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 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
So, in Peregrines opinion, IG and SM shouldn't exist, just use orbital bombs.

Ah yes, another constructive post from you. Perhaps instead of posting nonsense like this you could read my previous post where I explained why IG are useful even though orbital bombardment exists? Here, I'll even re-post it for you:

Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.

In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.

Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave? Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave?

They're capable of it, just like the entire US army would be capable of tracking and killing a single bank robber. That doesn't mean that they're an efficient use of resources. You don't need to send priceless space marines for such a minor task when you have much cheaper weapons that can do the job.

Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.

The orbital bomb isn't pointless. It's much cheaper than the marines, can wait patiently as long as it takes before it is used, and will kill everything in the xenos/heretic hospital (mentioned in the original scenario) as it destroys the command bunker. The orbital bombardment is only pointless if you assume that we're operating under real-world rules where civilian casualties are to be avoided at all costs, instead of a nice bonus. You don't need a precision strike that only kills the commander when everything in a 50-mile radius is going to be killed anyway once you win the war.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave?

They're capable of it, just like the entire US army would be capable of tracking and killing a single bank robber. That doesn't mean that they're an efficient use of resources. You don't need to send priceless space marines for such a minor task when you have much cheaper weapons that can do the job.

Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.

The orbital bomb isn't pointless. It's much cheaper than the marines, can wait patiently as long as it takes before it is used, and will kill everything in the xenos/heretic hospital (mentioned in the original scenario) as it destroys the command bunker. The orbital bombardment is only pointless if you assume that we're operating under real-world rules where civilian casualties are to be avoided at all costs, instead of a nice bonus. You don't need a precision strike that only kills the commander when everything in a 50-mile radius is going to be killed anyway once you win the war.

The only other issue with Orbital or other bombing is that you don't have confirmation of the kill - which the Astartes can provide......which may be essential / priority

So, Astartes are just way less efficient assassins?

One major problem with orbital bombardment is collateral damage. Civilian casualties may not matter but manufactorums and all kinds if structures and tech-relics are literally irreplaceable in the technologically stagnant Imperium. If you drop a few megaton bombs on the Dark Eldar running around in there, you may kill them, but you are also destroying invaluable technology.

And what if there's orbital cannons preventing anything bigger than a Thunderhawk getting close?

 Ashiraya wrote:
One major problem with orbital bombardment is collateral damage. Civilian casualties may not matter but manufactorums and all kinds if structures and tech-relics are literally irreplaceable in the technologically stagnant Imperium. If you drop a few megaton bombs on the Dark Eldar running around in there, you may kill them, but you are also destroying invaluable technology.

And what if there's orbital cannons preventing anything bigger than a Thunderhawk getting close?

orbital, those cannons cant reach whatever is pooping out the bomb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, Astartes are just way less efficient assassins?

if the defense of space marines is assassination then they are redundant.

Redundant, and sub par.

So I am going to bring in to this argument, the source that originated power armor for the reason of why Space Marines exist: Starship Troopers. This is where we see Power Armor come in force in the sci-fi scene and I think Robert Heinlein did the best at showing what a power armored infantry is the best at in Starship Troopers and that is as people have been pointing out precise strikes where orbital bombardments would fail. Heinlein brings up this point as Rico explains why the Navy just didn't pummel planets into hell and that was because that would utterly destroy the purpose of using a planet for it's resources and bring the populace there into compliance. For that, ground troops, especially those in power armor can shock and awe a populace into compliance as well as perform surgical strikes cannons can't touch.

Now let us look at the original purpose of Space Marines in the Great Crusade: they were there to unite humanity under one banner to have a galaxy spanning Imperium of Man so orbital bombardments would of been impractical in most cases since the Imperium wasn't trying to kill all of the non-compliant planets but bring them into compliance and fealty of the Imperium who to better do this than power armored super humans to shock and awe a populace into realizing they were out matched. To this, the Space Marine Legions were highly effective at doing and thus they could bring planets into the Imperium with their resources intact.

