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Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

I mean the part I bolded.

Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!

Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1. -- Your BS is COUNTED as being 1

Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes. -- No, your BS is the same, but is counted as BS for the purposes of those shots only.

Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes. -- No, a Seeker Missile has no BS, it is assumed to be BS5 because of the Markerlight use.

And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above. -- You should read pg 81 under the HtH rule

Incorrect. See my bold remarks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.

Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.

You are wrong, Snapshot do not Reduce your BS. You should read pg 13 again.

Happyjew wrote:
I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.

Happyjew understands the concept. I am not reducing you to BS1. If you fire at a different unit you still use full BS. By shooting at me, you count as BS1 naturally.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!

Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1.

Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.

Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.

And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above.

By this argument, someone with an Unwiedly weapon has an initiative of 1.

And you failed to reference a section - the Hard to Hit section which is what forces the snapshot mentions "resolved". Please go through all of the involved rules instead of just ones that help your argument.

Ok I will revise the questions accordingly:

Q1: Can I shoot at a flyer? Yes but they are hard to hit.

Q2: What does this mean? It means I can only "resolve" shots at a flyer as snap shots.

Q3: What is a snap shot? A shooting attack that reduces your BS to 1 in certain situations.

Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes

Q5: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If my BS is being counted as 1 then it has been reduced from whatever number it was before!!

It is not reducing your BS. It is counting as if you were BS 1 naturally.This is about the best way I can explain it in terms of this FAQ.

Mega_Nob wrote:
Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes

False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C:SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.

You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Mega_Nob wrote:
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.

Mega_Nob wrote:
He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.

So because someone who has never played the game says so, the debate is over?

This is the lamest Appeal to Authority I've ever seen.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.

OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 undertow wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.

So because someone who has never played the game says so, the debate is over?

This is the lamest Appeal to Authority I've ever seen.

Not an appeal to authority but a reference to someone reading the rules and taking them literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

I mean the part I bolded.

Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!

Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1. -- Your BS is COUNTED as being 1

Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes. -- No, your BS is the same, but is counted as BS for the purposes of those shots only.

Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes. -- No, a Seeker Missile has no BS, it is assumed to be BS5 because of the Markerlight use.

And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above. -- You should read pg 81 under the HtH rule

Incorrect. See my bold remarks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.

Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.

You are wrong, Snapshot do not Reduce your BS. You should read pg 13 again.

If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.

Mega_Nob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.

OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5

So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.

OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5

So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.

For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

FenixZero wrote:
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

No, it doesn't.

BRB Page 43 wrote:A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1,

Just like a model firing at a Flyer resolves as a Snap Shot, but is not making a Snap Shot.

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.

Mega_Nob wrote:


If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.

It can't and it doesn't.
SNAPSHOTS:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots"

Snapshots do not modify your BS at all, but if you are forced to SNAPSHOT, as in the case of firing at a Zooming Flyer, then the BS is COUNTED as being 1.

You and others here keep pointing to the TAU FAQ and that is fine, your Seeker Missiles is not affected by Stunned and Shaken results. I will grant you that.

Guess what though, you are STILL affected by the HtH rule if you target a Zooming Flyer.

Shaken/Stunned = no effect on Seeker Missiles that does not absolve your seeker missiles of the HtH rule.

If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

Flyer FAQ. Snapshot or no hit.

40k-noob wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:


If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.

It can't and it doesn't.
SNAPSHOTS:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots"

Snapshots do not modify your BS at all, but if you are forced to SNAPSHOT, as in the case of firing at a Zooming Flyer, then the BS is COUNTED as being 1.

You and others here keep pointing to the TAU FAQ and that is fine, your Seeker Missiles is not affected by Stunned and Shaken results. I will grant you that.

Guess what though, you are STILL affected by the HtH rule if you target a Zooming Flyer.

Shaken/Stunned = no effect on Seeker Missiles that does not absolve your seeker missiles of the HtH rule.

