Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well I have take some free time and post this question of Facebook and these are the answers:

EDIT: Some post may hold vulgar language, I apologize for any in advance.

An SM is worth way more than 10 guardsmen.

Comparatively they consume less resources. Especially since they take from the Imperium Munitorum pool.

And wait, are you trying to evince plausibility from sci fi fantasy? The usual rule states that the rules are in place, the ones which underpin the sense of any sci fi fantasy universe, for the premise or the basic functionality of the universes elements to be plausible if contextualized in that way. Ergo, wasted void analysis.

i think this guy is stupid a gaurdsmens life span in battle is something like a hour were as a sm's is 200 years i dont believe that it is 70 years more like 40-50 the sm's reuse weps armour gaurds get newly made lasguns dont do gak in 40k and even puncture sm armour only knock them over the amount of gaurds it'd take to kill a daemon is 100+ and yet 1 or 2 sm's. a regiment of gaurd is 1000 or more dudes and there are 100,000s of regiments from one planet consuming more and ammo. and they use imperium resources were as a chapter is self sustaining does this guy forget the books are the big more reknowned battles where they take more loses the gaurds are used as fodder nothing more so dont even get me started on the k/d ratio gaurds do not compare to a sm

My word, just to get back to the very core of the post: Astartes were created by the emperor for one reason (conquer) and that's what they stood for all great crusade long... Back in these days they were ready to rumble within a few years, not decades as today. Back in these days too, impérium was expanding and didn't have the lack of backup they have to front now. Space marines were born to serve the great crusade, and are now mankind's only hope. There's no point asking if they are still needed, just show some respect, deference, and grate for if they didn't exist there'd be no imperium, then no IG..

I think that due to the Uriel ventris quote "A space marine is not worth mortal men simply in strength..." etc that a space marine is a godlike figure, something that symbolizes the imperiums strength as a whole, and in the books they're worth far more than ten guardsmen, and due to the overall resource output of the Imperium, the small inefficiencies that they face in makign Space Marines is far more than paid for by their performance

When you need special weapons and tactics, then PA clad heroes able to withstand firestorms and have got the balls to kick a daemon prince in the knackers are whats needed. Guard can only last so long against the strongest and most cunning of enemies.

I agree with Andrew; "Salvation's Reach" has 3 Space Marines and some servitors go up against several hundred loxatl mercenaries, and all 3 marines survive (the same cannot be said of the mercenaries). Bear in mind, that the previous time said mercenaries were fought in the books, 3 of them were holding off an imperial guard platoon quite handily.

what makes you think it takes 70 to train a tactical marine? It´s more like 20 or 30 at most. And a single marine is worth hundreds of guardsmen at least (fluff wise).

Space mariens can live so much longer than a guardsman, it may take about 70 years for a teenager to become a fully power armored space marine, it takes nearly 10 years to complete training and implants then about 50 years (depending on the chapter) as a entry lvl usually a scout. Once they are full mariens they have so much knowledge and experience they are worth so much more than what it took to train them. 50 years of service makes them more valuable to the imperium than tens of thousands of guardsmen, and space mariens are immortal to death by natural causes so mariens like Darnath Lysander, hes over 1000 years old and is the ultimate badass, the imperium could never train a normal human to do alot of the things he has done

The argument can be simplified to the folowing, Astartes are designed to fight the threats which regualr human troops would be obliterated by. The average guardsman wouldnt last against a swarm of Tyranids or a Chaos Marine, yet Space Marines not only survive they actually managed to decimate enemy forces. It's like the argument regarding neutron weapons, eventually humanity will develop them because quite frankly something tells me in the future we will need them.

If it were not for the Space Marines, the Imperium would have fallen long ago. It is only by their unyielding will, skill in war and courage that it has stood for ten thousand years. It is for the Guardsmen to hold ground, it is the Space Marines job to take it.

the space marines are far more than super soldiers. they are an emblem of imperial might. they are a symbol that makes guardsmen fight harder, stops the line from breaking when the hordes of orks, nids chaos (my boys) come crashing forward. the idea of them is far more valuable than the marines themselves.