So the Horus Heresy happens and this plan is utterly screwed but they are still useful since CSM tears through AM like they were paper, sometimes you still have to fight fire with fire send in SM. An Ork Warboss is inciting another WAAAGH! and to send in a vulnerable assassin would be impractical so send in SM to cut off the head and stop the WAAAGH! because they can be dropped in the heart and know they will survive. Still want to save a planet even with a Chaos incursion? Have AM bombard a fortified position while sending in a surgical strike of SM to push from the inside out, a job regular humans more than likely wouldn't be able to do without drop pods and deep strike.

They are conditioned to be a special strike force to seize specific strategic assets that regular troops wouldn't be able to do as quickly or efficiently, not fight a prolonged war. Even in modern military strategy this is seen, it is the reason why we have special forces vs. regular troops and in most of the fluff this is how the SM are used as well. You hear about the AM holding a position while the SM go in to get it but what makes more of an exciting story? The entrenched warfare or the elite force that seized a specific tactical objective that broke the enemy?

I wouldn't use an orbital bomb or terminators to take out 1 enemy commander. I would send in some scouts with sniper rifles. In the Ultramarine's case, Telion and a squad of scout snipers. 1 shot....case closed. Scouts excel at assassination. There is no reason to send in terminators or use orbital bombs.

That's just the best way in my honest opinion.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

1.) The life support systems offer protection as well. So while a SoB may be able to take an equal amount of shells to her unexposed areas or armored areas, which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored so again protected less, they are protected less against every single thing besides blunt force.

2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.

A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ah yes, another constructive post from you.

Seems like a perfectly apt response to those ridiculous straw-man arguments.

 Peregrine wrote:
If all you need to do is kill something then just nuke it from orbit.

I don't know if you are wilfully obtuse but you seem to have missed the point several times which is ironic since you've already said this:

...marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

If you don't just need to kill something then you need a boots on the ground approach in which case, as you've already pointed out, Marines smash their way in, secure their target and then withdraw.

Because if every engagement ended with lance strikes from space the setting would suck and have less chain weapons.

That's why the space marines exist.

jakejackjake wrote:
1.) The life support systems offer protection as well.

Well, it offers life support. But the protection level is the same. It is written fairly square in the book!

jakejackjake wrote:
which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored

They have their whole body armored. Except sometime the head when they remove the helmet, but do marines not do that all the time too?

jakejackjake wrote:
2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.

That is what I am doing, I am saying fluffwise the Sisters of Battle armor provides the same level of protection than the Astartes power armor because the fluff from the codex says that it is so in the fluff.

jakejackjake wrote:
A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.

Only if you do not count stuff like, say, assassins as soldiers. Because they sure are worth much, much more. Same for good AM generals. Those are worth so much more than a tactical marines.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only place it's ever been "equal" is on the tabletop

No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.

1.) The life support systems offer protection as well. So while a SoB may be able to take an equal amount of shells to her unexposed areas or armored areas, which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored so again protected less, they are protected less against every single thing besides blunt force.

2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.

A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.

Sisters' PA is equally protective as a Space Marine's PA, in GW's own words, as presented in Codex: Witch-Hunters and other publications. What it lacks is the full neural interaction between the human body and the armor that the Black Carapace provides, which also offers further strength-enhancing bonuses. The Sisters lack these and some of the specialized sub-systems of the armor... but it stops bullets just as well, it offers full environmental sealing as well, and allows them to operate in a vacuum.

In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.

Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?

The ultimate point being, I think, is that the argument against the Space Marines suggests that there are too few of them, and at too great a cost, to be effective in defending something the size of the Imperium.

In reality or, rather, if we were to apply real-world logistics to the question, this is undeniably true. There are too few Space Marines spread far too thinly across the galaxy to accomplish anything of overall worth or note. Nothing the Space Marines do in this scenario cannot be accomplished by the Imperial Guard and/or the Imperial Navy, and those two organizations can accomplish more than the Space Marines can.

However, 40K doesn't run on real-world logistics. The Space Marines are effective because we are told they are effective by the studio, and that is where it ends.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sisters' PA is equally protective as a Space Marine's PA, in GW's own words, as presented in Codex: Witch-Hunters and other publications.

Which "other publications"? And nowhere is the language "equal" in Witch Hunters, it is "same degree of protection. When the term "degree" is used to define things, it refers to broad categories, not specific measurements (see examples: here, here, and here. A "degree of protection" is a range, not a specific value. So power armor all offers the same "degree of protection" that is higher than carapace, but lower than Terminator and other heavier armors.

