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TBH, the Inquisition has probably deviated far from what either the Emperor and Malcador originally formed. They wanted a counter-insurgency force that would root out potential traitors, not a witch hunt. Same thing with the Imperium - its technological/cultural stagnation, coupled with an intolerant, religious, superstitious, and tyrannical nature would have horrified/outraged the Emperor and the other leaders of the Great Crusade.

BlaxicanX wrote:As could Guardsmen. But, like Guardsmen, the amount of Sisters it would take to perform as well as one Space Marine would project the experiment into no longer being cost-efficient. A single Marine can, and has, (ADB's Black rage short story, for one example) slaughtered entire squads of Sisters by themselves. They operate on two different levels of efficiency.

Because Black Library novels are a premier source for an accurate depiction of balance between forces, amirite?

I'm sorry, all I see in GW's fluff is entire Marine Chapters having been purged by the Sororitas, yet I know of no Sororitas Order having been purged by the Space Marines.
In the end, bolters are bolters, plasma guns are plasma guns - at least as far as GW tells us. Power armour won't save you against either. So it most often comes down to a question of reconnaisance/intelligence and positioning/preparation. Space Marines are undoubtedly much more resilient than the average human, yet to suggest that they would not fall victim to the same kind of guns with which SM and CSM fight each other makes me think that engagements between the two forces must be a real drag, what with so many rounds of ammunition spent and nobody dying.

For what it's worth, even a single Guardsman could - in theory - slaughter an entire squad of Space Marines if he catches the unit off-guard with a heavy bolter. It seems the importance of circumstance often gets lost in silly "army X is better than army Y!" debates.

I'm sorry. I do not want to get tangled up in a "Marines vs Sisters rawr rawr" discussion, so I will once again stress that I am not challenging their superiority. In a direct one-on-one duel, they're the better fighters by virtue of having tougher, genetically enhanced bodies. Take that and be happy! What I *don't* want to see, however, and what truly prompts me to responses such as this is when this "better fighters" gets turned into "they're so badass they are sooo much better than everyone else, they can capture entire planets with just a single squad of soldiers, and can kill entire armies solo". And that's how your argument came along now.
No, personally, I will continue to operate on what I have read in the Codex, which is that both Marines and Sisters have developed a grudging respect for each others' battle prowess. And you don't get that by "operating on two different levels of efficiency".

"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- GW website

It's ironical that, apparently, Marines and Sisters in the fluff seem to get along better with each other than their fans on the internets.

ENOZONE wrote:As Melissa alluded to in a second hand way, each part of the IoM is integral to its survival. The SM's fulfill a tactical role that others cannot, but cannot fill every role themselves. Which is why - apart from just the insane zealotry that comes with any of the military orders that makes them endemically entrenched into the Imperium; looking at you SoB's - humanity really needs all of them. Standard fair if you think about it.

Well ... I would say humanity needs everyone in the same way as it needs every adolescent kid capable of holding a lasgun. It is beset by enemies on all sides, so every single soldier counts. As far as the individual tactics and capabilities are concerned, however, I don't think there is any issue a Marine Chapter (or an Order of Sororitas) is committed to that cannot also be solved by throwing waves and waves of Guard at it. It'll just take longer and waste more lives (or fewer, if the SoB are followed by badly trained Frateris Militia ), but blood is the one resource the Imperium seems most willing to spend.

Melissia wrote:Meh, GW could easily retcon the numbers of Sisters. In fact they've done this several times already, and that's just studio material.

Hmm, actually I do not think the numbers have changed, ever. Since 3E there is a stronger focus on the Minor Orders (which I theorise to be more numerous in total headcount than the six Major Orders), but they already existed on the first organisational chart, and the number of Sisters within the Major Orders has remained unchanged ever since they were first mentioned in the 2E 'dex. Newer sources seem to be more vague about it, i.e. saying "thousands" instead of the 3.000-7.000 of the first Codex, but as that is still "thousands" I do not really count this as a retcon. The design notes for the Witch Hunter Codex even reiterated that the writers took great care to keep consistency with all the Ecclesiarchy/SoB fluff that was released before, even going back to the Rogue Trader era.