Therefore, we reached the two main points behind the Adeptus Astartes. Not only are they able to perform things that a regular guardsman is unable to do, but they act as force multipliers when present in any military action.

I think the important point to bear in mind is the disparity between the fluff. Any marine novel clearly demonstrates that marines are so far removed in skill from humanity that they're virtually invincible. Then, if you read Gaunt's Ghosts, the Gereon Kill team kill five of them without losing any of their own number (but about 40 partisans) So it is entirely dependent on who you reference. The quote is something along the lines of 'Give me 100 space marines, and, failing that, 1000 of any other soldier' but it's more of a statement designed to show the worth marines have to the Imperium than a truly objective scale of measurement.

It's what I'm saying. They're worth more than ten, the quote is inaccurate, not designed to truly measure the value of a marine in comparison to a Guardsmen. Quotes are meant to be memorable, if they'd quoted him as saying; In terms of cost-benefit analysis, as well as equipment, ideological strength and physical attributes, give me 100 marines or, failing that, 23,567 guardsmen' it would've sounded stupid. Tl:dr= Marines are worth more than ten guardsmen apiece, it's just a quote. Marines are better than guardsmen in every way, they can withstand both physical and psychological stimuli that normal men can't, they're ideologically some of the soundest beings in the galaxy, have access to better equipment because they're the only ones who can wield it, have specialist formations based around their super human attributes, can, most importantly OUT-THINK most opponents, and, let's be honest, what's more inspiring than a company of genetically altered post human killing machines all wielding automatic missile launchers and chainswords?

Well, skip the novels and go to core fluff: think about a war on the scale of the Armageddon Wars. Millions of soldiers, yet a full SM chapter manages to make a difference?

A good example would also be clearing a space hulk of genesteelers. A full squad of terminators could do it (but would certainly take casualties) but could you imagine even attempting to do it with IG?

I believe in various locations in the fluff the ratio is stated to be 100:1. Also, don't underestimate what a small, compact force of far superior soldiers could do. Perfect example is ship boarding actions. A fortified hallway that could probably hold off indefinitely vs imperial guardsmen could get effortlessly smashed aside by a couple terminators. There are situations where space marines will get the job done whereas it would take battalion after battalion of guardsmen to achieve the same goal. That being said, there is a reason why guardsmen outnumber space marines so vastly.

Its actually so simple, all the people have points but what you need to take into account is that a space marine takes 70 or so years to train.. and Will continue to serve for another 50 - 1000(dante) years.. its something that might last a lot longer than any guardsman... The table top doesnt do them any justice.. and its actually rather sad that Power armor gets killed by lassguns and stuff like that..

IG= Rifleman, Shocktroopers = Army Rangers, SM= Ghost Recon

I hope I brought some light to this thread.

tl;dr doesn't begin to describe it.

 Lynata wrote:
Ahh, so it is you who determines objectivity, then?

No, it's the rules of debating and logic that decide what is objective.

I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that you are in no way biased towards one faction or the other.

As Void Dragon pointed out, I actually prefer the Guard to Space Marines by a pretty huge margin, and in fact I think Marines are overrated.

Again, *I* point out that we all "cherry-pick fluff" simply because there exists no uniform canon. Do you really want me to quote the people who actually work on this franchise again? It is not you who decides for everyone else how the setting looks like. Deal with it.

Games Workshops canon policy is overwritten by the basic rules of logic and debating. Third time now, if you want to cherry pick fluff, fine. I don't really care. But, your argument becomes meaningless. No point can ever be made objectively if we all ignored what we didn't like.

Even -if- it would work as you say - which it does not - I find the claim that you are aware of any and all details in any and all sources of fluff ever published rather hard to believe. You like Space Marines (or so I assume), so you read Marine novels. And Marines are written epic in there. Who woulda thought. I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you have not, however, read stories like Daemonblood, Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil, Red & Black? Just a thought, y'know. It's hardly a surprise that your image of Space Marines is somewhat focused on their epic legends when that is 90% of all you've read.

I've read all the Sisters of Battle novels and comics. Still not a single thing mentioned in any of those that would put a Sister on a Marine's level.

