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 Dunklezahn wrote:
Guardians viable en masse? You're obviously reading different rumors to me.

Guardians being BS4 is largely irrelevant if that 40k apoc post is accurate as it would appear they kept their pistol range firearms. The statistically average move and charge is 13", i hope the fluff references the fact Guardians are never issued more than a single magazine because in battle none of them ever live long enough to fire twice....

Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.

Shame if the Falcon is still an HS choice. Seeing as we haven't got this new transport that was rumoured (there would be a model out if we had) the Falcon would have been an ideal choice for a dedicated transport, giving more option for small aspect squads and freeing up the crowded HS slot at the same time.

 Capamaru wrote:
Well three glances still kill you so you aren't greatly postponing the inevitable...Not being able to assault out of it still makes it crap.

If I can go 18", get a 3+ cover save, reduce penetrating hits down to glances, still fire my weapon and next turn leap out with dire avengers or whatnot and shoot then I'll be happy.

This codex does seem to have a worrying number of good HS choices! Fire Prisms have got a boost, Dark Reapers have got a boost, War Walkers now have an invulnerable save I believe (should be fast attack damn it) and then there's the Wraithlord and Wraithknight!

For a race that supposedly relies on speed I hope the Fast Attack options are better, Vypers have got a slight boost, I hope Hawks have got a significant boost.

I'm guessing that the Eldar are still going to be fighting bitterly over what to use their HS slots on? Are War Walkers Heavy Support?

They have been so far.

Our HS is something like this

Fire Prism
Falcon
War Walkers
Dark Reapers
Support weapon platforms
Wraithlord
Wraithknight
Night Spinner

and for those of us with FW

Warp Hunters
Phoenix Bomber.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm guessing that the Eldar are still going to be fighting bitterly over what to use their HS slots on? Are War Walkers Heavy Support?

Yeah they are and in total, I believe we now have 8 HS choices with most of them looking really good.

The race is on!

Iranna.

Guardians abused to hell?

You planning on swinging the arse end of your 115pt Serpent toward the enemy are you? Their guns have a 12" range, your "90pt" Guardians (who are really 200+pts after Serpent) are going to get out, fire 1 shot that kills 3-4 marines assuming no cover and then explode into a pile of gore because they are point blank and made of paper.

Good luck spamming those Iranna, if you bring your entire troop contingent to bear you may even kill a whole tactical squad before your entire scoring force is wiped out.

Staying 12" range makes guardians just as worthless as they are now.

Putting Guardians in a transport does seem a waste, I'd use Dire Avengers in that situation. I'm still not sure where I'd use Guardians, any improvements they've got...have also gone to Dire Avengers.

tedurur wrote:

Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.

At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.

The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.

Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.

Uhh... War Walkers really should be Fast Attack...

About the above.. oh must be totally impossible getting to shoot at anything with guardians... so the dire avengers can get to shoot at the marines then? Makes perfect sence. I guess I'll go buy avengers instead then since guardians wont EVER reach shooting range at anything..

 Gravity wrote:
About the above.. oh must be totally impossible getting to shoot at anything with guardians... so the dire avengers can get to shoot at the marines then? Makes perfect sence. I guess I'll go buy avengers instead then since guardians wont EVER reach shooting range at anything..

And now, luckily, Dire avengers are double the price they were - this is great news!

It's not impossible, it's just far harder. You need an expensive transport to get them there. On foot they have worse armour and shorter range.

Couple that with Exarch + powers as well. Maybe Warlocks will boost them more this time though.

The Avengers with armour that works against basic weapon fire and with a 50% greater range than their Guardian colleagues, yes. The Guardians who can get danced by Shoota Boyz who cost 2/3 less per head? No.

On a very good day if you try and jam massed Guardians down your enemies throat (Which is so fluff destroying as to cause me physical pain) you may get a single shot.

A model with a 24" range rapid fire is going to get 3-4 shots on you before you get your first one (1-2 at long range and a double tap) Avengers will take 1-2 depending on their run roll and will definitely fire before the double tap.

Why is it fluff destroying when the fluff says Eldar is desperate and arms regular citizens with guns to fight? I can't see the fluff destruction fielding many guardians.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.

At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.

The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.

Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.

What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

Do we know for definate that shurikens are still 12" and 18" for Avengers?

If so, despite the run shoot thing and the ap2, it is a missed opportunity.

Hell I would have taken increased range over the run & shoot and maybe even the ap2 (definately over the rumoured ws/bs increase).

A major factor that many people are forgetting about Guardians is that with a Shrouding Warlock, terrain, and a Scatter Laser they are actually tough enough to take a few hits and can reliably lay the hurt down on an opponent. Normal move, +run, -and- then shoot. Twin-linking shurikens with BS4 on a single Scatter Laser hit and AP2 on a 6 to wound. While not perfect (nothing ever is) I am happy with the buffs given to them.

