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 DeathReaper wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?

If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.

The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.

So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?

You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?

No, because the seekers do not say they are an exception.

Vector strike has a specific exception to that, as does the Skyfire rule. Seekers do not have a specific exception.

OK, what about the rest of my post?

FenixZero wrote:
Also, in the sense that FAQ <- Codex <- BRB; Snap Shots reduce BS to 1,after all of the math to modify your BS, a Snap Shot sets it to 1. The Seeker Missile on the other hand always 'hits' on 2+ (BS 5), the Tau FAQ shows this. No matter what your final BS is, it is set to 5 for the purpose of seeing if the Missile hits. That fits the FAQ <- Codex <- BRB rule in the BRB.

If it's set to 5 it's not a Snap Shot - by definition.

This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5

"normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).

(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5


Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).

(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?

(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation

 Minx wrote:

This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5

"normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).

(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5


Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).

(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?

(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation

A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.

40k-noob wrote:

 Minx wrote:

This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5

"normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).

(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5


Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).

(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?

(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation

A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.

By that definition, you would not be able to shoot a flyer at all. Which is an equally obtuse argument that could be made since the same faq disallows marker lights to be used to fire seeker missiles from overwatch, overwatch also being a snapshot.

I'm confused how shooting normally is equivalent to always shooting at bs5.

40k-noob wrote:
A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.

"Normally in all regards" obviously refers to treating the firing seeker in an identical manner (but resolved at BS5) to firing any generic weapon in the same specific circumstances (e.g. snap shot due to prior fast movement). It does not limit the applicable situations.

I was looking at the BRB FAQ just now and it says:

Q:"Can I choose to make a snap shot rather than a normal shot?"
A: No

This proves that a snap shot is not a normal shot. Now I look at the Tau codex for seekers and it says "fires normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5". So I fire it at BS5, normally.

Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Indeed, so you agree? I fire normally (meaning at BS5, like you say) in all regards (meaning in all circumstances that I am shooting eg, snap shot).

rigeld2 wrote:
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Obviously he dosent.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Obviously he dosent.

How does that FAQ not prove it?

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Obviously he dosent.

How does that FAQ not prove it?

Because it just doesn't. The FAQ doesn't say all flyers are purple either.

Because either a snapshot is not a normal shot, and you fire at BS1 anyway, or a snapshot is a normal shot, and since you are firing at BS5 you cannot hit it as per the flyer FAQ. You dont have specific permission to ignore the snapshot restriction imposed by the FAQ, and the seeker is a weapon/attack, thus you cannot hit with it at all.

Mega_Nob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Indeed, so you agree? I fire normally (meaning at BS5, like you say) in all regards (meaning in all circumstances that I am shooting eg, snap shot).

No. You fire at bs5 for normal shots.
A snap shot is not a normal shot.

You've proven both of those sentences.

 xole wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Minx wrote:

This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5

"normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).

(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5


Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).

(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?

(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation

A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.

By that definition, you would not be able to shoot a flyer at all. Which is an equally obtuse argument that could be made since the same faq disallows marker lights to be used to fire seeker missiles from overwatch, overwatch also being a snapshot.

I'm confused how shooting normally is equivalent to always shooting at bs5.

Not shooting Seekers during overwatch is because they are mounts on vehicles and vehicles are prevent from being able to fire Overwatch.

(EDIT: You could (in theory) use a Networked Markerlight (from the Marker Drone) during Overwatch, just not to increase your BS)

As to the rest of the discussion, to me it makes sense that Seekers would fire at BS5, its a static value just the Snap Shot rule is. This is the reason that Markerlights can't be used to modify BS of a Snap Shot because they occur at the END of the BS calculating math. To me the BS5 of a Seeker is the same. It happens at the end of the math.

The question then is, to me, which of the 'final' modifiers (Snap Shot or Seeker BS5) happens first. My money is that the Snap Shot rule happens first, then the BS is modified to 5 by the rules of the Seeker Missile. That still makes it a Snap Shot, just one that is resolved at BS5.

Also, how do Psyker powers play into your 'if its not BS, it's not a Snap Shot' viewpoint? I know that there is at least on power that let you make Overwatch (Snap Shots) at full BS, are those not Snap Shots anymore?

No, that ruling only applies to a zooming flyer. Overwatch and the like are different because they were not covered in the FAQ.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.

Obviously he dosent.

How does that FAQ not prove it?

Because it just doesn't. The FAQ doesn't say all flyers are purple either.

Yeah but the FAQ says "can I fire a snap shot *instead of* a normal shot?". How does that not prove that a snap shot is not a normal shot?

I eat a custard sandwich (not normal) instead of a ham sandwich (normal), they are both still a sandwich but each is completely different. Same thing, they are both shots, but one is normal and one is not.

What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?

Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?

 Minx wrote:
What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?

Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?

If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
No, that ruling only applies to a zooming flyer. Overwatch and the like are different because they were not covered in the FAQ.

No, the FAQ is all encompassing, it basically says that in any situation where your BS is reduced to 1(eg, firing snap shots at a flyer), then the seeker still fires at BS5. The vehicle being stunned or shaken is just there to give examples.

You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.

Can i wound/damage something with an abnormal shot?

Not if we are refering to a Tau seeker vs. a flyer.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Minx wrote:
What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?

Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?

If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.

Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

Crew Shaken:: The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn

I think this FAQ gives enough to say that the BS is 5 for resolving shots at the Flyers. Those shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots. On that FAQ they give Shaken/Stunned as an example which states when firing Snap shots, the missile is still BS 5. I see nothing so far to say that a Snap Shot at a Flyer would be any different than a Snap Shot after being stunned.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Minx wrote:
What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?

Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?

If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.

Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.

And because of that, the Flyer FAQ kicks in and the seeker cannot hit a flyer at all.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.

I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.

I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules.

True Enough

OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots"

Aaaand stop. That all you need to say because you have defeated your own argument. They are resolved as snapshot. Aka, they are resolved at BS1.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.

I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?

in the part of (hard to hit)

And he will ignore hard to hit and say the FAQ covers everything and the FAQ means he can, he isnt going to change his mind nor a few of the other people that have argued the FAQ allows them to ignore hard to hit.