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AustonT wrote:I'm sorry I can't hear your point while Mandy Caruso doesn't objectify herself as a fully clothed heroine.

She really wants you to appreciate her for her personality.

She probably does, and I probably would appreciate her personality: She seems to have put a lot of attention to detail into that Red Sonja costume, which appears to border on film-quality levels of construction, which to me indicates both a drive to do well at her craft as well as a love for the work inspired by Robert E. Howard. Here is the source material, for what it's worth:


I've said it before, and I guess it bears repeating: there is a big difference between someone who dresses up in a costume that happens to be scantily-clad, and someone that dresses up in something for the purpose of being objectified.

This is a picture of someone that intends on being objectified:


And this is a picture of someone that wanted to dress up as her favourite Street Fighter II character:

One is dressed up true to the source material, and the other is flaunting herself because she wants people to objectify her. Yet both are wearing equallity revealing costumes. So you should probably stop judging people based on appearance and devoid of context when you're talking about costumes at comic-con.

EDIT: Ya know what, this is a very dividing subject and I don't wanna get involved.

It sure sounds like some people support that gak...

 MrScience wrote:
Unfortunately, it's the daily mail, we can't say what happened.

Honestly I doubt she was acting like Hannah Minx does or anything.

She posted on her tumblr what she encountered.

I'm not really sure ow to navigate tumblr as I don't use it.

 Piston Honda wrote:

 MrScience wrote:
Unfortunately, it's the daily mail, we can't say what happened.

Honestly I doubt she was acting like Hannah Minx does or anything.

She posted on her tumblr what she encountered.

I'm not really sure ow to navigate tumblr as I don't use it.

It's not really an objective view of what happened though.

No one knows how to navigate Tumblr.

I don't see how an objective view could change our understanding of someone being sat down for an interview, and then grilled about their breasts prior to the invocation of audience participation on questions about said breasts.

 Shredsmore wrote:

 MrScience wrote:
I don't get overly sexual cosplays.

I sure don't mind them

(Unless they're guys, but I doubt that comes up too much...)

I just think that this chick wanted attention and publicity, so she dressed up like a tart and then when people started noticing, she tells everyone it is completely innapropriate and uncalled for so she can start a big case, sue, and possibly get rich. This kind of thing is real common. Dunno why this one is gettin' so much hype

Except it's nothing like that at all.

It was a group of guys standing around saying "How big are your tits? Come on, tell us! How big are they? Huh? How big?"

Even if she was a stripper popping ping-pong balls across the room for money, that would still be an inappropriate way to talk to her.

Yes, if you're going to dress out-of-the-ordinary, you have to expect extra attention. Sometimes it's not going to be good attention. But that doesn't give the public carte blanche to be rude, invasive or degrading.

We, as a community, need to get that straight. So that when we are at a convention, we don't act like this guy. So when we see a guy acting like this we can step up and say "Hey dude, that's not cool."

 Kaldor wrote:

It was a group of guys standing around saying "How big are your tits? Come on, tell us! How big are they? Huh? How big?"

Even if she was a stripper popping ping-pong balls across the room for money, that would still be an inappropriate way to talk to her.

Yeah, not so much in that circumstance.

Yeah, strippers engaged in the middle of actual stripper activity don't tend to mind questions about their boobs. At least not from the person/people currently paying them. OTOH Kaldor's got a point that it's certainly possible to harass and be inappropriate toward even a stripper in the middle of stripping. People still have boundaries and deserve certain levels of human courtesy and consideration.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, strippers engaged in the middle of actual stripper activity don't tend to mind questions about their boobs. At least not from the person/people currently paying them. OTOH Kaldor's got a point that it's certainly possible to harass and be inappropriate toward even a stripper in the middle of stripping. People still have boundaries and deserve certain levels of human courtesy and consideration.

True, there are always boundaries, but asking cup size is not the absolute limit thereof.

Sure. But you can make an ass of yourself even in a strip club. The kind of inanity those idiots directed toward Caruso wouldn't fly even in some strip clubs (though others would be fine with it).

 Bromsy wrote:
Guys, let's all take a deep breath and relax.