Out of everything that I have seen the only thing that worries me are banshees. Wraithblades seem to have taken their job and seem to do it infinitely better, but that is solely due to being tough (which is the defining characteristic of a close-combat unit in 6th edition).

Also, has anyone else considered the "Falcon-Punch" yet? Flat outing a Falcon with Guide and Crystal Targeting Matrix on it behind a Leman Russ (or other suitably expensive tank) turn one or two in order to destroy it and completely throw the opponents plans into disarray. It would admittedly be a bit of an expensive gimmick, but the psychological effect would be priceless. With Holo-Fields the Falcon will have a 3+ cover save to boot.

All in all color me extremely excited. Very few true nerfs and many, many, many more buffs all said.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

Also if Rangers have been nerfed (can only be made Pathfinders by the new character?) then Guardians may be better backfield objective holders in comparison. Despite their lack of range they have the heavy weapon plus Warlock buffing.

Fielding Guardians is fine, that's in line with the fluff, they make up most of the Eldar fighting force. Giving them assault pistols, bad armour and making kamikazi runs their go-to tactic is the problem.

They are a desperate and dying race who give the vast majority of their troops a weapon they need to run headlong through several volleys of weapon fire before they can even fire it... They have to be close enough to be set on fire to shoot. Eldar advanced technology seems to equate in GW's mind to "short weapon range". It's no wonder the DE developed Splinter tech if Catapults are what they had to hand.

If you have a precious resource like Eldar lives and you are forced to use them in battle without much training you keep them back from the thick of the fighting to support, not in front of your actual armoured trained soldiers like a meat shield.

Frankly I'm starting to miss the days they could get Lasguns...

Why not deploy them defensively, as in behind breat-works/Aegis Defense Lines?

It appears this may be their role now. I can see them being used in heavy terrain and with a warlock backing them up and the potential for two weapon-platforms, it would seem they would be best in defense as I can hardly imagine why or how they could be used offensively.

One thing that I've not seen mentioned in depth is the autarch.

I an on playing a reserve/flyer heavy list, with some swooping hawks. The reserve rolls will remain important, but does anyone know anything about the rumour of making an aspect into troops? Non scattering hawks as troops would be awesome. Anyone got anything for me?

 ThirdUltra wrote:
Why not deploy them defensively, as in behind breat-works/Aegis Defense Lines?

When would they be able to fire? Every basic troop out ranges them! They'd just be a meat shield for the weapon platform.

I doubt we are going to see much of 20 man guardian blobs in competitive except for maybe one blob that could advance as a "you either shoot us or we wreck your " unit. Truth is now we have too many juicy options now that just makes 180 points seem less tantalizing, but I like my units to fly or be in the backfield with some gusto!

Is it jsut me or did anyone else notice the veil of tears buff? 2d6 x2? That is only a 24" max range of hitting! I am also going to experiment adding a farseer with the laughing mantle to the squad to make it one hard as hell to hit unit...till yo get into combat that is

tedurur wrote:
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.

Your maths is *way* off.

10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:

10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills

A BS4 Scatter laser will score:

4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills

That tells quite a different story.

We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.

Belly wrote:
One thing that I've not seen mentioned in depth is the autarch.

I an on playing a reserve/flyer heavy list, with some swooping hawks. The reserve rolls will remain important, but does anyone know anything about the rumour of making an aspect into troops? Non scattering hawks as troops would be awesome. Anyone got anything for me?

I think that was just a rumour, it seems quite unfluffy to me. I don't think Eldar really prioritize aspects like that.

GTKA666 wrote:
I doubt we are going to see much of 20 man guardian blobs in competitive except for maybe one blob that could advance as a "you either shoot us or we wreck your " unit. Truth is now we have too many juicy options now that just makes 180 points seem less tantalizing, but I like my units to fly or be in the backfield with some gusto!

Is it jsut me or did anyone else notice the veil of tears buff? 2d6 x2? That is only a 24" max range of hitting! I am also going to experiment adding a farseer with the laughing mantle to the squad to make it one hard as hell to hit unit...till yo get into combat that is

The mantel removes IC so you can stick him into a squad...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dunklezahn wrote:

tedurur wrote:
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.

Your maths is *way* off.

10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:

10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills

A BS4 Scatter laser will score:

4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills

That tells quite a different story.

We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.

Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.

Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....

But anyway, enough with that. Lets focus on more fun things

The haywire lance and the haywire laser weapons don't have the haywire USR?

Edit: Gotcha, they're actually the laser lance and scatter laser, nevermind.

I really like the idea of using an Avatar with the Crushing Blow and Fire Hail exarch powers. With Fleet and Battle Trance, he can really sprint down the table now, popping off a couple BS10 melta shots here and there. But this is assuming he's still an MC, and I don't see that in his rules?

OMFG... not only did Reapers get a massive buff, they can also be taken in ten man squads!!!

According to the rumour.