Well, there was that one time with the weird typo on the 5E rulebook where we first thought that the number of Major Orders was reduced. Actually had me thinking they'd merge the Orders with the most casualties (Guard-style) for a while until they released newer material that had the "correct" number again. But ... yeah, given that this was a one-time thing long reverted, personally I count it as an unintentional mistake rather than a retcon.

I can only hope that a future "proper" Codex - whenever we're going to see that one - keeps the relative consistency from the Sisters' previous fluff rather than unnecessarily re-imagining things. SoB fluff, at least the one from GW, seems to be one of the most stable things of the entire franchise, and I do not want to see that change. I've grown to like them because of all the things I have read so far, after all...

 Lynata wrote:
Because Black Library novels are a premier source for an accurate depiction of balance between forces, amirite?

I'm sorry, all I see in GW's fluff is entire Marine Chapters having been purged by the Sororitas, yet I know of no Sororitas Order having been purged by the Space Marines.
In the end, bolters are bolters, plasma guns are plasma guns - at least as far as GW tells us. Power armour won't save you against either. So it most often comes down to a question of reconnaisance/intelligence and positioning/preparation. Space Marines are undoubtedly much more resilient than the average human, yet to suggest that they would not fall victim to the same kind of guns with which SM and CSM fight each other makes me think that engagements between the two forces must be a real drag, what with so many rounds of ammunition spent and nobody dying.

For what it's worth, even a single Guardsman could - in theory - slaughter an entire squad of Space Marines if he catches the unit off-guard with a heavy bolter. It seems the importance of circumstance often gets lost in silly "army X is better than army Y!" debates.

I'm sorry. I do not want to get tangled up in a "Marines vs Sisters rawr rawr" discussion, so I will once again stress that I am not challenging their superiority. In a direct one-on-one duel, they're the better fighters by virtue of having tougher, genetically enhanced bodies. Take that and be happy! What I *don't* want to see, however, and what truly prompts me to responses such as this is when this "better fighters" gets turned into "they're so badass they are sooo much better than everyone else, they can capture entire planets with just a single squad of soldiers, and can kill entire armies solo". And that's how your argument came along now.
No, personally, I will continue to operate on what I have read in the Codex, which is that both Marines and Sisters have developed a grudging respect for each others' battle prowess. And you don't get that by "operating on two different levels of efficiency".

"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- GW website

It's ironical that, apparently, Marines and Sisters in the fluff seem to get along better with each other than their fans on the internets.

So what you're saying is, you entirely agree with my assertion that Space Marines are vastly superior to Sisters on every level, to the point where trying to replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters would be pointless. You disagree with the assertion that Space Marines are invincible and can conquer entire planets with ease, two assertions that I never made.

Okay.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

However, there are Chaos Space Marines, therefore, getting rid of all the regular Marines would not be fine.

 niclebel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

Still be tons of traitor guard though, and Astartes can deal with Daemonic assaults far better then normal Guardsmen who tend to lose their minds.

 niclebel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

Daemons.

BlaxicanX wrote:So what you're saying is, you entirely agree with my assertion that Space Marines are vastly superior to Sisters on every level, to the point where trying to replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters would be pointless. You disagree with the assertion that Space Marines are invincible and can conquer entire planets with ease, two assertions that I never made. Okay.

No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example. The Space Marines have tougher bodies - that's it. No doubt that is a big advantage, one which I am willing to concede and have already mentioned. But you're acting like this is some sort of "I Win button" now. I could just as well point out that the Sisters have greater willpower and dedication and are overall much more reliable as a military force. But that doesn't make Sisters "vastly superior on every level" either. As I've been saying: circumstances. And there's a huge difference between having an advantage and being an exaggerated piece of fanwankery, if you excuse the language.

Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!