Then, can we look at the real victims here? Creepy weirdos have like two events they can attend annually and hang out with other creepy weirdos (No offense, which means you legally can't be offended). These events have in recent years been invaded by people who have glommed on to the rising 'coolness' of the subject matter. I mean seriously, how many sweaty nerds, even if they can afford it crash high fashion events? Damned few. So now you have this new crop of attractive people who show up to things like this - which for them is one of 365 days of having fun in a year because hey - they're pretty, and get mad at some doofus who gets to maybe cram this weekend in amongst the 51 others of being disliked and generally ignored and/or denigrated by society at large - and has the audacity to act slightly inappropriate towards some complete stranger who is dressed up as his masturbatory fantasy who he has dreamed about all his life. I mean, yeah, anyone who is not a social idiot knows how to read girls - if she isn't into you lay off. But some of these people, especially in these circumstances can't tell. When I lived over in Germany, I didn't go around calling everyone a bunch of jackasses because their beer wasn't cold enough, they just didn't know any better. I didn't get mad at people because they didn't speak my language, which seems to be what a lot of this boils down to.

No, there's no free space for anyone, social misfit or not, to go about shoving their ass in someone's faces and telling them to spank it. That's not a lack of social graces, that's just being a dick.

And I have no idea why liking comic books and other nerd stuff means a person wants a space where they can act like a particularly loathesome 13 year old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shredsmore wrote:
I just think that this chick wanted attention and publicity, so she dressed up like a tart and then when people started noticing, she tells everyone it is completely innapropriate and uncalled for so she can start a big case, sue, and possibly get rich. This kind of thing is real common. Dunno why this one is gettin' so much hype

Except there is a clear and obvious difference between 'attention' and putting your ass in a girl's face and telling her to spank it.

I refuse to believe you cannot understand that difference.

 sebster wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Guys, let's all take a deep breath and relax.

Then, can we look at the real victims here? Creepy weirdos have like two events they can attend annually and hang out with other creepy weirdos (No offense, which means you legally can't be offended). These events have in recent years been invaded by people who have glommed on to the rising 'coolness' of the subject matter. I mean seriously, how many sweaty nerds, even if they can afford it crash high fashion events? Damned few. So now you have this new crop of attractive people who show up to things like this - which for them is one of 365 days of having fun in a year because hey - they're pretty, and get mad at some doofus who gets to maybe cram this weekend in amongst the 51 others of being disliked and generally ignored and/or denigrated by society at large - and has the audacity to act slightly inappropriate towards some complete stranger who is dressed up as his masturbatory fantasy who he has dreamed about all his life. I mean, yeah, anyone who is not a social idiot knows how to read girls - if she isn't into you lay off. But some of these people, especially in these circumstances can't tell. When I lived over in Germany, I didn't go around calling everyone a bunch of jackasses because their beer wasn't cold enough, they just didn't know any better. I didn't get mad at people because they didn't speak my language, which seems to be what a lot of this boils down to.

No, there's no free space for anyone, social misfit or not, to go about shoving their ass in someone's faces and telling them to spank it. That's not a lack of social graces, that's just being a dick.

And I have no idea why liking comic books and other nerd stuff means a person wants a space where they can act like a particularly loathesome 13 year old.

Look man, I'm not saying that these mouthbreathing misfits deserve some sort of veneration, I'm saying that expecting these weirdos to hold the same social standards as regular people is nonsensical. They legitimately might not get why this isn't okay. And even if they might under normal circumstances - this is comic con, one of the few venues in which these jerks get to act like themselves. If this was a group of aboriginal amazonian tribespeople, their differences would be celebrated, but since they are just a bunch of nerds and dorks, they should just shut up and be like everyone else. Right?

But Bromsy, what you just wrote has nothing to do with the actual story that's the subject of discussion.

Have you ever been to one of these big comic cons? NYCC is the second-biggest after San Diego. This isn't a dingy nerd basement, it's a huge public event and people behave with basic standards of decent conduct, albeit with a bit more silliness and costumes.

Caruso specifically said she has no problem getting looked at, and tolerates the goofy unsocialized dweebs who stare or pull faces. The guy who she got angry at (and who we agree she was right to get angry at) was the guy with a crew and a video camera, who said he wanted to interview her but turned it into a sexual harassment hot-to guide. Which she legitimately called him out on and walked out of when he persisted at it even over her objections.

We're not talking about beating up on the poor nerds, here. We're talking about not making excuses for donkey-caves.

 Mannahnin wrote:
But Bromsy, what you just wrote has nothing to do with the actual story that's the subject of discussion.

Have you ever been to one of these big comic cons? NYCC is the second-biggest after San Diego. This isn't a dingy nerd basement, it's a huge public event and people behave with basic standards of decent conduct, albeit with a bit more silliness and costumes.

