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MarkyMark wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

This is where it gets a bit complex, The Tau codex says the seeker fires "normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5", and since the markerlight is merely the means to fire the Seeker, it does not in fact change the BS that the seeker is being fired at.

Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.

Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.

At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.

I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.

iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.

If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

The Marketlight isn't increasing the BS of Seekers because they are always fired at BS5. Firing a Seeker is an effect of using a Marketlight that has hit a target.

Mega_Nob wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

This is where it gets a bit complex, The Tau codex says the seeker fires "normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5", and since the markerlight is merely the means to fire the Seeker, it does not in fact change the BS that the seeker is being fired at.

You mean this is where your loop hole goes on shakey ground as you are assuming it ignores hard to hit, because you are not granted skyfire

This is all from me on this thread, wasted a good few mins before my dinner,

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FenixZero wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.

OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote

"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"

The Marketlight isn't increasing the BS of Seekers because they are always fired at BS5. Firing a Seeker is an effect of using a Marketlight that has hit a target.

My bad, never said it was altering the BS, just that the first line, BS1 of a snap shot, that clearly states a snap shot is bs1, nothing else.

MarkyMark wrote:
Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.

Sigh.

Did you not see where I broke down how the FAQ actually works?
Hard To Hit makes all shots against Flyers Snap Shots.
Snap Shots reduce all firing model's ballistic skill to 1.
We know that it is in fact reducing the ballistic skill when we look at the Tau FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

When we look at Shaken/Stunned on the Damage Chart we see that it makes the vehicle fire Snap Shots.
From that relationship we can easily deduce that the Snap Shot rule reduces the model's Ballistic Skill.
Seeker Missiles are then granted an exception to the rule in the FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

MarkyMark wrote:

At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.

I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.

iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.

No, no this is not "rules lawyering" to support the RAW. The RAW is quite clear and I've illustrated it clearly.

Saying that it does not fire @BS5 is wrong, because you're looking for, and providing semantic arguments to support your point that are in contradiction to the RAW & FAQ.

MarkyMark wrote:
Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.

At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.

I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.

iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.

If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.

Because it is a special rule. Why would you need to roll to hit with those witch fire powers, after you all you passed the LD test?

The main rulebook also states that other special rules may exist in a codex and those take precedence over rulebook rules. So as a special rule it allows for the targeting and hitting of a flier at it's assumed BS5. That is why no other weapon allows it, no other weapon has a special rule that is written as such. Skyfire and markerlight, both are written as such. Hard to hit is not normal, it is an exception.

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

MarkyMark wrote:
Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.

At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.

I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.

iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.

If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.

What are the HTH rules we are ignoring that you are referring to? You mean the ones that say you have to make a snap shot, which by reference is a shot that reduces your BS to 1, which then doesn't affect the BS of a seeker by refering to the Tau FAQ. Oh we have far from ignored that. See the last ten pages dude.

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

Why do you ignore other rules, and even the main rulebook telling you codex special rules take precedent over the main rulebook rules?

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

Right, and it is firing as a Snap Shot.

I outlined that quite clearly.
Shaken/Stunned = Snap Shot
Flyer = Snap Shot

Snap Shot = Reduce BS to 1.

FAQ overrides that. I know you don't want to admit it, but you are very, very wrong here.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me.

But we can ignore and change rules all we want.
I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me.

But we can ignore and change rules all we want.
I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.

What about a Primeval Titan? Pretty sure he's running one of those in his army list. That might allow him to Reserve his flyer.

I dunno. Lemme see you're character sheet. Better roll for dexterity first.

paidinfull wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me.

But we can ignore and change rules all we want.
I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.

What about a Primeval Titan? Pretty sure he's running one of those in his army list. That might allow him to Reserve his flyer.

When nature calls............


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

Did anyone say it was?

So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?

I would argue that the Snapfire requirement is met by the markerlight. At that point the special rules - expending a markerlight on a target - to target with a seeker missile comes into effect and that - per the rules says it hits on a 5+.

However, thanks to GW, there is no logic in the rules and it doesn't work. The markerlight not modifying a shot - referenced in the FAQ - is muddled by the fact that markerlights can modify the BS of a shot. Can a markerlight modify a snapfire. NO Can a markerlight be expended for a seeker missile. YES. So the only question is whether a seeker missile acts per the codex or not.