Shaken or stunned (which only allow you to fire snap shots, much like you have to at a flyer) are just there as examples, which incidentally, the FAQ references as circumstances where your BS is reduced to 1, thus proving that snap shots do indeed reduce your BS to 1.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.

Happyjew understands the concept. I am not reducing you to BS1. If you fire at a different unit you still use full BS. By shooting at me, you count as BS1 naturally.

All of these arguments have been heard and rebuked. This is starting to give me a headache.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes

False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C:SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.

The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.

It does not reduce BS. It treats the shot as if it wsa fired from a BS1 model. It is resolved as if the model was BS1 to begin with.

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am going to put this nicely, one more time.

You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!

And then the FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer."

How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes

False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C:SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.

The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.

Yes, firing a Snap Shot does so.
Resolving as a Snap Shot does not.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It does not reduce BS. It treats the shot as if it wsa fired from a BS1 model. It is resolved as if the model was BS1 to begin with.

If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.


Show me where in that FAQ, its says that says it is resolved as if the model had BS 1. I can show you where it says the vehicles BS is reduced. In fact, I even bolded it for you.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.

Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.

OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5

So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.

That's because it refers to Initiative Steps, not the actual Initiative characteristic.

A couple points
1) Here is the definition of Snap Shot. There is no such thing as "resolving Snap Shots", but not "firing Snap Shots" if you disagree, then either kindly provide the appropriate rule quote and page or admit your error.

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

You will note that the rule is possessive and refers directly to modifying the model's ballistic skill characteristic. Since the new value is less than the original it has *reduced* that value.

2) Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.

p31 Codex:Tau Empire
Seeker Missiles
Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users. The missiles may always be fired, each at different targets if relevant, regardless of the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any other weapons. They may also be fired if the has suffered a Crew Stunned vehicle damage result.

"May always be fired" is all encompassing and very much covers the circumstances of Snap Shot and it is not a blast weapon so the BRB does not provide an exception.
Seeker Missiles may be fired as Snap Shots

Even if you don't understand that here\ is further proof in an example. A Skyray without any wargear moves 12". Per BRB, all of its weapons must fire via Snap Shot. The Network Markerlight scores a hit on an opposing vehicle. The player expends that token to fire the vehicles seeker missile.

To be perfectly clear: The *vehicle* is firing the missile

p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.

Now, since the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile it must be launched as a Snap Shot and the vehicles BS has been reduced to 1. However, per the C;TE the seeker missile is fired at an assumed BS5. So which takes precedence? The Codex which modifies the BS1 to BS5 or the BRB which reverts it back to BS1?
To Clarify any confusion GW released an FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570052a_Tau_Empire_v1.1.pdf

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

The rule, sans example which can be removed since it's an example and not the rule itself, is as follows:

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

3) A Seeker Missile is no different from a Hunter Killer Missile, a Blood Strike Missile, or a Hellstrike Missile. It is a weapon on the vehicle and can be removed via weapon destroyed result.
It. Is. A. Weapon. On. The. Vehicle
As such, in order to fire, it must be fired *by the vehicle*. All this talk about Seeker Missiles not having a ballistic skill is ridiculous. Of course they don't, but that doesn't matter because weapons don't fire themselves. The vehicles do.

4) If you, as a player, say to your Tau opponent that they can't fire a Seeker Missile at a flyer, a weapon that has incredibly terrible odds at bringing down a flyer(2.3%) because it effectively requires 2x To Hit rolls, you must be ridiculously insecure. Two percent. If someone is lucky enough to beat those odds in a game, tournament or otherwise, (yes this is still a game, you know, meaning fun?) then I'm going to give it to them.

5) To Tau players. Don't shoot seeker missiles at flyers. It's dumb and your odds of success are infinitesimal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:
Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes

False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C:SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.

The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.

Yes, firing a Snap Shot does so.
Resolving as a Snap Shot does not.

Wrong. There is no such thing.
Provide a rules quote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am going to put this nicely, one more time.

You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!

And then the FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer."

How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).

