Why do Space Marines even exist?

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**pm713**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrotherOfBone wrote:
@the ancient.

That was not the point I was making. The point I was making is that people are saying that Space Marines can work in x environment, or do this, or do that, when in actuality they're not special in their ability to do what a trained Gard unit can also do, for a lot less hassle and resources (getting marines to do what you want is a ballache).

Never said there wasn't a huge difference to their equipment. even in 7th Edition this is apparent. Manpower>Power Armour. Manpower>Bolt;.

Yes, but they're not needed now. Why not just scrap the marines alltogether? They're a useless and less superior throwback to a now-unnecessary project.

It's like fielding Sherman Tanks in the US army now because some of them still work. They're still not as good as the modern-day equivalent.

Which regiment can effectively fight Orks in close combat or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors or survive in the vacuum of space at all in their standard wargear?

At no point did I say 'in standard wargear'. Also, look at Catachans, then look at Elysians, then look at Death Korps, Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, Cadian Hazardous Environment Troops and Cadians and then tell me what Standard Wargear is. There are Guard Regiments that can fight Orks in close combat, or equal the Eldar Aspect Warriors, or survive the vacuum of space. Also, Marines don't best Orks in combat, just doesn't happen, not a 'standard' marine anyway.

None of those are named and it's a fact that they cannot because they are inferior in any way to Aspect Warriors. You'll find they do beat Orks if you read lore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Guardsmen are very limited. You can say there's a regiment for everything all you like but shockingly this one regiment can't cover the Imperium and there aren't enough regiments like them to do it either. A Space Marine Chapter is better because not only are they better they can deal with all the situations equally well. Catachans are only good in a jungle. Space Marines can be good in and out of it.
Catachans are not only good in jungle terrain, they excell in dense terrain. Cadians are ok wherever you put them. Most regiments are good at different things but can do just about anything. For example a valhallan really comes into his own in the cold but can do jst about anything an infantryman can. That and you forget the fact that in a given area the are scores more guardsmen than marines, your lucky if there is one company in the area. Also arent chapters specialized like regiments? There are millions more regiments tgan chapters making the imperial guard much more conventional.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in th iom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.

Mainly because they die so fast you need that many.

**Void__Dragon**

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in th iom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.

They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.

The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.

**AtlasTelamon**

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in th iom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.

They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.

The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.

abnett seems to disagree, as does mitchell. A regiment with the smallest modicum of experience can deploy in several hours. A good sized fleet can put that many down in a week.

**Mr Morden**

The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

The sheer amount of men in the guard renders marines irrelevant, there are only 1000 chapters which means at any given time there is roughly 1,000,000 marines available in th iom. The guard put that many men down on a planetary invasion in one week.

They can't even deploy in a week. It takes several months.

The Space Marines are up and ready to go in a day.
abnett seems to disagree, as does mitchell. A regiment with the smallest modicum of experience can deploy in several hours. A good sized fleet can put that many down in a week.

I think there is a difference between being ready to deploy and deploying - well trained Guards Regiments and support teams can do it swiftly and be ready to fight, but they have to be in the right place at the right time - which they are often not and the Navy vessels need to ready to transport them.

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

**Ogiwan**

Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

**pm713**

Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

**lyrken**

I would like to point out that as a fighting force Space marines are only shadow of their former selves and they are that way for the sake of the Imperium.

**Ogiwan**

pm713 wrote:
Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.

My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.

**Mr Morden**

Politicis and Belief also effect the decisions made by Imperial Commanders and so most (Be they Guard, Sororitas or Astartes) would in fact act to defend the Shrine World - after any Forge World worthy of the name normally has at the very least elements of a Titan Legion and its supporting troops to defend it.

Sector Command would have to receive the call, look at the resources available, ability to get there, other commitments and calls for aid, what importance the target has respectively to the Imperium, the Sector and the varied power groups in the Sector. They then need to get all the varied arms of the Imperium to act together and go to the target - if the right resources are in fact available for transportation and the environment,

The Astartes may or may not respond but they will almost certainly be quicker by a significant degree of magnitude precisely because they are independent.

**pm713**

Ogiwan wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.

My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.

Or they'll get glory by defending the Forge World.

**Ashiraya**

Ogiwan wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.

My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.

There is little implying that what you are saying is true.

**TiamatRoar**

Yea, especially considering that Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy aren't typically on friendly terms.

Honestly I doubt the scenario comes up very often anyways unless a Black Crusade or WAAAGH is going on where EVERYTHING everywhere is being attacked at the same time, I suppose.

**rednecroncryptek**

You could see it like this:

Marines are the super elite tough asses in a universe full of super elite tough asses. If you, god forbid, examine the Space Marine game, Imperial Guard are the main bulk of the army, but require the Space Marines for special insertion forces. I dont know how to explain it, its right in my mind, but they are the rapier to the IG broadsword. They are the knife in the heart while the IG are the bludgeons. IG in the end do the most of the fighting, but the Space Marines fight the tougher and more difficult battles. Damnos is important as the IG were being annihilated. Marines are the mailed fist of the Emperor. Plus we have to remember back in the day (28 000 years from now) they were the army, there were millions of Marines. 2 Million - 10 milliion i cant remember. So there was once a proper use.

**megatombuscus**

space marines are powerful

**Phiasco II**

Uh, as super soldier shock troops? As an unstoppable extension of the Emperors will? As gods to bestride the battlefields of the galaxy?

**The Home Nuggeteer**

Phiasco II wrote:
Uh, as super soldier shock troops? As an unstoppable extension of the Emperors will? As gods to bestride the battlefields of the galaxy?