Well, apparently GW does not agree with you, be it with fluff sentences like these or the Sisters' Acts of Faith in the tabletop or the Inquisitor RPG. The sentence says "fierce warriors that are equals" to Space Marines, and it presents their faith and devotion as a balance factor set against genetic enhancement. Obviously, this is referring to their willpower and dedication, which can at times have them perform beyond what the average human should be capable of, such as ignoring pain or summoning astounding reserves of strength. We have examples for this in the real world, the Sisters of Battle are just an entire army making use of this "mind over matter" idea. And it seems as if it is this that elevates them just high enough.
Of course you can simply ignore that line about the "being equals".* As I said, we are all cherry-picking, and this is only a single line from GW which is surely conflicted by lots of Black Library novels from some freelance authors.

I have no doubt that they're superb warriors; stronger than what you would find in the Guard, sure.

But again, this really doesn't say anything about their martial prowess compared to Space Marines.

It seems there is really no point in discussing it further - you have your interpretation of the 41st millennium, born chiefly from various novels, and I have mine from GW's own books.

My interpretations are from everything, GW sources included, thus why my argument is more credible. Even taking GW sources into account, there is nothing, as you admitted to Void Dragon above, that shows them as being on par with Space Marines in a combat scenario.

In regards to the OP, in my interpretation of the fluff, there is no point to them. They're a huge waste of resources, and there are nowhere near enough of them to make any impact. But, you know, the Imperium.

IMO the Astartes are also there to provide a symbol of the sheer power of the Imperium's military. The do in the fluff , almost without exception have a semi-mythical status in the Imperium. The question maybe should be - do they work for the fluff of the 40K Universe - which they do.

They also give the Dark Eldar something they see as an actual challenge in a fight

re the Sisters/Marines debate.

For me the "ranking" is a bit like this (for straight fire fights and similar not being sneaky )

PDF/ green IG
Veteran PDF/ Guardsmen
Veteran Guardsmen /Stormtroopers
Sisters
Astartes

The big edges the SOB have over regular and even elite IG troops in a straight firefight are the power armour and boltgun, both of which they are effectively trained to use. They have their Faith which is also a big plus but not as much in straight combat.

IMO Where they loose out to the Astartes is in strength, durability and speed of reactions.

Where both shine strongly is what their presence means to the other Imperial forces - they are both seen as powerful sybols of the Emperors will and might and that perhaps His eye may be upon the field.

Now they are often used as punching bags in BL fiction, for some unknown reason. However in terms of direct combat effectiveness this can be seen in several non Sisters novels:

Legion of the Damned – they prove highly effective, respected and worthy “battle brothers” to the Space Marines during the increasingly doomed last stand.


The Cain novels – again I am just talking about combat effectiveness – despite the Commissars feelings towards them they are extremely potent warriors, whose very presence inspires the other Imperials – including long time Guard Veterans. They have mixed fates in these novels – some die, some don’t

Helsreach – pretty much as Legion of the Damned.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Well I have take some free time and post this question of Facebook and these are the answers: [...]

I have no idea to whose Facebook page you posted this, but those answers are full of contradictions to GW's position on the subject. I admit, I stopped reading at the claim that Space Marines are supposedly immune to death by natural cause.

Who did you talk to there, some novel writer?

BlaxicanX wrote:Games Workshops canon policy is overwritten by the basic rules of logic and debating.

lol - okay. Rules you made up yourself, but I spent too much time on that already.

Let's just finish the debate with the understanding that neither of us is "wrong" (as per Gav Thorpe's explanation) in their own perception, because we both "live in different worlds" when it comes to 40k fluff.

BlaxicanX wrote:I've read all the Sisters of Battle novels and comics. Still not a single thing mentioned in any of those that would put a Sister on a Marine's level.

What's wrong with Aescarion?

Mr Morden wrote:They have their Faith which is also a big plus but not as much in straight combat.

Hmm, I would say their faith is important in straight battle, too. It solidifies their morale and, in addition to this, enables them to (at least at times) go beyond what a human being would normally be capable to do. The role of psychology in sports and warfare is still being investigated by science, but few people doubt that the mind has no effect whatsoever on body performance. Here's just one random article from the internets: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/01/mind-over-matter.html

Mr Morden wrote:Now they are often used as punching bags in BL fiction, for some unknown reason.