Wrong.
Per this interpretation Skyfire does nothing.

A Model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

Your incorrect interpretation means that even though you're shooting at your normal BS, only 6's actually hit the Flyer.
Quite clearly you are wrong.

Provide a rules quote to support your point.

paidinfull wrote:
It absolutely changes the bearers initiative *for the purposes of striking blows in combat* else the rule would have no effect and powerfists would strike at normal initiative. That's 100% how it works and not the way you're suggesting. If you continue to have any confusion about the definitions and meanings of "change" or "reduce" or "modify", I suggest you look up those words in a dictionary. In order for the rule to work it has to "modify" the initiative. If it does not, then it has no effect. If the modification is to a value below the original value then it has "reduced" that value.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to reference the rule. I'll make it easy for you.

UNWIELDY
This weapon is very large, and more than
a little clumsy, making swift blows all but
impossible to achieve.
A model attacking with this weapon
does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a
Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

It doesn't change your initiative. It makes you attack at Init 1.

A couple points
1) Here is the definition of Snap Shot. There is no such thing as "resolving Snap Shots", but not "firing Snap Shots" if you disagree, then either kindly provide the appropriate rule quote and page or admit your error.

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

You will note that the rule is possessive and refers directly to modifying the model's ballistic skill characteristic. Since the new value is less than the original it has *reduced* that value.

Please reference the tenets of this subforum - dictionary definitions aren't always the best argument, especially not the Oxford one.

That rule says "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots". Hard to Hit says that you must resolve as a Snap Shot - it's not forcing you to make a Snap Shot. So either the rule does nothing (which is ridiculous and must be thrown out) or we understand that resolving as an action is not the same as taking that action.

However, per the C;TE the seeker missile is fired at an assumed BS5.

Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.

4) If you, as a player, say to your Tau opponent that they can't fire a Seeker Missile at a flyer, a weapon that has incredibly terrible odds at bringing down a flyer(2.3%) because it effectively requires 2x To Hit rolls, you must be ridiculously insecure. Two percent. If someone is lucky enough to beat those odds in a game, tournament or otherwise, (yes this is still a game, you know, meaning fun?) then I'm going to give it to them.

5) To Tau players. Don't shoot seeker missiles at flyers. It's dumb and your odds of success are infinitesimal.

Completely irrelevant to the argument.

Wrong. There is no such thing.
Provide a rules quote.

Provide a rules quote to define the difference between the words "a" and "Any".

I can't follow this logic at all.

How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.

There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.

Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

No, it doesn't.

If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.

I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.

I'm going to break it down again because all of my arguments have been heard and rebuked, and I too am getting a headache.

Q1: Can I shoot at a zooming flyer? A:Yes, but you have to use the HTH rule (p81).

Q2: Ok, what is that rule? A:It says you can only resolve shots at a zooming flyer as snap shots.

Q3: Right, so how do I do that? You have to use the snap shot rule (p13).

Q4: What is that rule? This says that for the purposes of those shots your BS is counted as being 1.

Q5: But my BS is 5, I have to reduce it to 1? Yes, for snap shots you do.

Q6: But I'm firing with a Seeker missile, do I still have to do that? Ah, no you don't.

Q7: Why not? Because, the Tau FAQ says that if the vehicle firing the Seeker is reduced to BS1 the seeker still fires at BS5.

Q8: Woah, hang on a minute! I'm doubtful of that. The rules say I am counted as being BS1 for those shots doesn't it? Yes

Q9: So how come I can still use BS5? Because, the incidences referenced in the FAQ (Shaken or stunned) say that in those circumstances, only snap shots can be fired by the vehicle.

Q10: So how does that help me keep my BS5? Because, by citing shaken and stunned as examples of your BS being reduced to 1 via using snap shots, the FAQ is saying that firing a snap shot is a sitution where your BS would be reduced to 1.

Q11: Ah, so it is, so this backs up the codex where it says I fire my seeker at BS5 in all regards right? Yes, correct.