As stated before - other than the flexibility it offers - using seeker missiles to target flyers is a points-inefficient way to take out flyers. Which speaks to the age and dated costs of the Tau Empire codex.

DAaddict wrote:
I would argue that the Snapfire requirement is met by the markerlight. At that point the special rules - expending a markerlight on a target - to target with a seeker missile comes into effect and that - per the rules says it hits on a 5+.

However, thanks to GW, there is no logic in the rules and it doesn't work. The markerlight not modifying a shot - referenced in the FAQ - is muddled by the fact that markerlights can modify the BS of a shot. Can a markerlight modify a snapfire. NO Can a markerlight be expended for a seeker missile. YES. So the only question is whether a seeker missile acts per the codex or not.

As stated before - other than the flexibility it offers - using seeker missiles to target flyers is a points-inefficient way to take out flyers. Which speaks to the age and dated costs of the Tau Empire codex.

You're missing the key point though.
1.) Markerlight is used to fire the missile. Done.
2.) What BS is it resolved at?
3.) It's a flier, so snap fire.
4.) Is there a relevant FAQ? Yes.
5.) FAQ has you treat Seeker missiles as BS5 for the purpose of snap fire.

Done!

Happyjew wrote:
So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?

Quoting because it's apparently being ignored

I'm not familiar with Stubborn. But if there was an FAQ that specifically mentioned that a Stubborn unit's leadership doesn't get reduced to a set value, like what happened with the Seekermissile, then I'd agree.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'm not familiar with Stubborn. But if there was an FAQ that specifically mentioned that a Stubborn unit's leadership doesn't get reduced to a set value, like what happened with the Seekermissile, then I'd agree.

BRB page 43 wrote:When a unit that contains at least one
model with this special rule takes Morale
checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any
negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit
is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the
rules for Fearless instead.

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?

Quoting because it's apparently being ignored

A set modifier that is less than the original is very much a reduction.

Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

If you are referring to the PBS scenario, INAT has already covered that.

IG.47D.02 – Q: Does Weaken Resolve affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No it does not, as ‘Weaken Resolve’ modifies the unit’s Ld value (which ‘Stubborn’ ignores during Morale tests) [clarification].

If that was indeed what you are referring to, then yes, Stubborn ignores those modifiers.

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?

Quoting because it's apparently being ignored

A set modifier that is less than the original is very much a reduction.

Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

If you are referring to the PBS scenario, INAT has already covered that.

IG.47D.02 – Q: Does Weaken Resolve affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No it does not, as ‘Weaken Resolve’ modifies the unit’s Ld value (which ‘Stubborn’ ignores during Morale tests) [clarification].

If that was indeed what you are referring to, then yes, Stubborn ignores those modifiers.

Weaken Resolve isn't a set value. INAT isn't official.

INAT rulings don't amount to much here. Similar to NOVA out other Tournament FAQs.

In that case, I agree.

rigeld2 wrote:

Weaken Resolve isn't a set value. INAT isn't official.

What's your point?

Do you have a specific instance where an ability makes a unit's LD value a set value?

So are you trying to argue that the Seekermissile FAQ is irrelevent because of other rules that don't apply to shooting snap shots?

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

It absolutely is. Dont try to take the stance that a codex or FAQ cannot override the BRB. We all know that is not true.

When the vehicle fires the missile as a snapshot, it fires at BS5 per FAQ.

Is HTH a Snap Shot. Yes.

Then it fires at BS5

Happyjew wrote:
INAT rulings don't amount to much here. Similar to NOVA out other Tournament FAQs.

It was intended to save me time typing everything up, because it seemed that was your point.

Weaken Resolve
For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)

Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

There are the two rules. What do you think?
Does Weaken Resolve work on Stubborn units? No. You are attempting to "reduce", aka negatively modify, the Stubborn unit's Leadership.

This is off topic. Unless you have a specific instance that relates to the topic at hand, please stay on topic.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

It absolutely is. Dont try to take the stance that a codex or FAQ cannot override the BRB. We all know that is not true.

When the vehicle fires the missile as a snapshot, it fires at BS5 per FAQ.

Is HTH a Snap Shot. Yes.

Then it fires at BS5

Unless you missed it, snap shots at flyers are resolved at BS1, not 5.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures." is from an FAQ