I've seen he's an honest and nice chap, so it does not put me off too much. I also have a feeling he'd be much more open to exchanges than returns, as many companies in the US are.

As I said its not a big deal for me, the reason I chimed in (and may continue to do so) is because everyone keeps crowing about what a great guy Tre is and his customer service, and Tre himself commented in this very thread that he treats every customer as a friend.
I know if a friend of mine felt that I cheated him out of 70 dollars (even though for most people I know its not a huge amount of money), I would do everything in my power to set things right. Not put snarky comments about starting a whole collection, when you feel ripped off about the initial investment. I would hope any one I truly call "friend" would do the same.

"But to expect a one-man show who is both sculpting, packing, shipping, and doing customer service to be able to have the same policies as a company who Only fulfills orders is asking a bit much imo."- I disagree, here's privateers return policy :
http://store.privateerpress.com/returnpolicy.aspx, is 3 sentences really that hard to write, even for a one business, posting three sentence on a plain web page is not a big deal.

Tre seems very reasonable and I have a feeling he would work with customers who really talked to him about it- The email I posted above is EXACTLY what I wrote him to:

My original request:

Hi Tre, what is your return policy? I recently recieved an order of "lesser
dead", and they are way too small to fit in with my Games Workshop Vampire
Counts army

No more no less (nothing except name and sig was ommited or skipped, no other emails/requests were sent until his response), his response was EXACTLY the email posted above.
His response was as follows (again nothing was ommited from email body)

I am very sorry for the delay in my response. I will only accept
returns for items which are physically defective ( i.e. miscast. ) I
cannot accept returns for figures which do not fit with another
company's figures. I am sorry for any confusion but RBG is
purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered
using your RBG undead purchase as the start of a new collection of all
RBG figures?

It was the last sentence that really made me angry, as to me it meant, "don't like our product? Just shut up and buy more" I responded with the following, it is not meant as a threat, but I feel his site misinforms people, and I told him that I will be taking steps to correct this misinformation:

Unfortunately, I have a fully painted army which I was hoping to replace the zombies in. Note I am not specifically looking for GW compatible (as I have reaper and Malifaux minis in my army) but I (I believe reasonably) assumed the minis were at least 25mm scale, and I must say I feel somewhat decieved. i.e. if they are purposely not 25mm, perhaps you should post the scale (they look 20mm to me in person) on the site somewhere? If you cannot do this, then I feel my only recourse is to post everywhere I can to warn people about this, and launching a dispute with paypal.

Again no ommissions or redactions.

Also note, I was forthright and polite from the very beginning with Tre, and there was no angry tirades at any time during our exchanges. That is not my style, and if there is any hyperbole or sarcasm/unwelcome witt, it is from Tre, not me (both earlier in this thread and in our email exchange)
Ultimately I chose not to launch a dispute because even though I would probably win (buyer almost always wins from what I hear) I felt it was unjust to take money from someone without agreement or an impartial judge. However, I feel I am well within my rights to tell people that my experience with Red-Box games was poor, and that the miniatures appear smaller than they seem, and tell people what his return policy is (as he will not do it himself) and may continue to do so.

dodicula wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
But to expect a one-man show who is both sculpting, packing, shipping, and doing customer service to be able to have the same policies as a company who Only fulfills orders is asking a bit much imo.

I disagree, here's privateers return policy :
http://store.privateerpress.com/returnpolicy.aspx, is 3 sentences really that hard to write, even for a one business, posting three sentence on a plain web page is not a big deal.

***snip***

Also note, I was forthright and polite from the very beginning with Tre, and there was no angry tirades at any time during our exchanges. That is not my style, and if there is any hyperbole or sarcasm/unwelcome witt, it is from Tre, not me (both earlier in this thread and in our email exchange)
Ultimately I did not launch a dispute because even though I would probably win (buyer almost always wins from what I hear) I felt it was unjust to take money from someone without agreement or an impartial judge. However, I feel I am well within my rights to tell people that my experience with Red-Box games was poor, and that the miniatures appear smaller than they seem, and tell people what his return policy is (as he will not do it himself) and may continue to do so.

You're missing the point about RiTides quote which is that it's likely a one man show over at Red Box Games.. which is decidedly not the case with your Privateer Press example (who make the second largest selling minis game on the market). While I agree that you were forthright in your reasons for a refund, that doesn't mean you should get one. RBG is not responsible for your assumptions about their products that are in no way stated or hinted at on their site. They don't make GW sized monster-handed exaggerated style scale figures nor do they claim to. They're not responsible for stuff you come up with on your own with your imagination nor should they have to pay a monetary price for it when they don't live up to what they never claimed.

I can buy a set of winged gargoyles from a company but that doesn't mean I deserve a refund when I let go of the mini and they don't fly. Baseless assumptions =/= valid reason for a refund.