I looked it up once, and that's the only source I found that used terminology to suggest anything close to equivalency, and again that's only via a selective interpretation, since the book does not use any kind of explicit language. I mean, I'm more than happy to be wrong, but I think this "other publications" isn't the case. Any time that power armor for unaugmented humans, including Sisters, is brought up in alternate publications, it's certainly comparable and superior to lesser armors like Carapace, but Marine armor is always statted superior. I mean, every rule system that has expanded beyond a D6 save system has given bonuses to Marine armor above and beyond the stats for "regular" power armor, and none of them have given equivalent bonuses to Sisters armor.

Which isn't really a surprise. Space Marines are bigger and can carry more plating. It's just common sense that between two mass-produced armor types (Marine power armor and Sister power armor) that the larger, less weight sensitive system will be outfitted with more plating.

This whole argument gets kind of pathetic, to be honest. Space Marines are biologically engineered transhuman warriors, designed specifically for the most harsh of combat. They're bigger, stronger, faster, and more durable than regular human beings, and they've been designed specifically to interact with powered armor suits that have also been specifically designed around their enhanced capabilities. Sisters of Battle are just extensively brainwashed religious fanatics with a good physical training program and a deep-pockets sponsor. I mean, it's not even like being "not as good as Space Marines" is even a strike against them. That's basically everybody.

We're down to one book's ambiguous language ("same degree of protection") versus at least three or four other books' specific language ("An additional three points of armor", etc). And I know it was a Sisters player who has championed the idea of the "everything is canon" on this forum, and that makes sense since it basically facilitates her opinion nicely, lol. And individual players are obviously allowed to decide which "head canon" to follow. But if we're going to discuss this topic as a whole, then we should be doing it with regards to all of the material at hand, not just one small portion of it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
...every rule system that has expanded beyond a D6 save system has given bonuses to Marine armor above and beyond the stats for "regular" power armor, and none of them have given equivalent bonuses to Sisters armor.

Pretty much this.

Just to add some sources:

It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the most advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace...

Codex: Witch Hunters page 19

...this lighter power armour provides excellent protection and increased strength...

Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs page 118

...Adeptus Astartes patterns [are] the pinnacle of power armour technology...

Deathwatch page 160

Space Marines are the most notable users of power armour, along with Inquisitorial agents and the Adeptus Sororitas. The latter users lack the special Black Carapace implanted in Space Marines, allowing the armour to fully meld with the user. As such, many of the strength augmenting and advanced support systems are not possible and are not installed in these lighter suits.

Rogue Trader (FFG) page 139

Then you have the stats:

Blood of Martyrs Sororitas Power Armour - AP7 (8 on body) +10 Strength, +5BS (if issued with a helmet), rebreather, comm-link, heavy weapons treated as braced.

Deathwatch Astartes Power Armour - AP8 (10 on body), +20 Strength, Auto-Senses, Osmotic Gill, Bio-Monitor and Injectors, Vox Link, Magnetized Boot Soles, Nutrient Recycling, Recoil Suppression, Giant Among Men (however, the Black Carapace provides sufficient 'grace' with using the armour that enemies don't get a bonus to hit a Marine), Poor Manual Dexterity.

Inquisitor Power Armour - AP10 for regular PA with no other equipment as available to Inquisitors and the Adepta Sororitas (see Exterminatus #8). AP10 plus several sections reinforced with 3 points of Ablative Armour for the Astartes with a number of items of extra equipment as standard.

I would not use FFG games as a hard canon source, they're not even a part of GW like BL, and their take on fluff deviates quite a bit on GW fluff. They're about on the level of Dawn of War and other such licensed games.

That being said, it is completely possible, that Astartes' armour offers a tiny bit better protection than lighter power armours worn by normal humans such as Inquisitors and Sororitas. But does this really matter?

You do know that FFG turns Sisters into Space Witches and Space Marines into "Movie Marines", where any 5 Space Marines, armed with the standard bolter, can shoot a tank, or any Monstrous Creature, or horde of enemies, apart inside of five rounds without losing a Wound, right?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.

Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?

