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I noticed this quite a bit in my neck of the woods. Game stores have refused to carry products that where funded by kickstarter.
I heard it is because they do not sale. But also it is an insult to the game stores who receive it. Because the company that made it bypassed them to sell the product, then made the game store sell it hoping the store gets any stragglers?
Anyone else notice this trend? What do you think about kickstarter and such?

Well if the product doesn't sell, it doesn't sell.

There are many KS which basically everyone who wants the product probably got it via KS so the sales of the product may be bad.

Unlike products where the 'retail release' is going to be done at stores, the 'retail release' is basically the KS rewards and any post KS sales are pretty late to the game.

Store owners shouldn't stock a product that won't sell. And if companies want to have a retail store presence they need a model which promotes retail sales and helps stores who stock their product.

I doubt something like Sedition Wars won't be able to sell. I think it'd be more a case of CMON or whoever not having a distribution network set up with that store, etc.

I'm sure some stores may feel differently but in the end it's about the quality of the product. Good models/games will sell just like they would from any other source, while lackluster ones won't.

It would make sense, KS seems to work best when you have a niche product and need to get people from the far corners of the world (ie Trinidad) to kick in.

If a product would sell to the mass market, or even the available market in a given town, companies would be able to get normal funding.

Reaper's Bones is the only one I have seen so far that I can see normal gaming shops being interested in. Maybe the Leviathans... But a sci fi take on blood bowl? Mutant ears of corn? Will even the average gamer pick them up?

Dreadball seems to be sold by several retail shops though, at least judging from their online webstores.

I'm not really sure what the huge issue is though. It's like selling your product yourself via your own webstore or KS vs selling it via retailers.

I have one semi local store that sells Mantic, and one that tried it but can't even sell warhammer. But that's two stores that I know of that have Mantic's KoW on the shelf. I also found a couple other stores, like The Guard Tower in Columbus, Ohio, that sell Mantic. It does happen. Maybe just not as frequent. Those places all sell Reaper as well, but I haven't seen Sedition Wars yet.

Mantic is also sold at a store local to me. However, they've had items out before they started doing kickstarters... so they're certainly not a "kickstarter only" product / company.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I have one semi local store that sells Mantic, and one that tried it but can't even sell warhammer. But that's two stores that I know of that have Mantic's KoW on the shelf. I also found a couple other stores, like The Guard Tower in Columbus, Ohio, that sell Mantic. It does happen. Maybe just not as frequent. Those places all sell Reaper as well, but I haven't seen Sedition Wars yet.

Is Sedition wars even out yet?

I know at least one local store here is selling zombicide

I really doubt any sensible store owner is going to refuse to carry kickstarter games out of spite even if they would sell and make a nice profit. The more likely explanation is that the expected sales are too small to justify the shelf space, and the distribution network doesn't exist to get them out to a wide range of game stores.

A big part of the problem is probably with CMoN and not Kickstarter in general.

I have heard from several sources that they are not fun to do business with - both for retailers who are considering selling their items and manufacturers/creators who are selling products under their brand. Because of restrictive terms, many of the distributors barely carry their products - and as a result, a lot of retailers don't have an easy way of obtaining their products either.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
A big part of the problem is probably with CMoN and not Kickstarter in general.

I have heard from several sources that they are not fun to do business with - both for retailers who are considering selling their items and manufacturers/creators who are selling products under their brand. Because of restrictive terms, many of the distributors barely carry their products - and as a result, a lot of retailers don't have an easy way of obtaining their products either.

They aren't which is annoying as hell. I have gotten to the point I barely use them and go straight to the source. Even more they were all about carrying products I was producing and twice asked for samples so I sent them and called about it a few weeks later and was told they were busy and would get back to me. I called a month later and told the same thing. Then they stopped answering after I sent an email and all of this was between Febuary-May of 2012 and I haven't heard a word sense. Thankfully I am not out a bunch of money but unless they come to you don't expect squat. One of my friends who does sell to them told me they are slow to pay and usually it takes 3 or so reminders to pay what they owe.

Selling the game on Kickstarter counts as bypassing the store for sales, and is therefore an insult? I guess selling it online straight from the distributor does too by that same logic.

My local store stocks Mantic, so I can see Dreadball being stocked there. They also have a goodly selection of boardgames, so I can see Sedition Wars being stocked. The only one I can see them not stocking out of the big kickstarters is Bones, because we don't seem to have a big RPG crowd, and the RPG players I do see don't use miniatures.

