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 Vaktathi wrote:
I've had the book for about 8 hours now, I'm surprised at how closely this update resembles Kelly's update of CSM's. The do-take units and don't-take units are largely the same with a couple exceptions and there's one or two very powerful new units.

HuH?

does not compute

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've had the book for about 8 hours now, I'm surprised at how closely this update resembles Kelly's update of CSM's. The do-take units and don't-take units are largely the same with a couple exceptions and there's one or two very powerful new units.

Noone honestly ever expects something innovative or non-spammy from Phil Kelly. I'd be surprised if it didn't follow in the shoes of Long-Fang-Venom-Heldrake-spam like a charm.

At least the new models are nice.

Raesvelg wrote:


I'd say no. Focused Witchfire just means that if you fail to roll low enough on the test, (5 or less, iirc), then the target is randomly chosen within the squad. Doesn't affect the whole unit.

Which is why it is a kinda crap power. You're risking dropping your Farseer's stats, and can't still reliably hit characters. Might be good against solo monstrous creatures though.

Crimson - Seems that way i guess.
Against nids its pretty nasty as most of the MC's are not synapse, so have gak LD.

Silly question, but i dont have the book and have not seen any scans, but do eldar have any way of dropping LD?
If so, then its even better.
Used to rely on my nids dropping units LD and then bombing them with tests, or using it on a combat unit before hitting it with boneswords.

Yes, but it's a warlock psychic power. Drops leadership by 3.

Seems pretty useful to me then.
If mind war works roughly the same, your at an instant +3 against anyone you use it on.

So against a LD6-7 MC, your doing 3-4 wounds as standard, with an extra 3 from the drop.

I allways liked mind war, was a gamble some times, but usually paid off in the end.

Theorius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've had the book for about 8 hours now, I'm surprised at how closely this update resembles Kelly's update of CSM's. The do-take units and don't-take units are largely the same with a couple exceptions and there's one or two very powerful new units.

HuH?

does not compute

what I mean is, the units that were really good under the old codex are largely still really good now, the units that were bad under the old codex still largely remain bad now, and internal balance is largely non-existent.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've had the book for about 8 hours now, I'm surprised at how closely this update resembles Kelly's update of CSM's. The do-take units and don't-take units are largely the same with a couple exceptions and there's one or two very powerful new units.

Noone honestly ever expects something innovative or non-spammy from Phil Kelly. I'd be surprised if it didn't follow in the shoes of Long-Fang-Venom-Heldrake-spam like a charm.

At least the new models are nice.

Eh, perhaps true. I was very surprised he was the one chosen to re-do Eldar, they usually don't have the same person update their own book.

To be honest, PK has a weird record on these things. His 4E eldar update, while having its own very noticeable issues, did shake up the Eldar some. His 4E Orks completely breathed new life into that faction, as did his DE (though admittedly, the models did have a *ton* to do with that as well), but on the other hand his SW's (while greatly expanding the SW playerbase) turned them into a very cookie-cutter gunline or multiwound beast assault army, and his CSM book can largely be described as a 4.5E book.


Some of the stuff they left hanging seems plainly obvious as "why didn't you do something more with that?" or just plain lazy (like making Guardians WS4/BS4 I5 which solves none of their problems and just contributes to general stat inflation instead of having them become a really useful battlefield artillery unit where all those artisans/technicians/craftsmen can put their skills to work), something I feel really reinforces my view of the CSM book having largely been a phoned in last-minute update meant for 5E.

That's assuming that you actually roll the power for at least one Warlock, he starts the turn in range (it's a Malediction), actually pulls off the cast (LD8) and the opponent doesn't pass Deny the Witch. Then you can boost your Mind War chances.

The material I got on hand doesn't specify what Illic's 2 entries do:

Walker of the HIdden Path and Voidbringer.

Can anyone tell me what those 2 are about? Illic's one of the few things from the update that's potentially interesting for me as a Dark Eldar player looking for Allied support.

 Jackal wrote:
Crimson - Seems that way i guess.
Against nids its pretty nasty as most of the MC's are not synapse, so have gak LD.

Silly question, but i dont have the book and have not seen any scans, but do eldar have any way of dropping LD?
If so, then its even better.
Used to rely on my nids dropping units LD and then bombing them with tests, or using it on a combat unit before hitting it with boneswords.

Er what? The two most common Nid MCs that form the basis for all competitive Nids armies (and make them one of the top armies around) are both Synapse MCs, and Ld10 psykers to boot.

Most of the nids MC's are not synapse, was quite clear right?
Didnt say anything about common ones.

Tyrant and tervi are synapse.
Fex, trygon, mawloc, tyranno, harpy, spore.

Missed anything from the list?

 Alkasyn wrote:
The material I got on hand doesn't specify what Illic's 2 entries do:

Walker of the HIdden Path and Voidbringer.

Can anyone tell me what those 2 are about? Illic's one of the few things from the update that's potentially interesting for me as a Dark Eldar player looking for Allied support.