I guess most often it is because a writer wants an elite Imperial force to get slaughtered (better equipped and trained than IG to make them and whoever kills them appear more dangerous), and using Space Marines may trigger an adverse reaction from the readers. SoB are not a popular army, so they're an ideal "punching bag".
Other writers may also simply not like the army on principle. Most if not all BL authors are also 40k fans themselves, which likely makes many of them Space Marine fans (considering that SM are the most popular army). From experience, I would say that many - not all! - Space Marine fans dislike Sisters of Battle because they may feel the Sororitas are "encroaching on their territory", be it with the badass level or their equipment, not to mention their occasional role as Marine hunters. Some may even just dislike them because they dislike the Ecclesiarchy. Once I even noticed blatant sexism (not on dakka, but on another forum).

BlaxicanX wrote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

Man up already and admit that your hyperbole was utterly worthless, and also insulting towards Tyranid fans.

I mean you wouldn't let me get away with it if I said "sisters kill Astartes captains every day", and rightfully so. Stop being a hypocrite.

I think the best way to sum up 40k lore and interpertation is...



everyone has his/her/its own strong views, and the "official stance" is they have no "official stance"

And as to the BL writers using SoB or other elite forces as sacrificial lambs to show how BA the SM are..well that just fuels the continuing slide to mary sueness of them..

this debate is actually making me want to start a SoB army now, so tired of the SM fan fanatics.

 Lynata wrote:
lol - okay. Rules you made up yourself, but I spent too much time on that already.

Let's just finish the debate with the understanding that neither of us is "wrong" (as per Gav Thorpe's explanation) in their own perception, because we both "live in different worlds" when it comes to 40k fluff.

You're entitled to your opinion. The argument you've presented thus far has been pretty weak, though.

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

Man up already and admit that your hyperbole was utterly worthless, and also insulting towards Tyranid fans.

Your posts are insulting to people with reading comprehension.

I mean you wouldn't let me get away with it if I said "sisters kill Astartes captains every day", and rightfully so. Stop being a hypocrite.

That I don't respond to every post you make regarding Space Marines is a testament to my ability to let people get away with bs.

 Lynata wrote:
I have no idea to whose Facebook page you posted this, but those answers are full of contradictions to GW's position on the subject. I admit, I stopped reading at the claim that Space Marines are supposedly immune to death by natural cause.

I posted this in four Facebook Warhammer 40k groups, and these are only the most interesting answers. Point is that majority don't see Astartes as waste of resources but true might of Imperial and Mankind Military force.

ಠ_ಠ

The true might of humanity armed forces is the Guard.

 Bobthehero wrote:
ಠ_ಠ

The true might of humanity armed forces is the Guard.

This really is it, the overwhelmingly vast majority if the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine, and yet the Imperium endures. The SM's matter because they're forced to matter, militarily, even accounting for their speed and power armor and all that, they're total might that takes centuries to build for each chapter, is roughly equivalent to a few hours of recruiting for the IG/IN. The SM's matter mainly just because GW says so and that's about it.

We all know that brother Bobthehero, but as it was stated before no matter how powerful the Guard is there are some enemies that they simply cannot defeat because they are wide stretched across the galaxy.
Guard is powerful but Astartes stand as true might of Mankind as they themselves are Mankind's ultimate weapons against it's enemies. In some wars simple companies of marines did what entire army groups of the Guard couldn't. And that is where the real vale is.

Just two examples from fluff:
Siege of Vraks - no matter how hard Krieg tried to break heretic lines they have to request Astartes help in the end so that they could breach enemy defenses and close the breach around main city ( Chapters involved were Red Scorpions and Dark Angels ).
Armageddon 1'st War - Angron attacked the planet with army of Berzerkers and Emperor knows how many traitors. Space Wolves and later Grey Knights helped and the day was won. Space Wolves involved because only they could effectively stop attacks from Khorne Berzerkers and Daemons and later Grey Knights arrived because only they have the power to defeat Daemon army and Daemon Primarch ( and one of the strongest ones I might add ).