While they do stock other Fantasy and sci fi lines, they're generally when they have an application in another game - they stock Gamezone and Raging Heroes stuff, because it has use in Warhammer.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Selling the game on Kickstarter counts as bypassing the store for sales, and is therefore an insult? I guess selling it online straight from the distributor does too by that same logic.

So what you're saying is we need some sort of "wall", maybe a policy, to keep these filthy internet distributors away from our stores. There's no way it could backfire.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Selling the game on Kickstarter counts as bypassing the store for sales, and is therefore an insult? I guess selling it online straight from the distributor does too by that same logic.

Generally yes. Store owners like you to buy in their store. The tables are there primarily for advertising, for that to pay off they need people to buy in store. If you got a crap ton of models from a kickstarter, and go and play in a store with them, they're seeing no money from you for the use of their tables. Similarly, if you budget buy a whole army from an online store and play on their tables, it's the same situation.

Agreeing with Kid on the whole 'Would the store have carried it anyway?'

In the case of our laocal store they are really annoyed with KS. KS allows they to cut out the store by providing a product to the buyers months in advance of general release and also a better value for the money that the retailer cannot offer or try to compete with.

(although in some ways this also reflects the greater problem of internet sellers on the whole)

Zombicide for instance I could get cheaper than what I'd pay in store, got exclusive promos and extra figures making it a much better deal. By the time you add in 5-10 other players at the same store getting their copies through KS it leaves a very deflated interest from other gamers to buy it instore (assuming it's even available) By the time the general release has come around everyone has been playing it in store for two months and it no longer has that "must have now!" factor that a new release uses to capture impulse buys.

They don't mind us bringing it to play, but at the same time they weren't very happy and they don't expect to stock nearly as many copies as they would of other simular products. The demand already peaked before they could get product in, and they can't offer the same deal so it's a bit of a no win situation.

I was very interested in KS initially as it is a very good tool for a small business, but it has a very negative impact on the retail structure of the LFGS when established businesses are using it as a pre-order system. (which isn't the original intent of KS, but money has corrupted it)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It would make sense, KS seems to work best when you have a niche product and need to get people from the far corners of the world (ie Trinidad) to kick in.

If a product would sell to the mass market, or even the available market in a given town, companies would be able to get normal funding.

Reaper's Bones is the only one I have seen so far that I can see normal gaming shops being interested in. Maybe the Leviathans... But a sci fi take on blood bowl? Mutant ears of corn? Will even the average gamer pick them up?

The big local hobby store carries CMON games and is planning to sell Sedition Wars and Dreadball. And any retailer with any sense will carry Reaper's Bones. I was a backer and I can't wait to buy multiples of the best models for conversions, or to show my nephew how to paint, and so on. Chatter at the store makes it sound like there is a lot of interest in the line, and the current Bones range keeps selling out, restocking, and selling out again. Plus, I imagine that any store that sells WGF minis will sell the Dreamforge minis, too.

The mutant ears of corn might do well with the 'zany' gamers who go for the wackier games.

 -Loki- wrote:
Generally yes. Store owners like you to buy in their store. The tables are there primarily for advertising, for that to pay off they need people to buy in store. If you got a crap ton of models from a kickstarter, and go and play in a store with them, they're seeing no money from you for the use of their tables. Similarly, if you budget buy a whole army from an online store and play on their tables, it's the same situation.

Well, somewhat. If you buy your 40k army off ebay and tell every new customer who walks by how awesome ebay discounts are you're not going to be very welcome. But if you're smart and shut up about it even your online store army is still good advertising, since new customers walk in, see how cool the game is, and want to buy it right away instead of screwing around trying to find an online store. If kickstarter games were actually big enough to get shelf space in a physical store then owners might be happier to see them.

I can't imagine this KS issue is as big a problem as stores would like to make it out to be. It's the same as buying from an internet store, except even riskier because there are NO guarantees at all for KS and the projects often take months to deliver which means usually the chargeback period for CCs is over. If KS had EXACTLY the same prices/deals as stores, then what would be the incentive to get them considering you're making a potentially risky investment.

And exactly what % of people actually just buy from KS? I mean it's a limited time thing that requires a)people to know about and b)people to have the money for it at the moment. It's not going to cannibalize all the sales for FLGS, or at least any more than internet stores would

Unless of course the KS has exclusive models not available to retail or internet retailers.

That's a point that will drive sales directly to KS that neither of the other business types can get acess to reagrdles sof any discounts they might offer. Almost everybody wants the exclusive or limited edition stuff, combine that with prices below what retailers or internet shops can offer and there's no way retailers can compete.