Voidbringer is his special sniper rifle and Walker of the hidden path allows Illic to infiltrate without having to care about enemy proximity AND let's him deep strike in a unit of pathfinders next to him IIRC

 Jackal wrote:
Most of the nids MC's are not synapse, was quite clear right?
Didnt say anything about common ones.

Tyrant and tervi are synapse.
Fex, trygon, mawloc, tyranno, harpy, spore.

Missed anything from the list?

Trygon prime is a synapse, right?

Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Trygon prime is a synapse, right?

Yes, with an upgrade.
Not as standard though.

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Remember they haven't FAQ'ed Tzeentch chariots into usefulness yet (unless you consider stationary chariots with short-range weaponry useful). I wouldn't hold out for a quick fix.

 Shandara wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Remember they haven't FAQ'ed Tzeentch chariots into usefulness yet (unless you consider stationary chariots with short-range weaponry useful). I wouldn't hold out for a quick fix.

I wonder if GW is even aware of this big gaping hole in the rules of the star of their new release. Maybe people should notify them.

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

I somewhat agree. To me the sword option is obviously terrible; you are shelling out a good number of points to have only shoulder guns. For example, 2 shoulder lances, sword, and shield gets you that 5++ and lets you fire all your guns but costs way too much. The suncannon + shield, possibly including scatter laser for twin linking, costs a huge amount as well and in the end you're really just getting a weakish executioner. The heavy dcannons are pretty cool with the long range, and people consider tyrannofexes to be alright for a similar gun load out, so I favor that setup. You end up with 2 good long range guns for a bit too many points, but you have toughness 8 and 6 wounds so odds are you are going to stick around the whole game and can easily get linebreaker or an objective in the end game which the jump pack helps with.

My current comparison in the heavy slot would be stock 240p wraithknight vs 165p wraithlord with dual lances and swords. Their firepower is surprisingly similar, their close combat ability also fairly similar, but the wraithlord has twice as many wounds and is more maneuverable. Looking at it from this point of view I could see the wraithknight being worth it from an objective taking/game winning point of view, it is very tough.

EDIT: wraithknight has more wounds, not wraithlord. der

 ph34r wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

I somewhat agree. To me the sword option is obviously terrible; you are shelling out a good number of points to have only shoulder guns. For example, 2 shoulder lances, sword, and shield gets you that 5++ and lets you fire all your guns but costs way too much. The suncannon + shield, possibly including scatter laser for twin linking, costs a huge amount as well and in the end you're really just getting a weakish executioner. The heavy dcannons are pretty cool with the long range, and people consider tyrannofexes to be alright for a similar gun load out, so I favor that setup. You end up with 2 good long range guns for a bit too many points, but you have toughness 8 and 6 wounds so odds are you are going to stick around the whole game and can easily get linebreaker or an objective in the end game which the jump pack helps with.

My current comparison in the heavy slot would be stock 240p wraithknight vs 165p wraithlord with dual lances and swords. Their firepower is surprisingly similar, their close combat ability also fairly similar, but the wraithlord has twice as many wounds and is more maneuverable. Looking at it from this point of view I could see the wraithknight being worth it from an objective taking/game winning point of view, it is very tough.

Even the Heavy Wraithcannon is a bit..meh as the Distort rules are almost entirely wasted on something of that Strength anyway. I wonder whether the special blinding rule of the scattershield is going to realistically make any difference. If it were in the middle of a melee, I guess it could be like the giant disco ball and blind all the enemy while most of the Eldar would pass their tests and remain unblinded.

On a different note, is it me or do the monofilament weapons suddenly make decent anti light vehicle weapons now since most vehicles lack Initiative, it is effectively S7 all the time against them.

Is anyone else disappointed that Shining Spears no longer have the option to take a shuriken catapult?

 warpspider89 wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that Shining Spears no longer have the option to take a shuriken catapult?

They do. They have Eldar Jetbikes and those are listed as having a twin linked catapult as standard.

On the Wraith Knight - can you have sword and shield on one arm and long gun on the other - as I think that would look cool

 Mr Morden wrote:
On the Wraith Knight - can you have sword and shield on one arm and long gun on the other - as I think that would look cool

No. The rules only allow sword + shield or suncannon + shield. No other combinations permitted that include sword or shield.

And reading Jes Goodwin's stuff in the WD about the Wraithknight and how the Eldar pilot is curled up in foetal position in the chest made me think...that head looks big enough for a curled up Eldar and it has a crystal dome (presumably of some hard Eldar material) so why not that instead of making it like the Riptide? An Eldar curled up in the head or in a lotus meditative position might have worked, and maybe then the chest wouldn't have had to be puffed outwards.

Ah well thanks for the info

So looks like the first list has been put up in the army list section. What lists are y'all thinking of running?