Caruso specifically said she has no problem getting looked at, and tolerates the goofy unsocialized dweebs who stare or pull faces. The guy who she got angry at (and who we agree she was right to get angry at) was the guy with a crew and a video camera, who said he wanted to interview her but turned it into a sexual harassment hot-to guide. Which she legitimately called him out on and walked out of when he persisted at it even over her objections.

We're not talking about beating up on the poor nerds, here. We're talking about not making excuses for donkey-caves.

Yes,I have been to the Chicago CC plenty of times, which I would argue is far more of a nerd fest than the costals. I am not and have not argued that the behavior expressed towards her is fair or reasonable. What I said was that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to meet the same social standards. Some people cannot deal with women. The general expectation from, and I speak loosely here "Your" crowd is that these social outcasts should go die in a fire, or at least have the decency to never interact with the group with which they are fascinated and confused by (attractive women) - unless of course they can meet minimum standards in which they were never versed. You seem to think that unreasoning fear and avoidance is somehow morally preferable to confusion and a possible misstep. Whereas I feel that any interaction should be looked on as charity and a learning experience. Who knows what lesson might allow some socially awkward individual to land a slightly less social awkward individual with lady parts? I can't find an argument in which her stance improves the situation of anyone aside from her. It's not as if she is a pilgrim, leading the way when it comes to strong, assertive women in the con circuit.

 Bromsy wrote:
Look man, I'm not saying that these mouthbreathing misfits deserve some sort of veneration, I'm saying that expecting these weirdos to hold the same social standards as regular people is nonsensical. They legitimately might not get why this isn't okay. And even if they might under normal circumstances - this is comic con, one of the few venues in which these jerks get to act like themselves. If this was a group of aboriginal amazonian tribespeople, their differences would be celebrated, but since they are just a bunch of nerds and dorks, they should just shut up and be like everyone else. Right?

No-one is telling them off for quoting Monty Python or making fun of the guy who forgot the THAC0 of a third level bard. 'Nerds will be nerds' is an argument with decent argument for it, but it stops a mile short of shoving your ass in a girl's face and telling her to spank it.

And, speaking as a nerd, I'm not particularly on board with the idea that puerile misogyny is something that I actually want as part of nerd culture. I agree with you that within nerd culture there is no shortage of socially stunted nitwits who do not understand why this sort of thing is not okay, but I simply do not get why that's something we ought to accept.

 sebster wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Look man, I'm not saying that these mouthbreathing misfits deserve some sort of veneration, I'm saying that expecting these weirdos to hold the same social standards as regular people is nonsensical. They legitimately might not get why this isn't okay. And even if they might under normal circumstances - this is comic con, one of the few venues in which these jerks get to act like themselves. If this was a group of aboriginal amazonian tribespeople, their differences would be celebrated, but since they are just a bunch of nerds and dorks, they should just shut up and be like everyone else. Right?

No-one is telling them off for quoting Monty Python or making fun of the guy who forgot the THAC0 of a third level bard. 'Nerds will be nerds' is an argument with decent argument for it, but it stops a mile short of shoving your ass in a girl's face and telling her to spank it.

And, speaking as a nerd, I'm not particularly on board with the idea that puerile misogyny is something that I actually want as part of nerd culture. I agree with you that within nerd culture there is no shortage of socially stunted nitwits who do not understand why this sort of thing is not okay, but I simply do not get why that's something we ought to accept.

Yeah, that's a wonderful step forward for you personally, but you are not the grand chancellor of nerd dom. If you are offended by the actions of your erstwhile comrades, then distance yourself from them instead of trying to deny them their basic nerdiness. These guys didn't drop their drawers and grab her hand in some weird attempt at sexual gratification. One guy popped his ass out and asked a couple times for a hot chick, who had apparently opted in to the whole nerd culture, to spank it. Chances are he had no idea he was being weird or off putting.

 sebster wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Look man, I'm not saying that these mouthbreathing misfits deserve some sort of veneration, I'm saying that expecting these weirdos to hold the same social standards as regular people is nonsensical. They legitimately might not get why this isn't okay. And even if they might under normal circumstances - this is comic con, one of the few venues in which these jerks get to act like themselves. If this was a group of aboriginal amazonian tribespeople, their differences would be celebrated, but since they are just a bunch of nerds and dorks, they should just shut up and be like everyone else. Right?

No-one is telling them off for quoting Monty Python or making fun of the guy who forgot the THAC0 of a third level bard. 'Nerds will be nerds' is an argument with decent argument for it, but it stops a mile short of shoving your ass in a girl's face and telling her to spank it.