Except you can't buy anything after the KS which still means it's a limited time edition thing and you still need to be able to cough up the cash during that time frame. Sure, limited is nice if you can get at the timeframe it's available for but it's not like it's a continuous sale where you can keep ordering the same KS bundle directly from the manufacturers after the KS has closed.

Kind of like how I want into the zombicide KS stuff but I can't. Cause it's closed. And I didn't know about it. And I ended up buying mine via a FLGS

 paulson games wrote:
Unless of course the KS has exclusive models not available to retail or internet retailers.

Sure, but what's stopping those companies from offering exclusive models that are only available through their own online store? GW certainly does it but that doesn't ruin physical retail stores.

GW offers exclusive things to it direct retailers that it doesn't make avialable to independant stockist, and people complain about it too.

But because of their size it's a lump it or leave it situation. Most independant retailers still make enough money off the other products that they put up with it, but they are certainly aware that GW is diverting sales away from them.

Their exclusives aren't an all the time feature, if it were in place for every release I think you'd see a lot of people up in arms over it.

 paulson games wrote:
Most independant retailers still make enough money off the other products that they put up with it, but they are certainly aware that GW is diverting sales away from them.

So how does that make kickstarter such a bad thing? They're just doing what the dominant company in the industry does, and I don't see how it's really fair to complain about it like it's something exclusive to kickstarter.

Their exclusives aren't an all the time feature, if it were in place for every release I think you'd see a lot of people up in arms over it.

But kickstarter games aren't always exclusives either. You miss out on some models if you don't buy the pre-order, but that's no different than how you can only ever buy certain GW models through their own online store. In both cases you can still buy the core of the game later (or at least you could if anyone stocked the kickstarter game once it gets a full release) from the independent store.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Selling the game on Kickstarter counts as bypassing the store for sales, and is therefore an insult? I guess selling it online straight from the distributor does too by that same logic.

Exactly. Why isn't every game shop out there refusing to buy FFG products. I mean, they sell their own stuff direct.

It's early days for KS and the impact it might have on the Industry and Retailers.

I am still undecided.

A creator of a game wants their product to sell. To sell it has to be seen. To be seen you are asking retailers to risk money on them. The message given to retailers when a product is only available from a manufacturer or through a KS campaign, is a pretty clear message that the mfr would prefer to deal with the customer directly.
However the penetration of a KS campaign is far lower than having an item also in hundreds of stores globally. One however takes 30 days the other may take years to establish.

That isn't an exhaustive opinion but I can see why stores will not carry a KS product. Ranges compete for space and money in a store, a store owner should be spending it on product that turns quickly, if all your customers have already purchased it direct what would the point be?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Selling the game on Kickstarter counts as bypassing the store for sales, and is therefore an insult? I guess selling it online straight from the distributor does too by that same logic.

Exactly. Why isn't every game shop out there refusing to buy FFG products. I mean, they sell their own stuff direct.

It's less that they sell direct, but that they sell direct months before stores can even consider ordering it. Backing on Kickstarter usually means you'll have your hands on product weeks, sometimes months, before game stores get a turn, and with a plethora of exclusive extras. It's especially problematic when you have established brands like Steve Jackson relaunching games like Ogre via Kickstarter, especially after they'd already asked local stores to drum up support for pre-orders, 90% of which were cancelled once SJG announced they'd be Kickstarting it instead of going with a conventional release.

Don't get me wrong, I like Kickstarter and have backed a number of projects. Hell, my LGS has backed several, including Reaper Bones, Sedition Wars, and several indie games that wouldn't see the light of day otherwise. However, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about crowdfunding your product while maintaining goodwill with your retailers, and a lot of companies jump on the Kickstarter bandwagon without considering this.

Refusing to carry a product just because it was a KS is just stupid

(and sadly I do know of at least one local(ish) store with this policy)

but deciding to not stock a KS product because most/all of your customers have already got the product coming is sensible (and you can always order it in if anybody specifically asks for it)

A smart store owner with a good relationship with thier players can also 'upsell' KS stuff by getting backers to bring in painted up sets to play with for a 'retail launch' event (don't bring any KS exclusive stuff).....

Something like Sedition Wars would look very appealing on the table painted up, just the sort of thing to prompt an 'impluse buy'

The amount of product that is involved in a hobby KS launch seems to be stupid at the moment. Bones is an example of this, and has unfortunately set the standard.

Retail cannot compete with some of the KS only offers.

Customers perceptions are affected by KS campaigns.