Q12: Why? Because the Seeker can only fire if a markerlight has hit a unit, in this case the unit is a zooming flyer and the seeker will always fire at an assumed BS of 5 at that unit.

Q13: Wow, that took a while, can I kill your flyer now? You can try.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I can't follow this logic at all.

How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.

There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.

Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.

You forgot an important part.

How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.

rigeld2 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
It absolutely changes the bearers initiative *for the purposes of striking blows in combat* else the rule would have no effect and powerfists would strike at normal initiative. That's 100% how it works and not the way you're suggesting. If you continue to have any confusion about the definitions and meanings of "change" or "reduce" or "modify", I suggest you look up those words in a dictionary. In order for the rule to work it has to "modify" the initiative. If it does not, then it has no effect. If the modification is to a value below the original value then it has "reduced" that value.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to reference the rule. I'll make it easy for you.

UNWIELDY
This weapon is very large, and more than
a little clumsy, making swift blows all but
impossible to achieve.
A model attacking with this weapon
does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a
Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

It doesn't change your initiative. It makes you attack at Init 1.

My initial response was under the pretenses of 5th, and it actually makes you attack during Initiative Step 1, not Initiative 1, and my post has been updated to reflect it as such.

rigeld2 wrote:

That rule says "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots". Hard to Hit says that you must resolve as a Snap Shot - it's not forcing you to make a Snap Shot. So either the rule does nothing (which is ridiculous and must be thrown out) or we understand that resolving as an action is not the same as taking that action.

This is a strawman argument. There is no such thing as "resolving" in the BRB without the context of it *firing* or *shooting*. None of those processes function as you suggest. Furthermore, in order to come up with a resolution or to "resolve" something you are required to take action and in this case follow a process. The process for this "resolution" is referenced p13 and tells us the steps to take in order to "resolve" it. In this case it is an explicit rule that tells us the model's ballistic skill is reduced to 1. None of which support your assertions specifically in this case where it clearly reduces the model's ballistic skill only to have the FAQ return it to BS5.
[

rigeld2 wrote:

Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.

What you miss here, is that the circumstances are already "not normal". The expenditure of a Markerlight token has changed that so your point is incorrect. "It may always fire". The End. I've expended the token to meet the initial criteria after that I follow the process as outlined in the codex. You keep missing that key fact.

rigeld2 wrote:

Completely irrelevant to the argument.

Actually it's not, since I've provided RAW and am outlining how petty your attempt at semantics is.

rigeld2 wrote:
Provide a rules quote to define the difference between the words "a" and "Any".

So you can't provide a quote? Is that why you wrote this? Provide a rules quote that clearly outlines there is a difference between resolving a shot and shooting a shot. How do you come to a resolution of a Snap Shot, if you follow a process that is not the Snap Shot rule?

Also, stop avoiding the question and provide answer that outlines a rules quote from the BRB regarding the difference between "resolving by not taking action" and "taking an action"


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40k-noob wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I can't follow this logic at all.

How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.

There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.

Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.

You forgot an important part.

How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.

I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.

The FAQ outlines that you cannot fire a Seeker Missile on Overwatch, however. This is obvious because the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile not the unit. Who gets Overwatch? The unit. Not the vehicle, hence why Seeker Missiles cannot be fired on Overwatch.

FenixZero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.

No, it doesn't.

If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.

False. A model with a Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword must choose which to attack with, per the rules - they cannot attack with both. Your initiative is not modified. Time's Arrow would be a much, MUCH better item if it was modified.

rigeld2 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.

The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.

I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.

Time's Arrow is a C'Tan power that forces an initiative test on a model in B2B. Your assertion that the initiative is modified would mean that the test fails on anything but a 1.

paidinfull wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer."

How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).

Wrong.
Per this interpretation Skyfire does nothing.

A Model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.

Your incorrect interpretation means that even though you're shooting at your normal BS, only 6's actually hit the Flyer.
Quite clearly you are wrong.

Provide a rules quote to support your point.

Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.

It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.

Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.