And, speaking as a nerd, I'm not particularly on board with the idea that puerile misogyny is something that I actually want as part of nerd culture. I agree with you that within nerd culture there is no shortage of socially stunted nitwits who do not understand why this sort of thing is not okay, but I simply do not get why that's something we ought to accept.

Again, nobody is saying it is acceptable or that it should be.

We are simply saying one should not be surprised that this behavior exists. Its the darkside of Nerddom. one that should be aknowledged, with a swift kick to the assuredly unused babymaker.

These are sad individuals. Such behavior is to be expected from them. It is problem that can be fixed, with proper precautions.


All Nerds who manage to reproduce. Make sure your offspring are properly socialized so as not to become like the guys who did this.

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about these guys reproducing.

 Bromsy wrote:
Yeah, that's a wonderful step forward for you personally, but you are not the grand chancellor of nerd dom. If you are offended by the actions of your erstwhile comrades, then distance yourself from them instead of trying to deny them their basic nerdiness. These guys didn't drop their drawers and grab her hand in some weird attempt at sexual gratification. One guy popped his ass out and asked a couple times for a hot chick, who had apparently opted in to the whole nerd culture, to spank it. Chances are he had no idea he was being weird or off putting.

What? I'm not denying them their basic nerdness. Their basic nerdness is safe as long as they can debate whether the DC reboot was the best or worst to ever happen. But there is nothing saying that nerdness needs to include a heaping great big dose of socially awkward sexism.

It's the great nerd fallacy - we can never criticise our own. If you look Warhammer and Doctor Who you are one of us, and we will not question your socially disfunctional weirdo ways.

feth that. There is no reason you cannot be a fan of Star Wars and functioning adult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Again, nobody is saying it is acceptable or that it should be.

We are simply saying one should not be surprised that this behavior exists. Its the darkside of Nerddom. one that should be aknowledged, with a swift kick to the assuredly unused babymaker.

These are sad individuals. Such behavior is to be expected from them. It is problem that can be fixed, with proper precautions.

Bromsy is saying that it is acceptable within the nerd bubble. It isn't, and it shouldn't be.

 sebster wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Yeah, that's a wonderful step forward for you personally, but you are not the grand chancellor of nerd dom. If you are offended by the actions of your erstwhile comrades, then distance yourself from them instead of trying to deny them their basic nerdiness. These guys didn't drop their drawers and grab her hand in some weird attempt at sexual gratification. One guy popped his ass out and asked a couple times for a hot chick, who had apparently opted in to the whole nerd culture, to spank it. Chances are he had no idea he was being weird or off putting.

What? I'm not denying them their basic nerdness. Their basic nerdness is safe as long as they can debate whether the DC reboot was the best or worst to ever happen. But there is nothing saying that nerdness needs to include a heaping great big dose of socially awkward sexism.

It's the great nerd fallacy - we can never criticise our own. If you look Warhammer and Doctor Who you are one of us, and we will not question your socially disfunctional weirdo ways.

feth that. There is no reason you cannot be a fan of Star Wars and functioning adult.

No one is saying you can't criticize them, I encourage criticism. I believe I referred to the folks involved as creepy weirdos. I'm just saying that going all or nothing is a bad, and focusing on the route of ostracizing the ones that are a little awkward is selling out the roots of the nerd movement. These people have a place too, a place they have earned more than the attractive late comers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:


Bromsy is saying that it is acceptable within the nerd bubble. It isn't, and it shouldn't be.

Once again, not saying it's a cool thing to do. Just saying that getting all out of shape based on a couple of nerds is ignoring the fact that those nerds might not realize they did anything wrong.

 Bromsy wrote:
it is unreasonable to expect everyone to meet the same social standards

I think the behaviour that sparked this thread falls way, way beyond the normal boundaries of social standards.

I'd like to state my support for Ms. Caruso's Red Sonya costume. Enthusiastic support.

Meanwhile the new episode of the Jimquisition on booth babes is relevant to this conversation:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6436-Booth-Babes

Kaldor wrote:Yes, if you're going to dress out-of-the-ordinary, you have to expect extra attention. Sometimes it's not going to be good attention. But that doesn't give the public carte blanche to be rude, invasive or degrading.

We, as a community, need to get that straight. So that when we are at a convention, we don't act like this guy. So when we see a guy acting like this we can step up and say "Hey dude, that's not cool."

This. A thousand times this, printed on T-shirts and air-dropped from dirigibles.

