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 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Minx wrote:
What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?

Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?

If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.

Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.

And because of that, the Flyer FAQ kicks in and the seeker cannot hit a flyer at all.

How does this sound?

Oh no, I want to shoot at a flyer, but dang, the rules say I can't without it being a snap shot, oh wait a minute, it's a seeker I'm firing, but that can fire normally in all regards at BS5. Yey, I can fire it. "in all regards" is a blanket statement, it covers every circumstance of firing, even at a flyer that has been marker lit.

There is no real conflict here. All shots at a Flyer must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Seeker missiles fire at BS5 on Snap shots.

Fragile wrote:
There is no real conflict here. All shots at a Flyer must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Seeker missiles fire at BS5 on Snap shots.

Yep, and are resolved at BS1

Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot (which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.

Hey guys, doesn't the BRB also say to roll a d6 when you have conflicting special rules?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.

I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?

in the part of (hard to hit)

Yes, I just quoted it so I am not ignoring it. The bit where I said "all shots at flyers are resolved as snap shots", that is from p81 in the BRB, top left of the page. And since the hard to hit part sends you to the snap shot part, where does it say "resolved" at BS1 on p13 of the BRB where the snap shot rule is?

Mega_Nob wrote:
"all shots at flyers are resolved as snap shots", that is from p81 in the BRB, top left of the page.

Right there.

I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot (which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.

That's not what the faq says; it's not talking about _firing_ as a snap shot.
And a different BS doesn't change the nature of the shot (snap shot or something else; otherwise a vehicle that is restricted to only fire snap shots cannot fire a seeker missile, that is fired and resolved as a normal shot following your argument. The tau faq says something else though).

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There is no real conflict here. All shots at a Flyer must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Seeker missiles fire at BS5 on Snap shots.

Yep, and are resolved at BS1

Hard to Hit.

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Nothing about "resolving" at BS 1. It says to resolve as a "Snap Shot", which the Tau FAQ says your fire at BS5. Your trying to combine two rules here into one. HTH and Snap Shots. There is no "resolved" in the Snap Shot rule. It states..

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots

Its BS "being counted as 1" definitely fits into "If a vehicle is reduced to BS1". Therefore, the missile will fire at BS5

Happyjew wrote:
I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.

This is exactly right. Im glad that someone gets it.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot (which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.

So, if I went to a restaraunt that has a rule where you can only eat with a fork, then I eat with a fork, but then I get a pass that says "In all regards this man can eat with a spoon" that means I can eat anything with a spoon, does this mean that I can only eat desserts with a spoon? No, because it over-rides the fork rule. Does it mean I can eat anything with a spoon? Yes. I am not limited to only using a spoon for certain things.

So, the rule says, flyers can only be hit with snap shots, but then the codex says I can fire a seeker at anything that has been hit with a markerlight at BS5. Does this mean I can only fire at ground units with a seeker at BS5? No. Does it mean I can fire at anything with a seeker at BS5? Yes, because it over-rides the Hard to Hit/ Snap Shot rule, as long as the target has been marker lit. I am not limited to firing at certain things. As long as it has been marker lit, I fire at it and roll to hit with BS5.

I know that is a clumsy example but I'm hoping you understand my point! :-)

I'm going to try his argument and see if it works on him.

No you cant.
Now its your turn to say "yes I can"
And then I will reply with "No you cant"
Because rules really dont seem to effect you as long as you keep saying "Yes I can"

A wise and famous man once said "Yes we can".

He did not play 40K.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I'm going to try his argument and see if it works on him.

No you cant.
Now its your turn to say "yes I can"
And then I will reply with "No you cant"
Because rules really dont seem to effect you as long as you keep saying "Yes I can"

Nor you as long as you can say "No you can't" :-P

Well, it is nearly Pantomime season!! Haha.

Maybe we all just have to agree to disagree and use our own interpretations of the rules for our own games (if our opponents agree of course!). I really don't want to join this site and have a load of people fall out with me straight away so I will call it a day where this is concerned until GW sort it out in an FAQ or something.

For The Greater Good :-)

 Minx wrote:
A wise and famous man once said "Yes we can".

Did he also say "but first we have to make a plan"?

Resolved as snap shots, and resolved normally in all respects at BS5. Both are resolved, so your "resolved" at point is moot because both rules tell us to "resolve" the shot. And as we have all read in the main rulebook, that codex rules take precedence as the main rulebook is not a comprehensive all encompassing set of rules, it is just the most common rules, and there are more in the army codecies. The main rulebook states something very similar on pg7 and pg32. The markerlight special rule is a special rule and not covered in the core rulebook. As even the special rules section tells you there are other special rules, these rules may still alter rules, and are said to take precedent over the main rulebooks rules.

I am going to put this nicely, one more time.

You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am going to put this nicely, one more time.

You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!

Normally, ignores exceptions, which is what the flier is. Normally uses the NORMAL rules. The flier uses an EXCEPTION to those rules. Snap shots are for certain situations, and alters to the NORMAL rules, so if you are firing snap shots you are not firing NORMALLY.

Mega_Nob wrote:
NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!

No - you resolve the shot normally at BS5.
You've proven that a Snap Shot is not a normal shot.
Therefore it's an abnormal situation which isn't covered in the "normally in all respects" rule.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.

Flyer FAQ. Snapshot or no hit.

Im just going to start quoting old arguments now.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

Maybe we all just have to agree to disagree and use our own interpretations of the rules for our own games (if our opponents agree of course!). I really don't want to join this site and have a load of people fall out with me straight away so I will call it a day where this is concerned until GW sort it out in an FAQ or something.

For The Greater Good :-)

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

I mean the part I bolded.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

It does not invalidate it. Just like your FAQ doesn't invalidate the HtH or Snapshot rule.

Your Seeker FAQ is addressing a general shooting situation while the other FAQ is addressing specifically shooting at Flyers.

If you fire at a land unit your BS5 is used to determine hits because there is nothing that define or changes how to resolve hits against land units.
However if you fire at a Zooming Flyer then the HtH rule kicks in and your are resolved as Snapshots, just like if you fired at it normally aside from the vehicle being stunned or shaken.

It is no different from any other unit firing at a Zooming Flyer, that has not been forced to snapshot.

Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.

Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.

I mean the part I bolded.

Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!! I even have a friend here asking about the debate as I type, after telling him some basic in and outs he asked me some questions after perusing the relevant rules:

Q1: So I can only hit a flyer using snap shots then? Yes.

Q2: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1 in certain circumstances.

Q3: So that means it is definitley a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.

Q4: In that FAQ there (Tau FAQ) does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.

He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.

And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the snap shot rules or the FAQ.

Mega_Nob wrote:

Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!

Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1.

Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.

Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.

And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above.

By this argument, someone with an Unwiedly weapon has an initiative of 1.

And you failed to reference a section - the Hard to Hit section which is what forces the snapshot mentions "resolved". Please go through all of the involved rules instead of just ones that help your argument.