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I currently collect ba and play games with a group of 3 mates. the play orcs, space wolves and .. daemons.
Unfortunately since the new 6th edition rules and that white dwarf update, flamers have become well.. stupidly good.

my mate runs a list which includes 27 flamers, how exactly do i deal with them.
He is currently flaming me to death, I have two storm-ravens, 10 assault terminators with storm shields, 10 death company and i still cant win :(
How to i get past the fact he can deep-strike and flame me to death... they have two wounds and a 5 plus invulnerable save.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
thanks.
Oh p.s assault is horrible d3 hits as over-watch.

Allied Grey Knights detachment

Coteaz
Purifiers Pysbolt Ammo
4x Pyscannons
6x Swords
Strike Squad
4x Swords
1x Pyscannon

490pts

Coteaz goes with purifiers and grabs divination powers and gives purifiers prescience

Strike Squad uses Warp Quake to cause auto mishaps

Coteaz allows purifiers to take an out of sequence shooting attack at enemies arriving from reserve within 12" of him and in LOS.

Should clear up the flamer problem fast

I appreciateyour help, but i don't feel that would be enough, they would get obliterated, as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell. and it is so difficult to get through 27 ( 3 suads of 9) flamers with 2 wounds and 5+ invunerable. Furthermore they are only 23 or 26 points a model, it doesn't make any sense. They can kill any vehicle due to hull points, are ap1 or 2 templates with no armour or cover saves aloud and wound on 4+, How is an orc nob 20 points (i think) and a flamer 23, they are ridiculously under priced.

 samuele999 wrote:
I appreciateyour help, but i don't feel that would be enough, they would get obliterated, as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell. and it is so difficult to get through 27 ( 3 suads of 9) flamers with 2 wounds and 5+ invunerable. Furthermore they are only 23 or 26 points a model, it doesn't make any sense. They can kill any vehicle due to hull points, are ap1 or 2 templates with no armour or cover saves aloud and wound on 4+, How is an orc nob 20 points (i think) and a flamer 23, they are ridiculously under priced.

Seriously, consider a grey knights allied detachment. Grey Knights are daemon-bane incarnate on the tabletop. Or, use as many long ranged weapons as possible (lascannons rule, dreadnoughts with 2 tl autocannons would probably help as well, additionally, sniper rifle scouts might prove useful en-masse)

i considered them, but flamers kill them to easily, any tank or amour-ed vehicle is a gonna. literally hordes are the only thing that can stop them. P.s they deeeep strike so long range just fails, in addition they only need to deep strike within 8 inches and your vehicle or men are dead meat. Can you explain how grey knights work against them. cause as far as i can tell, flamers could practically kill any greyknights unit. grey knights are too expensive to be considered a good option, there nice 3 or 2+ amour save is just a waste of points.

 BraveRifles wrote:


Coteaz goes with purifiers and grabs divination powers and gives purifiers prescience

Strike Squad uses Warp Quake to cause auto mishaps

Coteaz allows purifiers to take an out of sequence shooting attack at enemies arriving from reserve within 12" of him and in LOS.

Should clear up the flamer problem fast

This^^^

Flame them back? I don't know. I have not faced a list like that. I will say that a drop pod of flamer vets could be exciting....

 samuele999 wrote:
I as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell.

Then I believe he is cheating. If I am correct you cannot move after deep strike.

Sorry what i meant to state is that, he deep-strikes them 18 inches away and as you cant kill 27 flamers (he uses nurglings for the other half) in one turn, he then moves 12 inches and can flame up to 8 inches, so you are dead meat. Storm-ravens don't work as he just sits beneath it ,as it must move 18 inches and can only turn 90 degrees. or if it hovers it gets flammed to death next turn. and veterans might work, but if you don't kill all 9 models, 2 flamers will kill all of your guys.


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Could you work out how many wounds that would cause and then how many models that would kill, they have 2 wounds are toughness 4 and have 5+ inv, brave rifles.
plus then there is the other 2 squads who would wipe you out in 1 turn, that's 490 pts for 23 or 26 x9 pts so 230at max?

I think your problem probably relies in your tactics.
The Grey Knight unit mentioned should help deal with them accordingly...
Also, another option you may want to consider is taking 10 man cultists squads...that is if you do end up taking Coteaz. You can use these squads to screen your Assault Squads, Termies, DC etc. You can charge these smaller squads absorbing the overwatch from the flamers and follow up with a hard strike. This works better if you ally with SW and take Wolves.

Look into Baal Preds, they are worth their points usually, and they put out a large amount of shots, plus if you play them they would help against Hoard, and Crons.