Bromsy wrote:Yeah, that's a wonderful step forward for you personally, but you are not the grand chancellor of nerd dom. If you are offended by the actions of your erstwhile comrades, then distance yourself from them instead of trying to deny them their basic nerdiness. These guys didn't drop their drawers and grab her hand in some weird attempt at sexual gratification. One guy popped his ass out and asked a couple times for a hot chick, who had apparently opted in to the whole nerd culture, to spank it. Chances are he had no idea he was being weird or off putting.

Well how about me, then? I am the Patron Saint of Broken Fanboys, and I do not think that running from the problem is the answer.


Ironically, however, I do not think the camera crew in question were nerds. That story reeks of collar-popped frat bros, Maxim magazine and their ilk.

 Grey Templar wrote:

What I'm saying is, she had no right to go and complain to the media and make a big deal of it..

Why does she not have the right to do this then ?

 Bromsy wrote:
No one is saying you can't criticize them, I encourage criticism. I believe I referred to the folks involved as creepy weirdos. I'm just saying that going all or nothing is a bad, and focusing on the route of ostracizing the ones that are a little awkward is selling out the roots of the nerd movement. These people have a place too, a place they have earned more than the attractive late comers.

Nerd-dom isn't a Vetern's Day Parade, there's no earned membership. It's a bunch of people with shared interests, which hopefully means that we'll all enjoy each other's company.

I know what you mean about the late comers, declaring themselves nerds because they liked Star Wars when they watched it one time, but feth it, if they're good company I'd prefer them to some obnoxious prat who thinks it's funny to tell a girl to smack his ass.

 sebster wrote:
Once again, not saying it's a cool thing to do. Just saying that getting all out of shape based on a couple of nerds is ignoring the fact that those nerds might not realize they did anything wrong.

Ignorance isn't an excuse for being a jackass.

This thread has degraded my faith in my fellow man considerably. I'm dismayed to see how many people I considered honorable and righteous to engage in, and defend, slut-shaming.

 Manchu wrote:
Surely you must understand that just means it will be more likely to happen again?

And yet, it's going to happen again somewhere to somebody no matter what we say. Funny how that works. Almost as if the world doesn't revolve around our own sensibilities.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
it is unreasonable to expect everyone to meet the same social standards

I think the behaviour that sparked this thread falls way, way beyond the normal boundaries of social standards.

Really? Really? Way beyond the normal boundaries of social standards?

Remove her wig and mask, and change her costume slightly but she's still wearing a skin tight leather outfit. Insert her into your local bar, club, party whatever. Would ANYONE say forward and dumb questions wouldnt happen? OF course they would. But gak like this happens every weekend ad nauseaum at bars, and no one blinks an eye. You might say alcohol is to blame for poor behavior at bars, but every con ive been to has been a big party. Why is this news then?

Im not talking about nerd persecution. But as I understand it, the Daily Mail is almost a tabloid correct? So its safe to assume that most its readers are probably not the most discerning type correct? So if thats the case, then a quick glance over this article will lead many to think "well cons ARE full of the weirdos I always heard they were" Or is that wrong?

And people need to get off this bs that anyone is "slut-shaming" her. Were simply asking how this rude and crass, but overall insignificant behavior is making national news. Some of you think she's out there standing up for womens rights. Others think shes blowing something out of proportion to garner hits on her website and the Daily Mail to sell copies. Only she knows the truth. Not you. Not I.

So please stop comparing anyone that isnt instantly supporting her to rapists and wife beaters.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
And people need to get off this bs that anyone is "slut-shaming" her.

She was compared to a whore by the fifth post in this thread.

I cant believe we have got 15 pages in and its still raging!

Listen, having to listen to gak pick up lines and a gak "slap my ass" doesn't mean you have been served a terrible injustice. Some fat chav put her hand on my knee and told me she wanted to sit on my face in a club, I told her to bugger off, end of discussion.

The more I read about this fething chick the more ridiculous she sounds, she is all over the bastard place! You dress up because you want people to look at you in the first place, and she seems to be a ridiculous narcissist with a me complex even more than most girls who dress skimpy and go to conventions.

Yes the bloke was a fat loser with the charm of a rottweiler, but this fething chick is pissing me off the more I read about her.

Boo hoo, someone was a bit rude. If some guy jammed his fist up her skirt she might have a genuine grievance, but as it stands its absolute nonsense, and the very fact that we are even discussing it is now annoying me, because she fething loves it.

In short, blame the piss-ant whiny victim for not just telling him to feth off and leaving it at that.