But seriously tis thread is getting ridiculous, asking why Astartes are important for the Imperium is like asking why Inquisition is important for the Imperium. They all have their roles and they both use most effective way to lose several million less Guardsmen so that they can be used on other places that are in need of assistance.

Simple - they exists because they are foundation of 40k universe,everyone else is "sideshow"....and that's a FACT....

IMHO GW would rather kill SoB then any first founding chapter.....

sorry @Lynata but let's be realistic and view the universe from a ugly consumer view....

 DarthMarko wrote:
Simple - they exists because they are foundation of 40k universe

I believe you're confusing the Space Marines with money.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Simple - they exists because they are foundation of 40k universe

I believe you're confusing the Space Marines with money.

Exactly that...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.

Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?

How is their use justified?

Eh, I could Agree.. BUT i do think that Space Marine should still be in use, although not nearly as many chapters. I would like to say that about 10, good chapers of marines is about all you need. The best use I could say with marines would honestly be if the Imperial Guard used them much like the UNSC uses SPARTAN II's in Halo. Assigning a marine or a few or maybe even a squad to help out(Or in same drastic cases lead) a spearhead or special operation needed for victory. despite all the brotherhood marines have, I belive they are best used in conjunction with the Imperial army and divide equally throughout a force. I also think that a whole BATTLE COMPANY or ARMY of marines is only ever used when it is REALLY NEEDED. Think about it for a second. All the times that a bunch of companies were dispatched to face a force, it was apart of some big war or crusade. on that note Crusading chapters and as i said about equal divion of marines in Imperial forces are the most cost-effective uses of marines.

 Bobthehero wrote:
ಠ_ಠ

The true might of humanity armed forces is the Guard.

Nope, it's the imperial navy

That's more or less true, yeah. Air control is probably the most vital part of combat in 40k.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
We all know that brother Bobthehero, but as it was stated before no matter how powerful the Guard is there are some enemies that they simply cannot defeat because they are wide stretched across the galaxy.

Except that the SM's are practically nowhere and the IG is everywhere, and can concentrate *way* more force and firepower when they want to.

Guard is powerful but Astartes stand as true might of Mankind as they themselves are Mankind's ultimate weapons against it's enemies.

Um...how so?

In some wars simple companies of marines did what entire army groups of the Guard couldn't. And that is where the real vale is.

Which usually either boils down to a completely incompetent commander for plots sake on the IG side, or amounts to a hyperbolic "space marines are immune to all attacks and never die and win!" on the SM side. Most fluff like that amounts to bolter porn, Brotherhood of the Snake being an excellent example.

It also usually involved enemies that for some inexplicable reason are entirely incapable of maneuver, as marine forces tend to be very small and thus extremely susceptible to being encircled, cut off, and pounded to destruction by artillery or simply waited out.

Just two examples from fluff:
Siege of Vraks - no matter how hard Krieg tried to break heretic lines they have to request Astartes help in the end so that they could breach enemy defenses and close the breach around main city ( Chapters involved were Red Scorpions and Dark Angels ).

The SM's refused to engage heretics in the beginning, they wouldn't go in until the IG had already landed and been at war for years.

With regards to the spaceport, the IG simply weren't allocated the resources to engage the spaceport that the DA's attacked. Even then, the DA's left behind like a third of the chapter as dead on Vraks in a single engagemen. At that rate there's no way they'd be combat effective more than once a century at best unless they drove themselves to extinction, which would have occurred long ago.

The Red Scorpions simply held a breach that was already forced in the wall so the IG reinforcements could get into position to secure it. Valuable yes, but these aren't things the guard are entirely incapable of and aren't actions the SM's could sustain more than once every few decades or they'd be destroyed at the rate it takes to train new recruits.

For the resources used in creating and maintaining such SM chapters just for such engagements that'd be needed far more often than once every few decades, they could have thousands of more IG regiments instead that could have aided in accomplishing those goals and more ;P

Armageddon 1'st War - Angron attacked the planet with army of Berzerkers and Emperor knows how many traitors. Space Wolves and later Grey Knights helped and the day was won.

With millions upon millions of Imperial Guard and PDF soldiers doing most of the fighting

Space Wolves involved because only they could effectively stop attacks from Khorne Berzerkers and Daemons and later Grey Knights arrived because only they have the power to defeat Daemon army and Daemon Primarch ( and one of the strongest ones I might add ).