Anyways, the one thing I am agreeing on with you is that it is indeed pointless to try and replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters. Simply because it's apparently "easier" to make a Space Marine than to make a Battle Sister. One has artificial genetic enhancement pushing semi-randomly selected child soldiers past their natural limitations, the other has a grueling training regime where only those with a certain degree of predetermined natural toughness and willpower may qualify for final selection. In other words, anyone with compatible DNA can become a Marine, but by far not every girl is tough enough to make it into the Sororitas.

If we'd be talking efficiency, the Marines should simply step up their recruitment program a la Huron or Black Templars and transform even more feralworlders and street kids into new Astartes. Just pick anyone that has a chance of surviving the implantation process - I'm sure the Mechanicus could cope with the added strain on bolter and armour requests, given the potential effect of such a vast force of Space Marines. The only reason it isn't done seems to be politics, plain and simple. The High Lords are still afraid of a second HH. And so the Imperium will keep gimping itself. Welcome to 40k.

Space Marines exist because Warhammer 40,000 is a Fantasy setting, not a Science Fiction setting, it's just set in Space. Realistically, the entire military value of the massed might of the Adeptus Astartes would equal about 6 hours worth of recruiting for the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and it would have taken hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.

Above and beyond anything else, it's because they're the focal point of a Fantasy setting. That's it. If you look at the Space Marines from any realistic perspective, they're military value is negligible, their autonomy is hazardous, and the resources they require are exorbitant next to their military value.

On that note, I wonder if there's a lot of people on LotR forums who complain about the Hobbit-Centric storyline.

The space marines play a role that no ordinary human can ever be; Shock Troops. Or more specifically, incredibly reliable and swift shock troops.

When space marines go to battle, they find the weakest point in the enemy's defenses and then abuse it. They focus on making a swift and brutal strike (in varying ways) to utterly crush the enemy.

 Lynata wrote:
No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example.

Okay, but semantics is not a valid argument. I could argue that a single Space Marine is not superior to a single Guardsmen because they both have ten fingers. That isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously.

Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!

Actually, my interpretation is based on the fluff as a whole. There is only a single instance of fluff in aaaaalllll of 40K-dom that would imply that Sororitas can stand toe-to-toe with Marines, and that is the entry regarding them being used to cull Marine chapters. Impressive, but not as much as you make it out to be, considering the ambiguity of the quote. On the other hand, there is a myriad of fluff showcasing sisters being worn as hats for Grey Knights, getting slaughtered by Nurgle marines and whole squads+tanks being butchered by individual marines, just to name some. You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol

I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.

 Lynata wrote:
Anyways, the one thing I am agreeing on with you is that it is indeed pointless to try and replace Space Marines with Battle Sisters. Simply because it's apparently "easier" to make a Space Marine than to make a Battle Sister. One has artificial genetic enhancement pushing semi-randomly selected child soldiers past their natural limitations, the other has a grueling training regime where only those with a certain degree of predetermined natural toughness and willpower may qualify for final selection. In other words, anyone with compatible DNA can become a Marine, but by far not every girl is tough enough to make it into the Sororitas.

Sorry but no, that just shows you know nothing about how marines recruit.
Marines take the very best of a planet (and then more often than not deathworlds, feral planets or other placed where people struggle to survive) put them through grueling training that leave only a small percentage left to receive the geneseed.

 Vaktathi wrote:
hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.

There are now slightly over 1.000.000 Astartes serving the Imperium, not millions.
And Billions never existed, the largest number of Astartes that could have exited was only 5.000.000, And that is only of every other Legion number as Ultramarines ( 250.000 Astartes ), since that was not the case I can only assume that largest number of Space Marines in the galaxy at their peak was somewhere between 2 and 3 million.

Its an interesting discussion point re Sisters as to why there are so few of them

Is it a official/unoffical policy to limit the power of the Church and /or the Adepta Sororitas themselves or related to the selection process or a combination, or indeed other things.

OT There are so many things that don't bear to much close examination in 40K but are Cool. And thats the primary reason behind the Astartes/Titans/Giant Spaceships etc etc - cos they are cool and to be fair - thats all I really need.