True, but its not like Telion cant do it. Telion is responsible for sniping two Tau commanders with two well placed bolt shots and practically ending the conflict before it truly started.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.

Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?

......what? Scouts, especially Telion, excel at taking out enemy commanders. A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol.

Lord Tarkin speaks true, its in the Space Marines codex.

 Ultramarine vet wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.

Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?

......what? Scouts, especially Telion, excel at taking out enemy commanders. A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol.

Lord Tarkin speaks true, its in the Space Marines codex.

Did you just say a human assassin does not do a better job than a SM Scout?
Some Imperial organizations disagree.

 Psienesis wrote:
You do know that FFG turns Sisters into Space Witches and Space Marines into "Movie Marines", where any 5 Space Marines, armed with the standard bolter, can shoot a tank, or any Monstrous Creature, or horde of enemies, apart inside of five rounds without losing a Wound, right?

I'm just providing sources and examples so that people can see what these publications actually say and how they then translate that background into stats. If people then choose to dismiss those sources then that is up to them but they can do so properly informed.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Which isn't really a surprise. Space Marines are bigger and can carry more plating.

That does not make sense. The defining characteristic of a power armor is that the armor carry itself. Else you would get penalties to strength rather than bonus to strength when wearing an extremely heavy armor, because that would be exhausting and impairs your movement a lot.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They're bigger, stronger, faster, and more durable than regular human beings, and they've been designed specifically to interact with powered armor suits that have also been specifically designed around their enhanced capabilities.

Hence why they have all the extra gimmicks that do not work on Sisters power armor. Nobody is denying that.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
We're down to one book's ambiguous language ("same degree of protection") versus at least three or four other books' specific language ("An additional three points of armor", etc).

If I recall correctly, someone in this section mentioned how PC astartes power armor and NPC astartes power armor have different stats in one RPG from FFG. If that is confirmed, I would rather focus on fluff than on FFG crunch.

 Gogsnik wrote:
Codex: Witch Hunters page 19

...this lighter power armour provides excellent protection and increased strength...

Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs page 118

...Adeptus Astartes patterns [are] the pinnacle of power armour technology...

Deathwatch page 160

Space Marines are the most notable users of power armour, along with Inquisitorial agents and the Adeptus Sororitas. The latter users lack the special Black Carapace implanted in Space Marines, allowing the armour to fully meld with the user. As such, many of the strength augmenting and advanced support systems are not possible and are not installed in these lighter suits.

Rogue Trader (FFG) page 139

I am going to ask, how does any of those quotes run contrary to this statement:
“Sororitas power armor provide the same protection as Astartes power armor, but does not have all the gimmicks”?
The first quote says the armor provide excellent protection, and no comparison is made. The second one says the astartes involve more technology, which refers to the additional gimmicks imo, the third one says that the Sororitas power armor does not have the gimmicks because no black carapace to interface with the armor.
They seem to all agree with me. So, there is still the crunch. Can someone confirm the PC vs NPC astartes power armor difference? Because if that is true, this crunch is not worth much…

The protective qualities in FFG's games change between one game and the next, and the specific pattern of PA in question. Black Crusade PA is the same AP as Deathwatch PA, but has different options, and most of its sub-systems don't work (because all CSM PA is broken somehow, and CSM don't have any means to fix it, of course...).

Bolters do various damage from one game to the next, too, and gain or lose various Weapon Qualities, depending on which book you're reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol.

The Vindicare Temple would like a word.

I still think the Space Marines should use some kind of recon/stealth/sniper unit that consists of experienced soldiers, not recruits (Well... Scouts are pretty badass but they are still recruits in comparison to the others).

Scouts are likely to be more-experienced in combat than the vast majority of Guardsmen, to be fair.

Still, the potential gain of a veteran stealth unit is considerable. In fact, I'd argue that veterancy is more important for subtle missions. You can be the most experienced soldier in the Imperium but that won't let you eat more bullets. On the other hand, it can be very helpful for avoiding detection and infiltrating silently, et cetera.

For that kind of operation, there are either specialist Chapters that do that sort of thing, or other Imperial organizations that can perform the role and then provide intel to the Space Marines (Tanith First-And-Only, Vindicare, various DCA, etc.).