Just a Couple of ideas.

 samuele999 wrote:

He is currently flaming me to death, I have two storm-ravens, 10 assault terminators with storm shields, 10 death company and i still cant win :(
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

More boots, lets shiny special boots?
The more boots you have on the ground, the less of a problem losing them are as they cost less. Quick look at the old CSM codex (troops)- I could take 23ppm plague marines/1k sons, I can take 21ppm bezerkers, 20ppm(?) noise marines, or 15ppm plain CSM. Sure plague marines are tougher, but I will have less boots on the ground- tougher boots, but less of them. And flamers that wound on a 4+ don't care about T5. What they DO care about, is the fact they have a 5++ and no better save. You need mo' guns. Not elite guns, not elite melee units- you need mo' guns. Massed fire will take them out. They are jumppack marines with a 5++ save. Hurricane bolters+TL Asscannon on the stormravens should tear chunks out of the squad, especially if you can fire within 12"

I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

The Strike squad can also cast wasp wake with make all deep strike unit mishap if they arrive within 12" (after scatter) of the unit so try as he may one of the demon squad deploy at 18" gonna mishap and got kill first turn he come in. He also can't move after deep strike so just run up and peper spray him with storm bolter + psycannon (24" range) then charge. Remember to take some cheap unit to be overwatch diversion though since even grey knight unit doesn't fare well with 4-5 d3 ap3 flamer overwatch

That's a good point i think ill get some grey knight allies! so strike squads all the way, maybe supported by my famous reclusiarch death company 50 re roll to hit re roll to wound attacks?

If he's got 27 flamers in the army, that's 621 points spread into deep-striking units of 9. Based on what you've said about his Nurglings, it sounds like his army is very much a one-trick pony based around his Flamers, and you can take advantage of this.

What you need to do in situations like this is spread out. Have a shooty core, such as a couple of rifleman dreadnoughts or a Devastator squad, then spread out tactical squads to surround these. Take full advantage of your 2" coherency and deploy your tactical marines in a zigzag pattern, leaving a gap of around 4-5" between your shooty core and their bubblewrap.

This way, he won't be able to fry more than maybe three or four marines unless he's placed more or less perfectly, and he's risking mishaps if he tries to squeeze in the gap between your units - if you place it well, he shouldn't be able to fit those 9-man units in the gap at all without mishapping.

The Coteaz squad suggested would make an excellent centerpoint for this as well, making it near impossible for him to set up within 12" of that unit and therefore essentially impossible to be within around 24" of your main shooty units at deployment.

Remember that if he's deep striking outside of flaming range, you've got the first round of fire before he can start trying to hurt you. Also, he has to stay in coherency and depending on the Run roll (if he even uses this) he may be exceptionally vulnerable to Blast fire and templates of your own.

If you don't like the idea of the Grey Knight allies but don't mind allies in general, try Imperial Guard. Take a cheap HQ and a Platoon with 30 or so meatshields, a couple of Special Weapon squads with flamers so you can use his trick against him, and a couple of Heavy Weapon squads with Mortars to really ruin his day. With 30 men set up to take full advantage of coherency, it'll be practically impossible for his flamers to chew their way through before your sheer weight of fire takes them out.

For what it's worth, from what you've mentioned, the Death Company are going to be exceptionally poor against the Flamer list. The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

One of my friends does something very similar. Flamers really are too damn good with this update.

My way of countering them? Bubble wrap yourself with a fodder unit. He either drops down, flames them, then you retaliate with mass firepower (rapid fire bolters are very good here); or he drops farther away, in which case you still have your bubble wrap. In the assault phase, charge the flamers with your fodder unit, and he will be forced to overwatch that unit. Then charge with your heavier assault unit - he can't overwatch.

EDIT:
Also, remember how deepstriking works. He has to place his models in a circle - base to base - around the first model. This means he can ONLY use the flamers that don't go over his own unit. Can't have your own guys under your template!

Aelyn wrote:

The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

 Exergy wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

To expand the counter is essentially to go MSU.

 Exergy wrote:
you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

This. The Terminators have a shot at taking saves so use them as a secondary charge-in unit. This should be easy enough if you keep your units close enough (which is tempting fate against templates, I know).
A couple of other things you can do:
1) take Sanguinary Guard, who will also get a save but are faster and will still mince them in combat.
2) take Priests with Storm Shields, to hopefully prolong their lifespan - the FNP bubbles will keep your troops alive, Termies and SG included. Don't forget that Death Company also have FNP as standard.
3) abuse the Stormravens in zoom mode. Flamers can't attack them as they can't snap-shot templates, and you're likely to have the benefit of bringing it on once you know where the Flamers are.
4) try Vanguard - as they can charge on the turn they arrive, they only need one survivor to lock the unit in combat and allow your other troops to charge without Overwatch. You'll need a big unit for Flamers as a target, though, which would be expensive.

2 5 man Strike Squads and a Divination Inquisitor will provide all the DS protection you need.

The enemy will be forced to DS over 12" away from your lines, and if he scatters to inside 12" he's in major trouble.


Alternativly replace the Inquisitor with Coteaz to make them die before they get to shoot.

You are playing a blood angels army: That's the problem in itself - you are bringing a paper to a scissor fight.

The only way I can fathom that can deal with such a list is a shooty list - something the BA has trouble with...

Have you tried a bolter-armed death company? Pelt them to death. I think the key is keeping them from deep striking at favorable positions.