IMO the Rogue Trader Space Marines made far more sense.

To paraphrase Guderian

'A company of soldiers where they are not expected, is worth a Division of soldiers where they are.'

Space marines may have ludicrous up front costs, but they concentrate killing power and surviveability in a single individual. and when used in numbers, a small force of marines will have at least 10x the killing power of 'normal' troops.
They also strike where they are not expected, meaning their combat power is massively increased due to the fact that those targets will have more limited defences, or simply be not expecting the attack.

So while they may be resource inefficient on an individual level, the fact that they can deploy anywhere really fast, not have to worry about bureacracy, and win wars by striking at high value targets rather than slugging it out on the ground (despite what some of the rather laughable fluff says to the contrary) means that they are likely much cheaper than sending in the Navy and imperial guard to smash the target into submission

In my opinion, the SM's still exist just to combat Chaos. I know I know, if the Space Marines were never created Chaos SM's wouldn't exist but that was back when they were useful. Ya know. 10 millennia ago. Guardsman just can't fight Chaos and Daemons. They are humans, all WILL lose their minds. Space Marines can't. The IG can take on ANY other force, except CSM and Daemons. They just aren't as useful in groups of 1,000 man chapters as they were in 10,000 man legions. Even then, they only deploy a handful of marines per combat action fluff wise...

Heresy...

Second of all, as it has been said, they are shock troops. A planet rebels and is all screw you imperium, then out of nowhere 7+ foot tall super soldiers in power armor fall from the sky and commence to place your spleen on the ground in front of you before you even knew you had a spleen. Rebellion ended.

I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.

I think that is a good motive to have space marines.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
No. See, you're just crossing a fine line here.
Space Marines cannot be "vastly" superior to Sisters "on every level" when they both use comparable armour and weaponry, for example.

Okay, but semantics is not a valid argument. I could argue that a single Space Marine is not superior to a single Guardsmen because they both have ten fingers. That isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously.

Of course it all comes down to the sources we have aligned our perception of the setting to. I realize that our different interpretations very likely stem from reading different books, so in a way we're both correct, and no doubt there are many novel interpretations where Space Marines are as you say. The majority even, I would say!

Actually, my interpretation is based on the fluff as a whole. There is only a single instance of fluff in aaaaalllll of 40K-dom that would imply that Sororitas can stand toe-to-toe with Marines, and that is the entry regarding them being used to cull Marine chapters. Impressive, but not as much as you make it out to be, considering the ambiguity of the quote. On the other hand, there is a myriad of fluff showcasing sisters being worn as hats for Grey Knights, getting slaughtered by Nurgle marines and whole squads+tanks being butchered by individual marines, just to name some. You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol

I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.

You're right semantics is not a valid arguement. I don't mean to be rude but comparing two entities that share the same weapon and armor to two entities that share the same number of fingers is a gross violation of common sense.

In your own words:

that isn't a valid point, however, and no one would take it seriously

 Seb wrote:
I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.

I think that is a good motive to have space marines.

Indeed.
Space Marines are and will be the ultimate soldiers that will not give up, even though the odds. They can survive meltagun shots and still fight, they can withstand daemonworlds for a while and, to finish it, the Emperor's reasoning behind them:

One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness
One last blade, forged in defiance of fate

Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered

And my final gift to the species I failed

Plus, space marines will have far more experience then any guardsman or sister of battle.
And experience is worth a lot.

Blobpie wrote:The space marines play a role that no ordinary human can ever be; Shock Troops. Or more specifically, incredibly reliable and swift shock troops.

Yes, because no humans have ever performed that role...

When space marines go to battle, they find the weakest point in the enemy's defenses and then abuse it. They focus on making a swift and brutal strike (in varying ways) to utterly crush the enemy.

And again...normal humans are incapable of shock assault since...when?

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
There are now slightly over 1.000.000 Astartes serving the Imperium, not millions.

Right...that's my point.