Someone read their codex cover to cover! This pleases your spiritual leige.

**Ashiraya**

Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?

The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)

**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?

The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)

Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.

And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.

**BlaxicanX**

Uhh..

**Ashiraya**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?

The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)

Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.

And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.

Of course. I never said otherwise. But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops), so they can appeal to similar audiences, except that Marines require far more phlebotinum to function. Which one is preferable is down to taste.

The fact that Spartans actually are a remotely possible future instead of being space-magic is the reason I pointed them out at all. For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.

**Peregrine**

Ashiraya wrote:
For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.

Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.

As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:

But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.

**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, if people wanted Marines that are not demigods of war, maybe you should take a look at Halo?

The Spartans are a lot like Space Marines, but in a setting that is sci-fi instead of fantasy, and the limits of their numbers is acknowledged (There's like a few hundred of them, which means they are not an actual army but rather leaders and operatives, despite the setting being far far smaller.)

Except Spartans would be butchered by Space Marines.

And I do believe Halo occured in the 2500's so that is really about 500 years in the future while Space Marines are created in the 30th millennium.

Of course. I never said otherwise. But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops), so they can appeal to similar audiences, except that Marines require far more phlebotinum to function. Which one is preferable is down to taste.

The fact that Spartans actually are a remotely possible future instead of being space-magic is the reason I pointed them out at all. For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.

Well, I don't approve of the "space magical" primarchs, but SM's are biologically enhanced soldiers. The entire process is purely biological and 39,000 years in the future, it might be possible. Spartans are more simply enhanced soldiers and not quite as powerful as Space Marines but they have the advantage of being slightly easier to create. Though if I remember correctly, there were still a lot of problems with the Spartan programs and it led to the severe decrease in spartan operations.

**Psienesis**

Ogiwan wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ogiwan wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

It does not really matter which Astartes unit is nearby - they are normally able respond to any emergency swiftly and in their own vessel.

Yeah, but the problem is if they would be willing to respond. Space Marines fight for their glory, and the glory of the Emperor (Emprah!) They are independent of the chain of command, and choose where they want to fight, not where the Imperium of Man needs them to fight.

Because many Chapters seek glory in the Emperors name by avoiding battle.

I think I'm detecting sarcasm, but I'm not sure.

My point being that a Space Marine chapter if given the choice between defending a strategically unimportant Shrine World, and a Forge World would go defend the Shrine World, for the whole "Glory of the Emprah!" thing, rather than defending the world that, ya know, supplies munitions to the subsector.

Would depend on the Chapter but, also, a Shrine World is never "unimportant". Those are places that, for whatever reasons, are considered sacred and holy to the Ecclesiarchy... you know, the system of faith and belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor that holds Humanity together.

But, no, a Space Marine Chapter would not be tasked to defend a Shrine World that was not in danger over a Forge World that was. That's simply not how that works (and, also, the Sisters of Battle defend Shrine Worlds. It's what they do.)

**Lord Tarkin**

Peregrine wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.

Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.

As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:

But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.

Uh, guess you didn't learn much about Chaos.

**Swastakowey**

Peregrine wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
For example, I strongly suspect Peregrine and Swastakowey would prefer Spartans.

Actually I prefer the Starship Troopers style of power armor: awesome elites that are still mortal. I don't really know much about Halo, besides the fact that it was a mediocre console FPS.

As for why I like 40k, I'll copy/paste my reply to the same post in the other thread:

But Halo doesn't have the rest of the 40k setting. And low-end space marines fit the setting perfectly once you remember that the Imperium is not a rational empire that always uses the most efficient tools they can get. They're an insane and sadistic theocracy that often seems to exist for the sole purpose of extending the misery and suffering of humanity for as long as possible before a final, merciful death. They build giant cathedral-ships to worship their corpse god, they sacrifice millions of lives (along with vast amounts of weapons) to protect irrelevant religious shrines, they ban science and engineering as unforgivable heresy in favor of tank designs that a 1920s army would consider obsolete garbage, etc. Space marines are just one more part of that trend. They're an obscene waste of resources while simultaneously being too rare to matter 99.999% of the time, but god says to build space marines! Welcome to life in a dystopia.

I agree.

I hate spartans, I think they have shields that stop bullets? So stupid. Can survive falls by locking up or something? Also stupid etc.

I too prefer Starship Troopers style of things. But I would prefer to just have normal grunts 99% of the time, with elite being soldiers with guys with experience or even (and it may sound odd) but those mech things in the Avatar movie. Space Marines would be cooler like that, because its sensible and has a purpose somewhat.

Usually, if its a video game, it sucks.

**Peregrine**

Psienesis wrote:
Those are places that, for whatever reasons, are considered sacred and holy to the Ecclesiarchy... you know, the system of faith and belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor that holds Humanity together.

You know, the system of delusion and idiocy that holds humanity back and dooms it to a slow decline full of unimaginable suffering, and eventual extinction.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ashiraya wrote:
But there are plenty of obvious similarities (Huge soldiers in special heavy armour that have been given surgical enhancements and now acts as super-elite troops)

Seems like the generic description of space marine, irregardless of setting. Well, the surgical enhancement is not always here, but the rest works from Doom to Starcraft to Starship troopers (at least the book).

**BlaxicanX**

Space Marines don't worship the Emperor as a God, sans exceptions like the Black Templars.

So they probably wouldn't give a single feth about a Shrine world compared to a Mechanicus world.

**Psienesis**

Some do. At last count, some 15 "canon" Chapters are listed as having a belief in the God-Emperor as a divine being.

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement)