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I think the bigger issue is that, as compared to KD, Wyrd just doesn't have anything to drive up more volume. I'm having trouble finding the value right now, and as such am keeping my pledge at $1 so I can still read all the backer-only stuff.

Wyrd could do a few things to entice me:
1. Show some mock ups of the either of the books.
2. Show a mock up of Hannah
3. Provide a teaser for Hannah's rules.
4. Provide a KS ONLY miniature (I don't know why they wouldn't do this; they love doing LEs)

If they don't do any of that, I'm going to continue to struggle to find the value here, especially now that I know I'll be able to get Hannah in other places. It's pretty clear that the KS isn't going to get to the free Hanging Tree level, which would have certainly added value to it.

When you actually look to the minichart on the Kicktraq page it gets depressing

Pretty much!

Like I said earlier, maybe they're at the "Job's done!" stage - and they only needed $(X) to get where they needed to go, and they just miscalculated how long it would take to get there?

Still seems like a strange way to run a KS though - from the outside looking in, from someone not all that interested in the product they're offering.

Coming from that segment of the market, I can say that nothing here has me too interested in jumping in either.

An option for a PDF only at a lot less than $60 would help drive these types of pledges, maybe.

 Alpharius wrote:
Pretty much!

Like I said earlier, maybe they're at the "Job's done!" stage - and they only needed $(X) to get where they needed to go, and they just miscalculated how long it would take to get there?

Problem with that strategy is that a lot of people just jumped in because they loved malifaux, pledged earlier to get Miss Terious and keep a wait and see approach. If it is worth it at the deadline keep the pledge. Otherwise drop it. Which means they might actually have people dropping out in masses if they don't do anything else.

We'lls ee how that works, I know that I'm one of those, I'm in for now just so I won't lose any early pledge rewards, but if it doesn't actually become an interesting Kickstarter at some point I'll back out of it. There is no incentive for me to shell out the money 3/4th of a year in advance as it stands now. I might buy it retail then if it is interesting enough (as there is still the risk that the product will not be up to their usual standards, as well, we don't know anything since we can't see what we're spending money on, another part one has to realize with kickstarters for these things).

 Bacms wrote:


Problem with that strategy is that a lot of people just jumped in because they loved malifaux, pledged earlier to get Miss Terious and keep a wait and see approach. If it is worth it at the deadline keep the pledge. Otherwise drop it. Which means they might actually have people dropping out in masses if they don't do anything else.

I doubt that this will happen on any noticeable scale.

For most people, money pledged is - psychologically - money already spend.

It is the same reason why adding little add ons, etc. works well for "normal" Kickstarters. Most see what they pledged already as "sunk costs" and getting "something more for a little bit more" as a good deal, even if they wouldn't have plunged for the deep end straight away.

And a lot of people simply want that game. Period.

Wyrd's lack of "promotion/stretch goals" is puzzling because they are wasting a great opportunity to "suck in" more people, not only into the RPG, but possibly into all their products. But there is little doubt that the existing Wyrd fans will get this and .. almost certainly .. enjoy it.

I don't think there are doubts that the product will be a fine one, even if the Kickstarter campaign is a strange one.

Actually, the situation may be more distressing then is even being credited. Consider the per day graphs;





What this doesn't show is that for most of yesterday, the numbers were actually negative. I've been watching the stats fairly carefully, and what is happening is that people are starting to churn: that is, people are leaving completely, causing the number to drop, so that even when new backers enter they are only filling the existing holes.

This morning, for example, it was at about -$150 or so at 1:30AM. It's going to spend most of the morning climbing out of that hole, so new backers will simply be absorbed until they have made up the losses.

This is exacerbated by the fact that this campaign has no meaningful way for people to increase their pledge amounts. KD has constantly added options as they have opened up: their average pledge has increased over the course of the campaign from (if I recall correctly) around $150 or so, to now it stands at $246 per backer. It will likely keep increasing over the course of the campaign as the Herald of Death becomes a better and better "sweet spot" (unless you are really looking to economize, it's probably already the best choice for a foreign backer). So when you look at yesterday and see 31 new backers and $16,000 added, what you're seeing is a lot of people increasing their pledges by small amounts as well as 16 new people adding $100, 200, 300, etc.

Wyrd, by contrast, stubbornly remains in the $150 zone, because there is noting that can be added. When pledges slump, they need more backers. If you watch it during the day you can see the movement in clear quanta of $60, $125 and so on.

It is very strange, but one can't help but think that there is something to the argument that "they have done enough" and don't feel that they need to do more.

The contrast in attitude, not among the backers, but from Wyrd, is striking: they really do seem almost as if they feel ashamed to be using kickstarter. Just look at their comments page (for Wyrd, not the campaign); they haven't responded to anyone since December 7th, 5 days ago. Adam Poots has more comment responses in the last 24-48 hours then Wyrd does on their entire campaign (slight hyperbole!).

At first I thought it was a characteristic of small companies like KD or JunkRobot, but more and more I think it's a reflection of how much they think the campaign will actually impact their business. JunkRobot, for example, babysat their campaign like... well, like it was their baby. It was a huge deal for their company. Same for KD.

Looking at what Wyrd is doing, one simply doesn't get the feeling that they consider this campaign essential to their product. No responses to comments, one (1) update per day? People have mentioned the weekly chats... but that only highlights that other campaigns haven't needed weekly chats... because the people running the campaign have popped into the comments 4-6 times per day to answer questions. I can't remember the last time I even saw someone official reply on their own forums... I'm not saying they have to take the pledge JunkRobot did to reply to every email within 24 hours, but they could have someone babysitting the campaign.

Thats a great post Buzzsaw, thanks.

Forgive me for going BIble, but Wyrd's attitude, and thus a lot of the criticism can be summed up by Colissians 3:23 and as paraphrased in 'plain english' by Martin Luther King Jr:

Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better.

Basically, if you're going to do it, do a good job. It feels like Wyrd has effectively thrown in the towel with 29 days left. When other Kickstarters and their creators stay actively engaged for the length of the project, it makes it appear that Wyrd just doesn't care enough about the KS or their backers to be more involved.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.

Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD

Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD

Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD

White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)

So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).

So Wyrd gives the option to pay full retail a year in advance for 2 crappy bound softcovers that will fall apart if you look at them sideways. Gee, how nice of them.

I'll take my double page count hardcover off amazon for cheaper, thanks.

Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.

 Polonius wrote:
Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.

Kind of the success of the kickstarter also means a successfully project. The more success the project gets the better it becomes and the larger the player community will be which leads to more interest from the rest of community and more attention to the company. So really they are about the same.

 Polonius wrote:
Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.

Perhaps.

But the question of how a company communicates with fans/backers/customers/etc.. is in itself a subject of importance and interest.

Games Workshop gets a lot of flak on Dakka for the way it approaches marketing and communications, product releases and product pricing (vis-a-vis the "value" you get for it).

Why should these subjects be off-topic for Wyrd-Games?

Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.

And while it isn't reflected in my quote I did speculate that it would be at least 150 pages but probably closer to 200 per book

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.

Perhaps.

But the question of how a company communicates with fans/backers/customers/etc.. is in itself a subject of importance and interest.

Games Workshop gets a lot of flak on Dakka for the way it approaches marketing and communications, product releases and product pricing (vis-a-vis the "value" you get for it).

Why should these subjects be off-topic for Wyrd-Games?

they aren't. I've posted multiple times in this thread criticizing Wyrd's approach in this KS.

It doesn't change the fact that if they started the campaign to fund the RPG books, with no other goals, they've met and exceeded the goal. I think the fact that they were fully funded based on virtually no info shows that they have plenty of goodwill. And they might look at stretch goals and the like and decide that there is no reason to sweeten the pot, or spread their creative efforts thinner. Of course, that supports the idea that the RPG was going to happen, and the KS is meant more to to infuse some general capital.

My point is that you can argue that Wyrd is being oddly arrogant, you can argue that they aren't doing much to bring in more fans, and you can argue that they simply don't appeal to you. What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a sucess. As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.

I can back that up, all of mine are still in good nick after years of use.

 Polonius wrote:

My point is that you can argue that Wyrd is being oddly arrogant, you can argue that they aren't doing much to bring in more fans, and you can argue that they simply don't appeal to you. What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a sucess. As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.

I think this really hits it on the head.

It also makes me wonder why they put such a long campaign timeline on there....

My Malifaux books are in really good shape. I've never questioned that the publishing would be quality when it came to the paperbacks. Just the quanity of pages, etc. I would also love to see/know more about the hardcover because they've never done one.

 Polonius wrote:

What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a success.

I am not.

But I can be puzzled by its success. Not all that dissimilar to GW's marketing/product release strategy, the secrets of success seem to be markedly different to what "the fans", "Dakka" or many other part-time-internet-miniature-business-analyst seems to think they are.

 Polonius wrote:

As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.

Just like Games Workshop - in many a person's opinion on this board - is allegedly wasting massive business opportunities by handling things (prizes, secrecy, neglect of "old customers", neglect of the tourney scene, etc..) the way they do.

Things that "baffle" the consumer will forever be a hot topic on internet forums.

I don't think they might have reasons for doing things the way they do. I think - just like GW - they must have reasons for doing things the way they do it.

I simply cannot, for the live of me, think of what these reasons might be (which is where it is different from GW, where I have the shareholder reports outlining their reasons for doing it how they do it).

ACtually, one possibly reason to not encourage further growth in the KS is to avoid the curse of success. I don't know how big Wyrd is, but I'm guessing not huge. There is a limit to how fast a company can grow, even given ample capital, and still retain the same culture.

I've seen reprots that other companies that have had runaway success with Kickstarter find themselves having more money than labor or time. And the cost of stretch goals and bonuses add up. Kickstarter is not meant or intended for any one type of project, but I think the projects that benefit the most are the ones that have little to no ability to secure financing any other way. The use here is a bit puzzling. If they really only needed $30k to publisht the game, it's worrying if they couldn't scrape that together over the next 12 months. And if they needed more, why not ask for more?

There are many possiblities, ranging from liquidity issues (they need $30k now, and are still going to make the RPG, but cash now would help) to simple half assedness. I'm more willing, barring any real evidence of problems, to assume they' just saw a chance to bring in some cash to help with a project, and didn't work very hard at it because it's simply not a priorty.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah- that's not going to work out in the end, imo. Talk about intentionally gimping your last minute push...

Yes, it is gimping their final push, because many people usually wait till the last minute and say, "Oh well NOW I can get this, that, and another thing, whereas 2 weeks ago I couldn't." They're making this about the project, not what the final push backers can line their pockets with, which is what kickstarter is about.

More money could give them design jump starts on future books/expansions. Its foolish to turn it down, particularly when that's the entire point of getting money beyond your initial funding goal.

Assume they need 30 grand for 2 books and 2 multi-pose minis They're currently sitting at a point where they could almost fun the printings of 10 more books and 10 more minis. Eventually they're going to get diminishing returns on extra content, their RPG team can only develop so much at a time before they start stretching themselves thin, not to mention that they probably have to wait for the tabletop game to advance, since what happens in the TT game affects the RPG...

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.

Wyrd fans are pretty hardcore defensive, mind. As much as I love the game of Malifaux, their forum is somewhere I massively avoid 'cos of this.

This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.

Not to sound like I'm shouting down your criticism, but their plastics are in scale with the rest of the stuff. SOME of the stuff is spindlier, but it's not bad. Don't forget that some of their metal models are also out of scale because the model is large (Joss comes to mind)... Just using these two pics:




They're pretty much in scale with metal models, I will give them that there are less places to glue them to the base. My standing beckoner had to be reglued because she's practically standing on toe, and you have a very small surface to glue her to a base...


Edit: It should also be pointed out that discussion of the models should take place here Since that actually pertains to the models, as this thread is dedicated to the kickstarter, and nothing else.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.

And while it isn't reflected in my quote I did speculate that it would be at least 150 pages but probably closer to 200 per book

Yes, the main Malifaux book. Like all softback's the glue's weak and it doesnt hold up well. My cover's scuffed, the edges are split, etc. IMO soft backs are disposable, and poor choices for reference manuals. Also, at the speculated 200 pages per book, they're still more expensive than comparable hardbacks with bigger page counts. Again, Wyrd's asking people to pre-order at retail prices and then having the attitude like they need to hold their nose to take our money. I'm in currently to follow it, but unless they offer hardcovers at less than the 125 range, I'm out. I know I'm not alone in wanting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Not to sound like I'm shouting down your criticism, but their plastics are in scale with the rest of the stuff. SOME of the stuff is spindlier, but it's not bad. Don't forget that some of their metal models are also out of scale because the model is large (Joss comes to mind)... Just using these two pics:




They're pretty much in scale with metal models, I will give them that there are less places to glue them to the base. My standing beckoner had to be reglued because she's practically standing on toe, and you have a very small surface to glue her to a base...


Edit: It should also be pointed out that discussion of the models should take place here Since that actually pertains to the models, as this thread is dedicated to the kickstarter, and nothing else.

The dark debts box is the only one I've seen worth a damn, but even then Lynch's head is about 2/3 the mass of others. The beckoner's limbs are thin and flat compared to other arms. Just because they're the same height doesnt mean they're the same scale.

And the I understant you dont own a hanging tree, but the corpse figures are also too small, and the ropes break pretty much instantly. Plus the bark/roots is just copy pasted texture which doesnt look very organic or realistic in comparison. Compare the computer modeled plastics to something like bad juju... were it done today he would just have a bunch of rounded blobs on him rather than all the intricate little odds and ends sticking out of his muck that add character to the figure.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.

You are very much in the minority here. I think the figures are amazing and a significant step up from the metals. Having put some of these figures together, I would like to know what you are doing to them to have them break so readily. Then again, I see kids with broken smartphone screens all the time. Dunno.

Edit: Stupid smartphone. Android's autocorrect is nearly as bad as Apple's. :/

 Polonius wrote:
There are many possiblities, ranging from liquidity issues (they need $30k now, and are still going to make the RPG, but cash now would help) to simple half assedness. I'm more willing, barring any real evidence of problems, to assume they' just saw a chance to bring in some cash to help with a project, and didn't work very hard at it because it's simply not a priorty.

This ties into something that I began to consider when you mentioned considering the campaign a "success", if only in the narrowest commercial sense. That is, the attitude you note above is being broadcast to a very large audience, an audience that probably didn't have much in the way of feeling one way or the other towards Wyrd prior to now.

Speaking only for myself now, I have been looking forward for some time to picking up a few of the miniatures from the upcoming Ten Thunders faction, and was genuinely looking forward to what would be offered in this campaign. My initial enthusiasm has turned first into confusion, and then to complete bafflement as to what they are trying to do here. Its difficult to come away from the campaign without he feeling that Wyrd is either engaging in (to be generous) treating their customers with benign neglect, or (to be less generous) contempt.

A lot of people like me that held generally positive views of Wyrd are likely wondering how accurate their previous impressions were. Of course that's all conjecture, and only time will tell.

What isn't so conjectural is the muddled nature of the campaign: thre seems to be a strong feeling going around along the lines of "they've made enough cash, they're fine", but this clashes with the fact that they did, after all, release stretch goals. Wildly desultory and disappointing, but stretch goals nevertheless.

Let's remember what I mentioned earlier in the thread: you never need to have stretch goals. In fact, for a project like a book, that is self-contained and not amenable to expansion, it's probably a good idea not to have them. I noted that the Art of Brom had some minimal stretch goals related to the binding of the book, and when they reached them... that was it.

Wyrd hasn't done that. Instead of saying "awesome, this is going to be a great product, tell your friends to get in on a great deal", they announced stretch goals, said "There are more Stretch Goals waiting to be reached, so read on to see what Fate may have in store!" Why? They've ended up sorta stringing people along, with a structure designed to hold onto people that may not have considered the deal worthwhile, for fear of losing the only really good addition thus far, the special edition Miss T.

I could see that this KS could produce more funds that their RPG division could use so stretches could be tricky

but they could always treat them as a long term loan,

Make the stretches PDF adventures, to be delivered over the next few years,

every 3 or 6 months a new product could be available to download meaning everybody would KNOW the RPG was here to stay, meaning it would be a far less risky thing to get into (and then sold as a paper product to the general public)

(there are so many RPGs that effectivy die after the system and only a couple of adventures...knowing it's got support for a couple of years in the future would mean it would be an easier sell to gamers)

It would also mean they'd be able to keep a (small) dedicated team employed to enlarge and deepen the world background etc

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


(there are so many RPGs that effectivy die after the system and only a couple of adventures...knowing it's got support for a couple of years in the future would mean it would be an easier sell to gamers)

Yes. But that is the reason so many these days do it on Kickstarter.

Pre-Kickstarter, the "profitable" part of RPGs was usually the "main books". Adventures and obscure supplements for corner X of the setting rarely were profitable. That's why the large companies like WoTC and Steve Jackson "rebooted" their line every so often. That is why WoTC tried to outsource the "not-so-profitable" adventures, etc.. through their Open Gaming License (which didn't work out as they thought it would, as most ambitious 3rd parties out there also started profitable "core games" of their own, rather than plot along doing adventures).

But with RPG's on Kickstarter - such as the niche-record Numenera - they front-load as many adventures (pdf ideally) as is humanly possible into the Kickstarter.

That is the time when people buy them - as a part of stretches, add-ons and Kickstarter bonuses. Not a fraction of them will ever buy the adventure when it is published, Kickstarter-independent, months or even years later.

Nobody will back a "follow-up" Kickstarter for adventures without core-game either (which is easier with miniatures I s'pose).

If Wyrd isn't using this Kickstarter to get as many adventure "pre-orders" in as possible, that only makes the long-term support for this RPG more questionable IMO, not less so.

When the core game is out and the Kickstarter funds used up, publishing adventures and obscure supplements will not support a decent-sized RPG department, much less one led by a no doubt not-quite-cheap half-celebrity designer like Mack Martin.

 Breotan wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.

You are very much in the minority here. I think the figures are amazing and a significant step up from the metals. Having put some of these figures together, I would like to know what you are doing to them to have them break so readily. Then again, I see kids with broken smartphone screens all the time. Dunno.

Edit: Stupid smartphone. Android's autocorrect is nearly as bad as Apple's. :/

I had the gall to take them off the sprue. Actually one of the god awful trees came with a broken rope in the box, one broke while snipping it off, and a third broke while applying a base coat. So of the 4 corpses, one managed to make it through the base coat/wash stage, but its only a matter of time before some mean nasty foam hurts the delicate little snowflake. Those chains on the 10 thunder models? As good as trashed. If the 3D artist had worked with real materials, they would have realized quickly how impractical they were.

Like I said, please take the model discussion talk to the thread that discusses the models. But we have a good update today!

December 12th - over 581% of funding goal

Hi everyone!

Day Fifteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!

I should say it’s time for another Hijacked Update! Yes indeed, Mack hinted yesterday that we’d soon have a realistic (although early) break down of how the Kickstarter funds translate into improvements and expansions for Through the Breach. We’ve prepared the breakdown, and Mack is serving it to you on a silver platter! Check out the graphic below!

Also, Mack hosted Breach Side Chat #2 this morning, and we’ve got that up on YouTube now for you – thanks everybody who was able to chime in today!

Until Monday!

Jacqulyn

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if we take a look at some of the questions people have been asking on the KS and Wyrd forums about character creation, the various other "books" seem to be covered up by the jokers, etc... so we'll most likely see those as the Kickstarter goes on.

We currently have 2 books for release after the KS
Into the Bayou - More expanded lore and fluff of the Bayou, and you can create a gremlin

From Nightmares - Get to play as Neverborn and learn more about the natives to Malifaux.