And Billions never existed, the largest number of Astartes that could have exited was only 5.000.000, And that is only of every other Legion number as Ultramarines ( 250.000 Astartes ), since that was not the case I can only assume that largest number of Space Marines in the galaxy at their peak was somewhere between 2 and 3 million.

Right...again, my point. Those tiny numbers of Space Marines just don't work on a galactic scale.

Seb wrote:I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever. Imagine you can send just anywhere you want fanatical man-sized tanks.

I think that is a good motive to have space marines.

And they're so rare to the point where they're literally myth in most of the Imperium and the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine boot, needed or not. If there were a thousand times their current number, they might have some measurable value, as is, they're so limited in number that even the entirety of the astartes wouldn't have been able to fight the war on Vraks or any number of other conflicts without functionally destroying themselves.


Space Marines are relevant and important because GW says they are and because they're the central story protagonists, not because they'd actually be militarily relevant or offer anything a few hours worth of Munitorum recruiting doesn't. Again, it's why 40k is Space Fantasy and not Science Fiction.

BlaxicanX wrote:You can argue that the overwhelming amount of fluff that shows Marines being Sisters+5 is tainted by Marine bias, and you'd be correct. However, you can't simply render fluff invalid because you don''t like the inspiration behind it. lol
I mean, you can. This is 40K, after all. But for the sake of having a conversation, if we just ignore fluff that doesn't fit into our views, than there is no point in having a conversation.

That's the problem, isn't it? Much of the "overall fluff" of 40k is inherently incombatible. It's not meant to exist side by side, and in the past I have quoted GW designers as well as novel authors all agreeing on this. Compare both Sisters and Marines how they and their equipment are depicted in GW's books to how they are described in, for example, FFG's Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs. Worlds apart! So unsurprisingly, someone who likes the latter more will have a whole different view on the topic than I have with my continued focus on GW's own material. Same goes for the Black Library novels - actually, there you have an even greater gap as they are written by even more people with less collaboration.

So yes, we all render fluff invalid. You do, too, even if you may not have realised it already. But that is the source of our difference in opinion.

As for the semantics issue, see Shlazaor. I will only point out that if the Space Marines' guns can kill CSMs, then so can the Sisters' guns kill Space Marines. And the Marines guns' can kill Sisters. Weapon equality does much to level the playing field, hence me pointing out the circumstances. Genetic superiority doesn't help much if your head is gone from the detonation of a mass-reactive explosive shell or a shot of superheated plasma. Marines will always have an advantage, but I contest the idea that it is as big as you make it out to be. It may well be "Sisters+5" under some circumstances. Other times it may be Sisters+2. And yet other times it may be 1:1 or even skewed to the Sisters' favor, all depending on factors such as terrain, awareness, troop composition, individual experience, and more. Even a single Guardsman with a plasma gun can kill or neutralize a Space Marine with one shot, so hey.

And no, there is not "only a single instance in aaaaall of 40k fluff". Off the top of my head I can name the entry in the 1E Rogue Trader rulebook, a remark in the 3E Codex design notes printed in White Dwarf, a more detailed description of how hunting down rogue Marine Chapters is done in Index Astartes IV, Andy Hoare's Strikeforce article in Citadel Journal (the one with SoB drop pod rules), and one mentioning in another more recent White Dwarf 2-3 months back. I can look up and quote them if you need proof. And that's just Games Workshop's own material!
This may sound arrogant now, but I think you just don't know the Sisters fluff as good as I do.

jonolikespie wrote:
Sorry but no, that just shows you know nothing about how marines recruit. Marines take the very best of a planet (and then more often than not deathworlds, feral planets or other placed where people struggle to survive) put them through grueling training that leave only a small percentage left to receive the geneseed.

I recommend you consult GW's Index Astartes books/articles for a detailed explanation on how Marine recruitment and creation works.

In my opinion, the idea that "the very best of a planet" can be determined at age 10-14 is a bit silly. Given how the human body is still developing, how will you know that one 10 year old kid may not make a better warrior than another later down the road, just because one seems stronger at this young age? And some Chapters recruit them even younger. The Salamanders take kids as young as 6 years old, and as I mentioned before they let one's aptitude at blacksmithing decide who may become a Marine.