The GK's are a bit different than standard marines, having specialized tools and knowlege to defeat things that are otherwise largely immune to simple violence, like daemonically enhanced Primarchs.

But seriously tis thread is getting ridiculous, asking why Astartes are important for the Imperium is like asking why Inquisition is important for the Imperium. They all have their roles and they both use most effective way to lose several million less Guardsmen so that they can be used on other places that are in need of assistance.

the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.

Vaktathi...

This is not who is better: Space Marines or Imperial Guard thread - but are the Astartes needed at all to the Imperium.

Guard is powerful but numbers are useless in some battles, sure the Guard is holding the line but who is coming to help them when they are about to get overwhelmed or destroyed?

Guard is Shield and Hammer, Astartes are wrath and Sword and they both do their part for the Emperor.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's more or less true, yeah. Air control is probably the most vital part of combat in 40k.

I agree. And without starting some debate thing, Think about it this way: If a country didn't have a good navy, how could they possibly stop pirates, smuggling or, god forbid this but, an attack on soil? the sea ain't all that different from space. a planet is land.. but all do have their uses, the Imperium, by this point pretty much needs all that they can get, even if they could have thrived without it before. The Imperuim is slowly crumbling after all.

 Vaktathi wrote:
the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.

Please stop I will die of laughter... All that Guard that can be trained from 1.000.000 Astartes cannot stop some of the most dire treats to the Imperium.
1/3 of them can be converted to Chaos while traitor Legions with their Daemon Primarchs and Daemonic army's finish off the rest in bloodbath.

They would be useless against large Tyranid incursions or Necron uprising, the Orks would overwhelm them if they gather large enough WARGHHH.
In shortm wit honly IG the Imeprium deathrate would rise and they woudl start losing more Guard Regiment than they woudl be able to train and transport. That woudl lower the moral all across the Imperium and many planets would leave from Imperium.

Astartes win those battles that would otherwise tight more Guard or destroy more Guard that could be used elsewhere.

And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the issue is that the SM's are too few to have the effect they'd be described as having, and those same resources could go to creating and maintaining far larger forces of IG units that would be of even more value, especially as they don't take decades to build and train.

Please stop I will die of laughter... All that Guard that can be trained from 1.000.000 Astartes cannot stop some of the most dire treats to the Imperium.
1/3 of them can be converted to Chaos while traitor Legions with their Daemon Primarchs and Daemonic army's finish off the rest in bloodbath.

They would be useless against large Tyranid incursions or Necron uprising, the Orks would overwhelm them if they gather large enough WARGHHH.
In shortm wit honly IG the Imeprium deathrate would rise and they woudl start losing more Guard Regiment than they woudl be able to train and transport. That woudl lower the moral all across the Imperium and many planets would leave from Imperium.

Astartes win those battles that would otherwise tight more Guard or destroy more Guard that could be used elsewhere.

Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.

And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.

And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.

Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.

 FJ wrote:


Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.

And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.

And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.

Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.

I didn't mean to disrespect I just gave the facts.

Marines cannot be shield, they don't hold the line - Guard is the one who is holding the line.

Every Guardsmen is a professional solder that would make our NAVY SEALS and SAS look like noobs, but they live in universe where their rifle that can punch trough solid concrete cannot kill Ork from several shots. And even if they are professional solders they die in millions and are used as meat shields by their commanders. Grimdark is it not...?

And of course, Mariens are in every aspect better than Guardsmen. But they need Guard to hold the line and do the actual fight while Marines flank the enemy, help the Guardsmen break the heavily defended line, destroy enemy supplies and eliminate enemy commanders.

Marines win battles while Guard win wars, it has been that since the times of Great Crusade and it contained to the 41'st millennium. And it will last many more millenniums..
One simple cannot go without another, and suggstin otherwise is simply foolish. Imperium is like a fragile body with all it's organization making it whole, take one out and the others soon fall with it.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!

It required the direct intervention of the Chaos Gods themselves to manage that feat.

And want to know something else?

Far more normal mortals turned heretic during the Horus Heresy than Space Marines.