Iracundus wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

I somewhat agree. To me the sword option is obviously terrible; you are shelling out a good number of points to have only shoulder guns. For example, 2 shoulder lances, sword, and shield gets you that 5++ and lets you fire all your guns but costs way too much. The suncannon + shield, possibly including scatter laser for twin linking, costs a huge amount as well and in the end you're really just getting a weakish executioner. The heavy dcannons are pretty cool with the long range, and people consider tyrannofexes to be alright for a similar gun load out, so I favor that setup. You end up with 2 good long range guns for a bit too many points, but you have toughness 8 and 6 wounds so odds are you are going to stick around the whole game and can easily get linebreaker or an objective in the end game which the jump pack helps with.

My current comparison in the heavy slot would be stock 240p wraithknight vs 165p wraithlord with dual lances and swords. Their firepower is surprisingly similar, their close combat ability also fairly similar, but the wraithlord has twice as many wounds and is more maneuverable. Looking at it from this point of view I could see the wraithknight being worth it from an objective taking/game winning point of view, it is very tough.

Even the Heavy Wraithcannon is a bit..meh as the Distort rules are almost entirely wasted on something of that Strength anyway. I wonder whether the special blinding rule of the scattershield is going to realistically make any difference. If it were in the middle of a melee, I guess it could be like the giant disco ball and blind all the enemy while most of the Eldar would pass their tests and remain unblinded.

On a different note, is it me or do the monofilament weapons suddenly make decent anti light vehicle weapons now since most vehicles lack Initiative, it is effectively S7 all the time against them.

The naked loadout it reasonably well priced, the other loadouts not so much. The Sword/shield option should probably be base for about 200pts, and then pay to upgrade to the big guns.
Probably a better comparison would be 2 Prisms, since the S9 AP1 Lance Profile is much closer to the S10 AP2 Cannons the WK has. The Prisms work out as 10pts less, with similar durability but superior range and speed but lose the CC ability. The biggest thing that is making it an attractive option for me is that the HQ slot is so crowded, so being able to get units worth of firepower on a single unit is actually helpful (so I can still run 2 Nightspinners, that S8 pie plate against side armour is very nice).
Remember the Distort rules cause ID on 6's as well as the auto pen rule, which means MCs have to hug cover near you or risk being zapped from across the board.

Jackal wrote:Most of the nids MC's are not synapse, was quite clear right?
Didnt say anything about common ones.

Tyrant and tervi are synapse.
Fex, trygon, mawloc, tyranno, harpy, spore.

Missed anything from the list?

People run Harpies and Mawlocs in your area? Every single Nid army I have faced since 6th edition dropped has been running at least 1 Flyrant and at least 2 Tervigons. I've seen the occasional Dakkafex and a couple of Trygons (once was only because the guy hadn't finished assembling his 3rd Tervigon), haven't seen Mawlocs since about a month or two after the codex was released (when people realised that they were terrible) and I have literally never seen a Harpy.

 Enigma wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The material I got on hand doesn't specify what Illic's 2 entries do:

Walker of the HIdden Path and Voidbringer.

Can anyone tell me what those 2 are about? Illic's one of the few things from the update that's potentially interesting for me as a Dark Eldar player looking for Allied support.

Voidbringer is his special sniper rifle and Walker of the hidden path allows Illic to infiltrate without having to care about enemy proximity AND let's him deep strike in a unit of pathfinders next to him IIRC

Thanks, sounds neat.

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

It's not completely useless as it gives you more options. It might be a pricey option but it's not a "big gaping hole in the rules of the star of their new release" though.

 Minx wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

It's not completely useless as it gives you more options. It might be a pricey option but it's not a "big gaping hole in the rules of the star of their new release" though.

Of course it's a gaping hole.

If you put a scatter laser on a 2 Heavy Wraithcannon loadout for example, you can either fire both Wraithcannons and score on average 4/3 or 1.33 hits with them. If you fire a scatter laser and a wraithcannon, you will score on average 8/3 or 2.66 hits with the scatter laser and twin link 1 wraithcannon which will then score 0.9 hits. If you are firing at infantry targets, the wraithcannon is overkill. If you want to hit heavily armored targets or monstrous creatures, you'd do better firing both wraithcannons to get the higher number of hits, in which case you are wasting points on a scatter laser that is not being used. You pay for the option of being worse. And if it is just 2 shoulder weapons you are aiming to fire, there are far cheaper ways to get 2 heavy weapons.

As it is I see 2 viable loadouts: Suncannon + shield and 1 scatter laser, or the basic 2 heavy wraithcannons.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I was very surprised he was the one chosen to re-do Eldar, they usually don't have the same person update their own book.

So was I.

Especially as I seem to recall some interview or blog post or forum post some time back where people bugged Phil Kelly about the Eldar Codex and he flat-out denied it, saying something along the lines of "I don't want to be the "Eldar-Guy"".

May have all been made up though and I cannot recover the actual source.

Maybe it's like last time, where he wrote it and then someone else re-wrote it without his knowledge?