No. The simple truth (at least as per GW's material) is that "very best of a planet" (which not even all Chapters do) is an optional tradition that seems completely irrelevant to the end result. Successfully being turned into a Space Marine makes everyone a superior human being, regardless of what he was before. A sickly nerd would, if given the Astartes treatment, make a stronger warrior than the most elite soldier we ever had in the real world, simply because hypno-indoctrination, muscle-therapy and implantation artificially turn him into a beast of a man. Given the massive gap between a normal human being and a Space Marine, do you really believe there would be a noticeable difference between the two if both this very same nerd and that soldier are being made Space marines?

The only things that -truly- matter are gender, age, brain susceptibility and genetic compatibility. Gender and age are not an issue anywhere, brain susceptibility is a combination of age and many Chapters' preference for feral worlders and street gangers. Genetic compatibility between host and implants is the single-most definite limitation on who can become a Space Marine, and it has squat to do with the recruit being the "very best of a planet" or not. It's how the Salamanders manage to get along at all, and they seem to do as good as the other Chapters with their choice of blacksmith-apprentice-recruits.

In fact, in many cases "the very best of a planet" probably cannot possibly be recruited simply because his DNA isn't compatible. Tough luck making a Marine out of that one.

thenoobbomb wrote:Plus, space marines will have far more experience then any guardsman or sister of battle.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. A fully-fledged Sister of Battle has received professional military education from infancy, whereas Space Marines most often seem to grow up being hunters dwelling in caves or juve gangers smuggling drugs past local Enforcers. To be sure, the hypno-indoctrination they receive as part of the conversion process would feed an understanding of modern combat directly into their brains, but does this count as experience? Maybe, though I would assume "the real thing" such as their Scout years and the many hours of training in and around the Fortress-Monastery each day are more important. Thanks to rejuvenation treatments, veteran Battle Sisters may also become as old as most Space Marines, provided they do not fall in battle. Of course, the average rank-and-file Sisters would probably have an experience of "only" 12 years of Schola indoctrination, 5 years as a Novice and then 1-20 years of field experience. Then again, would the average rank-and-file Tactical Marine really have that many decades more? They've all been young once, and an Order's average member age may be as fluctuating as that of a Chapter, all depending on how active it is in combat and thus how many losses would need to be replaced by fresh recruits. The more an Order or a Chapter goes to war, the higher the potential for casualties and thus the lower the average age. On the other hand, only real combat may grant real experience ...

Seb wrote:I think the morale issue was not brought up. These guys will not give ground, ever.

If it's a "clean" Chapter that actually follows orders and does not suffer from some mentally-affecting geneseed corruption, yes.

The true value of a Space Marine to the Imperium probably depends on the individual Chapter. That's why I actually like the Ultramarines - on them you can rely.

Also, what madtankbloke wrote.

Well this became bigger than I expected...

Keep it going.

Blobpie wrote: Right...that's my point.

You said millions, witch is more than one million so you were wrong.

Right...again, my point. Those tiny numbers of Space Marines just don't work on a galactic scale.

You said Billions witch is more than 999 million, you were wrong again.
And not work on galactic scale? Did you even read Horus Heresy novels about Great Crusade and Imperial Truth? There was nothing in the galaxy that can oppose them or defeat them. The only time they had trouble was at Gyros-Thravian, witch was probably the biggest Ork WARGHHH the Imperium saw ( second was was 2'nd and 3'rd Armageddon war ). And even they were defeated after Emperor came with just 1.000 Custodes. One Legion was more than enough to exterminate entire species and entire Eldar maiden worlds and Craftworlds.
Space Marines don't work on galactic scale? Sorry but Great Crusade success goes against that. And even today, in 41'st millennium, Astartes are making their impact on galactic scale as in the all except the most important battles 100 Marines are more than enough to tip the course of the battle or even war in Imperium's favor. They are still capable of stopping large incursions and defeating their opponents no matter their strength or magic they use. Astartes don't work on galactic scale in 41'st millennium? Continued survival of Mankind proves that.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Space Marines exist because Warhammer 40,000 is a Fantasy setting, not a Science Fiction setting, it's just set in Space. Realistically, the entire military value of the massed might of the Adeptus Astartes would equal about 6 hours worth of recruiting for the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and it would have taken hundreds of billions of Space Marines to claim an empire as was done during the Great Crusade, not merely a couple million.