Magnus attacked the Fang with two million of the Spireguard he whisked away from Prospero during the Heresy.

That's more than the fighting force of all the Legions combined.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!

Yeah, that will be a little hard with all the prayers and Chaplain and Inquisitors... and not to mention mental protection against corruption that the average Guardsmen lacks...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Vaktathi...

This is not who is better: Space Marines or Imperial Guard thread - but are the Astartes needed at all to the Imperium.

Right...and ultimately, they're too few in number and too often they win literally "just because". Their power level, role, capabilities and feats are all extremely dependent on author, and ultimately, from a realistic perspective, they aren't needed, because they're already so rare as to never be available in 99% of conflicts or more, and quickly exhausted and destroyed even when they are.

Guard is powerful but numbers are useless in some battles, sure the Guard is holding the line but who is coming to help them when they are about to get overwhelmed or destroyed?

The Stormtrooper corps and their numerous equivalents such as the Kasrkin, the billions of other IG regiments out there, the Imperial Navy, etc.

Guard is Shield and Hammer, Astartes are wrath and Sword and they both do their part for the Emperor.

Again, the issue is, back to the OP's original question, are the SM's really needed? In their given numbers, they're simply too rare to realistically have any major effect on the galactic stage. They may save a battle here, hold a line there, but ultimately from a strategic perspective they're irrelevant because they're effectively never around, when they are their availability is not reliable and their actions uncontrollable, and they're so few and so quickly exhausted as a military resource.


They only reason they're needed is as a plot device to build a Fantasy narrative around, nothing more.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 FJ wrote:


Well, I dunno.. I always viewed it as Imperial Guard is the Hammer and Space Marines as the shield.

And I can't say that Space Marines are THAT good. Now, keep in mind , I LOVE Space Marines to death, but even I accept that their numbers are too little to tackle on anything. with all that ''We need both IG and SM'' aside, Marines are amazing, but even a marine could be taken down as fast as a guardsmen.

And give the guardsment a break, bro. Saying a Guarmsen's life span is that short is like saying they are trained like ideots.. Guardsmen are just like modern-day soldiers, they are not stupid.

Too many times are people always viewing Guardsmen as bad because they only ever compare things to marines.

I didn't mean to disrespect I just gave the facts.

Marines cannot be shield, they don't hold the line - Guard is the one who is holding the line.


Every Guardsmen is a professional solder that would make our NAVY SEALS and SAS look like noobs, but they live in universe where their rifle that can punch trough solid concrete cannot kill Ork from several shots. And even if they are professional solders they die in millions and are used as meat shields by their commanders. Grimdark is it not...?

And of course, Mariens are in every aspect better than Guardsmen. But they need Guard to hold the line and do the actual fight while Marines flank the enemy, help the Guardsmen break the heavily defended line, destroy enemy supplies and eliminate enemy commanders.

Marines win battles while Guard win wars, it has been that since the times of Great Crusade and it contained to the 41'st millennium. And it will last many more millenniums..
One simple cannot go without another, and suggstin otherwise is simply foolish. Imperium is like a fragile body with all it's organization making it whole, take one out and the others soon fall with it.

Hehe, there was no disrespect.

I completely agree with you in all accounts. Although I'm not talking about what the guard literally do in battle (hold the line and whatnot) but that they are the hammer in the respect of an unstoppable, hard hitting and overwhelming force.

Marines are the same kind of thing, but much, much more precise and to the point. Marines are more like the guys to go kill the enemy leader and place bombs in enemy naval ships orbiting a world, while the Navy fights them and the Guard goes all out on the main front.

I just still think marines are kinda given too much praise... I'm not, in any way, the kind of person to point out those ugly truths about how GW likes to make there poster boys the best, but I still like to think marines are not as nigh-unstoppable as they are made out to be.. I may be a bit of a nostalgia-freak when i say this, but I just like the Rogue Trader days of Marines being more.. human?

And @ Vaktathi: I see marines as always doing the things no end ever sees, not that they are too rare.. like i said, they do the super important, suicidal and crazy jobs a normal man normally would fall short... not all of them have to be headlong in a battle. Which is why they are worth the money they put into them.