There is really nothing wrong with your list, and tactics can only help you so much. There are just fights you cant win.

No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Combat squads.

10 assault marines v 9 flamers. Flamers will average 18 shots from wall of death killing 9 assault marines. That's a big problem, unless you combat squad. Now damage is capped off at 5 marines. The remaining 5 marines can take on 9 flamers in cc once they get into cc. It also helps to detach ic from a squad when fighting flamers.

Msu armies with mobility and halfway decent tt can take flamers.

Here's What I'd do.
1) Take 2 blood ravens. He can't shoot them, they're tough to kill.
Take 2x10 scouts (vet with power fist) and 2x Furioso dreadnought with claws. Whoever doesn't get the overwatch will kill them. You could also toss in the priest if you feel lucky.

Spread out so that he can't hit the rest of your army at once.
Try and deploy in the top story of tall buildings. You can't fire flamers from the ground up that high.

It's a 815 point solution to a ~630 point problem, but you should come out of it ahead.

-Matt

On the turn after your flyers come in, go to hover mode and drop the dreadnoughts and infantry out. Have each pair assault a unit of flamers. He can only over watch once, and whoever he doesn't over-watch at is going to tear the unit apart.

As much as I hate the unit, Stormravens should work really well here. Take heavy bolters, TL assault cannons, and the Hurrican bolter upgrade and just unleash hell. These things can throw out a ton of shots and the flamers just have to take it. You cannot use flamer template against flyers. It sounds like he has very little that might even be able to deal with flyers in the first place.

Do what i did to kill a large block of them. Send typhus at them with nurgle cultist. I cast the malediction to give them gets hot before charging. That helped stop the damage some and then the cultist hit them and eventually wiped them out.

20 man cultist squad of nurgle 130pts
typhus 230
360 pts is steep but

the squad did it easily and really stopped my opponents power squads. I had a zombie squad charge his turbo boosting screamers and locked them up for the game. Solution get them into combat with something that doesnt care about ap2.

The best thing to do before taking anything else is to spread your forces and make the most of unit coherency. You make it so there's less under the template and less spaces for them to drop in easy next to your guys. A flame template also happens to only be 8", and while it is usually over looked they do have the same basic shooting ability that the Horrors have by default as well. So they can still fire at fliers probably, but it'd be like trying to shoot it down with a bolter.

You need to redesign your army if possible. Bring an assault army against a flamer-heavy daemons list and 9 out of 10 games, you'd probably lose.

How you kill flamers is by shooting them to death. You need to add a lot of shooting to your army if you want to take on that army and win on a consistent basis (or at least more than you are currently doing).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

I played against 44 flamers with my crons! I actually let him take 2200pts of daemons to my 2K necrons.

Here's a little trick against the flamers and you can do it with almost any army (I mean that the same concept applies to other armies).

Before assaulting them, I split up my destroyer lord from my wraiths. I then charge my destroyer lord first. Naturally he dies....but I don't care because he's equipped with a res orb. Then the wraiths can charge in overwatch-free and my d-lord has a 50% chance to get back up.

With other armies, you need a cheap sacrificial unit to make the charge first. After that unit eats the overwatch, then you charge in your hammer unit.


Oh....and it also helped that backing up my wraiths were 4 flyers and 3 annihilation barges.

Where to start?

For one, Blood Angels will ALWAYS be gimped vs Flamers. Unfortunately the lack of bolters really, really hurts you. Lascannons, Missiles and even Riflemen aren't particularly good options because none of them particularly excel at killing light infantry.

Grey Knight detachments aren't the auto-fix that many are making them out to be. For one, warp quake only helps you if you go first (there is also some decreased effectiveness with the ability to pre-measure). Otherwise you are still pretty much at the mercy of the Flamers. Secondly 10 Strikers with 2 Psycannons will only kill 4-5 Flamers, that simply isnt enough as even 2-3 Flamers can easily kill an entire squad of marines.

Sending fodder units in to absorb overwatch or having large, cheap screens are two of your very best options. I would recommend taking Coteaz, 10 Purifiers, 10 Strikes and a squad of max Henchmen, completely plain. This gives you an effective screen with which you can protect the rest of your army and gain more turns of shooting.

As suggested by others, I would also take as few upgrades as possible so as to maximize how many bodies you have on the table!

Does your friend also run screamers and FMCs? Because that is when the flamers get really brutal. New Daemons are borderline broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
As much as I hate the unit, Stormravens should work really well here. Take heavy bolters, TL assault cannons, and the Hurrican bolter upgrade and just unleash hell. These things can throw out a ton of shots and the flamers just have to take it. You cannot use flamer template against flyers. It sounds like he has very little that might even be able to deal with flyers in the first place.

Not a good idea, that storm raven only deals 9-10 wounds resulting in only a few dead flamers. The Raven doesn't come in till turn 2 at the earliest and it also will be mercy to restricted movement abilities due to the nature of fliers. It also costs an INSANE amount of points to take that set-up. They will never really make their points back against a Daemon list.

What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!