Above and beyond anything else, it's because they're the focal point of a Fantasy setting. That's it. If you look at the Space Marines from any realistic perspective, they're military value is negligible, their autonomy is hazardous, and the resources they require are exorbitant next to their military value.

This.

Space Marines exist because its 'knights in shining armor in space'. The only thing that they do that cannot be done as effectively by a much larger IG force is rapid response. And even then, it only cannot be done by the IG because they are not prepared to do it - the US only has IG and its rapid response protocols are pretty good.

WH40K has plenty of battles describing sieges of fortifications that last days and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. It never consider air superiority or space superiority. Why? because it is not cool describing a bombardment. You have space superiority and the enemy entrenched itself in a impenetrable fortress? Nuke it from orbit. Throw a moon at it. Not try to force a breach. The only reason to capture a fortress instead instead of bombing it to ruin is if there is something so important inside that you cannot risk destroying it. And then, you wouldnt be using siege equipment either.

Think about what the US did in Tora-Bora in Afeghanistan. Range of mountains, full of excavated tunnels. Virtual fortification spanning miles upon miles. Bomb it until nothing can exit the tunnels, then wait for starvation to set in before you ever start to move infantary to clear the place. You don't even need to clear the place. They have a inpenetrable fortification that cannot be bombed off ( because its immune to bombs or something)? Conquer the rest of the planet and bomb anything that dares step out of the fortification.

Not to mention the numbers. 1000 soldier, no matter how great and powerful they are, are not enough to hold anything resembling the size of a planet.

Also, about the unkillability of marines - we have elephants here on earth. We have guns that can one shot said elephant. We tanks here on earth. We have guns that can one-shot said tanks. All of those are man portable, even though said anti-tank guns do not carry much ammo. While you can argue that a Space Marine is as resilient as a elephant, i doubt it is as resilient as a tank. It is as resilient as a tank while inside his power armor? Guess what? We got anti-tank guns.

In short - if we start looking at any sort of realistic way, space marines fall apart. They exist because they are cool.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Blobpie wrote: Right...that's my point.

You said millions, witch is more than one million so you were wrong.

During the Great Crusade we had 18 legions with an average of 100,000 marines, that's almost 2 million. You're arguing over semantics and missing my point that either way, that number of Space Marines, powerful as they are, are not a galaxy conquering force.

Rogal Dorn equates a Space Marine with 10 other human soldiers, even assuming that's understated by a factor of 10 (meaning each SM is worth 1000 human soldiers), and lets say that's not factoring in any force multipliers and that none apply to the human soldiers so lets multiply it by 100 again to say each space marine is worth 10,000 human troops (a ludicrous number even by the most ardent SM fanboy's estimation) the entirety of the 1 million strong astartes is worth 10,000,000,000 (ten billion) guardsmen, or about 0.5% (1/200th) of the IG's military strength (not counting the Imperial Navy) assuming "trillions" as given by the IG codex and core rulebook for IG numbers means the minimum value of 2 trillion for plural "2". So vastly overestimating the value of the astartes and using the minimum possible size given for the Imperial Guard, they Space Marines provide one half of one percent of the military value of the Imperial Guard, including their force multipliers.

Now if we put that in a more realistic sense, it gets even worse. Assuming the Imperium (as *highly* militarized society) is only as militarized as modern day earth, and assuming the *average* planetary population is roughly 6 billion (about earth's a few years ago), and say 1 million worlds, we get 20,000,000,000,000 (20 trillion) IG troops. If we tone down our SM estimates to be 1 SM is worth 1000 IG troops (still a bit exaggerated, but we'll be generous and say it includes their Force Multiplier abilities), the entirety of the Astartes has a military value equal to about 1/20,000 of the Imperial Guard (0.005%), not including the IN/PDF/Arbites/etc.