I think that you are missing my point. That 3 sentences is pretty easy to write, even for a "one man shop". Also, if he is still too busy thats fine too, in this case I am helping him by posting his unwritten return policy in this thread and possibly future threads. I want people to know that tre has a no returns policy, and it will ultimately help him avoid customer dissapointment.

OTOH, why should he? He's never specifically catered to the GW market.
Quite the opposite, actually. And really, pretty much every other game (excluding PP's stuff, though I've seen modified RBG zombies used in a cryx army as some kind of thralls, I believe, to great effect!) and minis company at 28mm works in a style more like this.
Used to Reaper? well, many of their stuff will fit this better. Mantic? Dead on. Good ol' Rackham? I'm lead to believe they're more in this scale as well. Any 'old school' tabletop adventures mini company? more like these in scale.

Really, you're asking him to cater to, essentially, the exception in the market (remember, these things are meant primarily for RPGs, not wargames...) even though he makes no allusions to that exception himself?

I'd say having pics of minis next to a ruler up on the site is always good - I love that about Reaper, for example. But to say he should have that disclaimer? Really, screw that! it's based on a bogus assumption you'd better drop already.
GW is not the one and only gold standard for all minis ever and if it took you this much to discover that well, get out from under that rock

 warboss wrote:

dodicula wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
But to expect a one-man show who is both sculpting, packing, shipping, and doing customer service to be able to have the same policies as a company who Only fulfills orders is asking a bit much imo.

I disagree, here's privateers return policy :
http://store.privateerpress.com/returnpolicy.aspx, is 3 sentences really that hard to write, even for a one business, posting three sentence on a plain web page is not a big deal.

***snip***

Also note, I was forthright and polite from the very beginning with Tre, and there was no angry tirades at any time during our exchanges. That is not my style, and if there is any hyperbole or sarcasm/unwelcome witt, it is from Tre, not me (both earlier in this thread and in our email exchange)
Ultimately I did not launch a dispute because even though I would probably win (buyer almost always wins from what I hear) I felt it was unjust to take money from someone without agreement or an impartial judge. However, I feel I am well within my rights to tell people that my experience with Red-Box games was poor, and that the miniatures appear smaller than they seem, and tell people what his return policy is (as he will not do it himself) and may continue to do so.

You're missing the point about RiTides quote which is that it's likely a one man show over at Red Box Games.. which is decidedly not the case with your Privateer Press example (who make the second largest selling minis game on the market). While I agree that you were forthright in your reasons for a refund, that doesn't mean you should get one. RBG is not responsible for your assumptions about their products that are in no way stated or hinted at on their site. They don't make GW sized monster-handed exaggerated style scale figures nor do they claim to. They're not responsible for stuff you come up with on your own with your imagination nor should they have to pay a monetary price for it when they don't live up to what they never claimed.

I can buy a set of winged gargoyles from a company but that doesn't mean I deserve a refund when I let go of the mini and they don't fly. Baseless assumptions =/= valid reason for a refund.

Its not unreasonable to have a refund policy on an item I can't see before buying. Its not unreasonable for me to expect miniatures to be the size shown on the site (I have bought miniatures from many many manufacturers and have NEVER had this problem before). If you read through the thread there were other people who did not expect tres miniatures to be so small either. I am not expecting my zombies to "fly" or "rise from the dead" I am expecting them to be broadly compatible with my miniatures which come from GW, Malifaux, Privateer Press, Rackham, Reaper and probably a few companies I am forgetting).

Again, in the end I accepted his no refunds policy (I did not dispute the transaction), he has a right to do it under law (I supposes). I do have a right however, to a) publicize Red-Box-Games no-refunds policy, b) to relate to others my experience dealing with Red-Box-Games c) to tell people that in my opinion Tre does not portray his undead minis accurately.

I agree with you that any company should post their refund/return policy for viewing, and I also believe you have a right to express your opinion about your transaction.

But honestly I must disagree about the undead; his undead are portrayed pretty accurately. They're emaciated 28mm figures; skin stretched over bones.

In general, Tre's figures are perfectly sized as true 28mm figures - such as Lord of the Rings, which is also true 28mm:
http://azazelx.wordpress.com/2011/08/20/red-box-games-size-comparisons-with-gw-lord-of-the-rings-figures/
http://richmondwarmancers.blogspot.com/2012/12/january-releases-and-red-box-games.html

It is not unreasonable to assume pictures of miniatures on websites aren't actual size as they will vary with monitor size, may have been zoomed to show detail, forshortened due to optical effect from the nagle the photo was taken, etc, etc ad nauseam. Assuming something is a particular size without research is going to lead to disappointment. It's not like in the age of the Internet you can't send the vendor an email (at no cost) to confirm size erc to make sure a purchase fits your project.