Now you begin to see where this all starts to look a bit silly?

You said Billions witch is more than 999 million, you were wrong again.

Where are you going with this? You're missing my point here, which is that on the scale we're talking about you'd need tens or hundreds of thousands more marines than they actually had to achieve such a conquest.

And not work on galactic scale? Did you even read Horus Heresy novels about Great Crusade and Imperial Truth? There was nothing in the galaxy that can oppose them or defeat them.

Which basically boils down to "because GW said so". When you read the stories, the rate at which marines die, see the casualty rates given for various battles, and multiply that over the scale of a galaxy, the Astartes only make sense when you hand-wave away reality and simply have them win through plot armor and conquering hundreds of trillions of individuals with marines numbering in the small millions/hundreds of thousands mostly just "because".

Space Marines don't work on galactic scale? Sorry but Great Crusade success goes against that.

Aaaand your still missing my point, which is they work because GW says they do, contrary to any examination/analysis of their own fluff and any common sense. To cover that much territory, fight that many battles, much less with the casualty rates they are described as sustaining, the Astartes would need to number far more than they did.

And even today, in 41'st millennium, Astartes are making their impact on galactic scale as in the all except the most important battles 100 Marines are more than enough to tip the course of the battle or even war in Imperium's favor.

Which again, is largely simply through plot armor because it's a Fantasy universe, not because it's realistic in any way.

Astartes don't work on galactic scale in 41'st millennium? Continued survival of Mankind proves that.

By which you mean the Imperial Guard, the force that wins 99% of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single space marine boot?

Wyrmnax wrote:
In short - if we start looking at any sort of realistic way, space marines fall apart. They exist because they are cool.

Exactly!

Because GW said so?
I am sorry but aren't they the ones who owns Warhammer 40.000? If they say that Space Marines are the only thing standing between Mankind and annihilation ( Ultramarines the Movie ) than that is the truth and nothing else matters, not logic nor reason.

You can argue entire day that the Guard is better, in my opinion it is because Guardsmen use a to ton ordinance and are perfect to wage long wars. But there is some battles Guard simply cannot win ( 13'th Black Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Armageddon War, Nimbosa Crusade, Battle for Macragge, Tarsis Ultra etc... ) and this is where Astartes goes in - to win battles ordinary Humans cannot. Givign into account various examples from fluff ( primitive Orks destroy 3 Regiments of Guard with ease, a minor Hive Fleet destroy 3 million Guardsmen like they were nothing, Necrons piratically destroying the Imperium's most elite Guard Regiments like they are cockroaches, a minor Tau fighting Cadre defeat four time larger Imperial Guard force etc....) we can see that in many occasions the Guard simply cannot win - and that's where the Astartes come in.

And please do not use plot armor i nthis kind of discussion, we already know that Imperium itself has a plot armor that is beyond comprehension so using it with only Astartes is kind of stupid when the entire empire they protect already has gigantic one..

All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium. They are also important because they are Emperor's will made manifest, where Space Marines go to war it means that place is important to the Emperor himself. This gives great morale boast to the troops and their actions actually cut the Guard losses by half or even more sometimes. They exist for the simple reson why SAS, Navy Seals, Spetnaz and many other exist in today's army's - not to win wars but to win battles that will determinate the outcome of the war. And yet nobody is asking: "Why do we need Navy Seals or Delta Force?". I have nothing more to say on this matter, the rest is up to the people to decide...

I think the arguement that the IG is the primary force holding the IoM together is clear. But I still don't feel as if the primary assertion for why space marines are good was met. They do things normal people cannot and they get it done quickly at the drop of a hat. They aren't meant to protect the galaxy. They are meant to win specific decisive battles that could threaten the galaxy.