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Yup, just broke $197k, a slow climb sure beats that weird cycle.

Would the final countdown, or The Climb be the best song montage for this?

My vote is for




OOH OOH or...

Alf. I do have the 2nd Miss Demeanor and I found my cards!! Woot. You want her or what?

Didn't see the Saturday post up yet, if I missed it, please don't ban me!

Salutations!

I'm at home today, but we're all having a good time and I just didn't want that to stop. As I'm not in the office, I won't be able to update the graphics and such to reflect the bonus points until Monday, but I wouldn't want that to stop me.

Congratulations to all of you on yesterday's puzzle. You solved it, by my calculations, in under 3 hours. And here I thought the one hidden on page 3 of that thread was clever! As of now, it brings us to about 626 points (although it's Saturday, so I'm just doing the math in my head).

The next one will have to be more difficult!

I thought I would take this opportunity to chat about the Creature Catalogue that we are closing in on! I have discussed these milestones a bit before, but I thought now was a good time to talk about it a bit more.

These goals aren't going to be left out if we don't make the pages I need to put them in. They will just need to be scaled back so that they fit. The Creature Catalogue is a great example of how that works. Regardless of our funding level, there will be creatures and monsters in the Fatemaster's Almanac. The game wouldn't be complete without plenty of things to fight, or make dark bargains with. Currently (as we are at about 197k) the creature section is a bit encyclopedic. I have a lot of information to squeeze in.

Looking at my book plan, I currently have about 100 pages dedicated to Fatemaster Characters (or NPC's). Much of the page count is spent detailing the game world for the Fatemaster. The sections I dedicate to the Ten Thunder's, for instance, have information on the organization, as well as stats and descriptions of masters, henchmen, and minions.

But what if I had more pages? What could I do with that space? Well, the Creature Catalogue I have knocking around my brain is a collection of research notes, diatribes, and impressions from a small group of "big game" hunters. This copy is owned by the illustrious Ria Dante-Ortega, and she heavily annotates the book by writing in the margins, or adding additional information on slips of paper she tucks in between pages.

Many of you may recognize this technique. For me, whenever one of my favorite RPG's employs the "in character document" it just floors me. I know Nathan is a big fan of the Volo Guides. I first saw it in the Street Samurai's Catalog (they use the other spelling) and it's still one of my favorite RPG books of all time. Recently, the Dresden Files RPG was written entirely with the technique, and it makes it a pleasure to read for any fan of the series.

It's a page heavy style, however, so that's why I want more pages! I'm already planning to handle the equipment section in this fashion. The gear chapter is presented as a Sears & Robuck style catalogue that is kept at the Guild Store, and various people have made notes on the yellowing pages. This is the sort of thing that can help make an RPG a classic. I want Through the Breach to be a joy to read for years to come, even for gamers who aren't typically Roleplayers.

Well, I think it's time I go take down the lights... it being January and all. See you all Monday!

 Alfndrate wrote:

To get Santana, one only had to work three shifts over the course of 4 days, this could be something as being a part of the early crew on Thursday helping set up, this could be running 10 to 15 minute demos through the day, or you could be insane like me and work Saturday from 9 am to 10pm and get it all done in a day. And as it has been said, there was another way for Henchmen to earn Santana, and that was by running events in their local areas during the summer campaign. So, not only did this earn the henchmen, one or two Santanas (depending on how much they did), but it also netted them their normal henchman rewards for running events. Also to "cash in on it's desirability," Yes, because other kickstarters aren't doing that right now. Kingdom Death: Monster is giving away FAR MORE minis, I'll give them that, but plenty of those minis are only available in certain ways during the kickstarter. If I remember correctly, the "armor kits" that are being sold as options are coming in twenty figs for 50, and and 4 for 20? Yes, that's a great deal, but outside of the kickstarter you can only get these options via their individual expansions. How is it that this gets a free pass, but Santana, a model that people in Wyrd's community have been wanting for awhile, can't be given out?

I just pledged for some armor suits. I'm spending less than $100 with KDM and getting things I actually want. Does it bug me that so many extras are only for $300+ backers? Yes. I hate to see that kind of inflation over the good old days when a nice $100-$150 pledge got you the VIP treatment in any Kickstarter. It felt like they really cared about the average "investor" back then. But you know what? When I was in for $31, I still got some kind of reward, plus a pdf, which was not only a sign that I mattered a smidgen to KD, but better value than anything I've seen in TtB.

Long story short, I'm a Kickstarter socialist. It's called crowdfunding, after all.

Should Wyrd charge for it? Would that ease your thoughts on this?

Absolutely. A $15 to $30 pledge increase would be high, but reasonable, and give everyone who is into the KS because they play the minis game a chance to get it. Putting it in the $225 pledge was just a Dick move. (As in something Dick Nixon would do.)

As for overvaluing their band, Wyrd hasn't done that at all, thanks for the GW comparison, you could have just said it. You want heaping on of rewards? Then back the KS so it can start striving towards those goals. Everyone knows they can't offer more if there isn't the push behind them, I'm sorry you're not getting the entirety of Wyrd's line for 125 dollars, but dude you've got to be realistic in this.

I think I am the one being realistic. The KS did die for a month. It couldn't have just been me.

Now Wyrd is literally offering the merchandise of contention for $125 pledge, and things are slowly turning around. Hmmmm.

Actually we don't know that because none of us work for Wyrd in a paycheck sense besides two posters, and they don't have to tell us because honestly it's not important who they originally wanted to get Santanas. This entire thread for the most part has been people going back and forth about the value of the pledge levels, and Cincydooley even said it thirty some pages ago that Wyrd needs to target their skirmisher gamer in this. Why wouldn't they offer Santana to the highest tier originally? Because a single mini wanted by the community could be more than enough to push some people up to that spot? Sounds like a business plan.

A manipulative, transparently exploitative plan, yes. I wonder how well it went over.

Did it work? No, did they adjust it to help it work? Yes, the 225s are getting Santanas without needing the 500 backers at that level, and so now that she's been unlocked, there is more incentive to pledge the 225 level. And there is even more reason to pledge the 125 if/once she gets unlocked there. I'm sure some of the 60 dollar pledges will bump up to 125, because even if you go for the living room gamer, that's three books (roughly 120 dollar value), a fate deck (11.50), a multi-pose mini (11 to 21 dollars), Santana (I'll give her a 20 dollar value as though she were available in a store). That's easily worth the jump up, and one might argue that it's worth the jump up even more if you go for the Dining Room Gamer. And the "unwashed masses" paying a lot of money has nothing really to do with this. She has never been available for "purchase" from Wyrd before and as such you can't fairly argue that Wyrd doesn't want their average gamer to get their hands on her

I think the bolded part is some hilarious doublethink.

Also, everyone finds different value in the pledge offerings. How many people besides the die-hard first-48 hour pledgers found value in the pledges you describe? Maybe I'll need a visual aide from Kicktracker on this one.

Obviously I am not speaking for the established fanbase here, who would have much more use and need for some rare model than me, the guy who wanted to see if Malifaux was worth getting into. Since you are in the former camp, I am trying to give you some perspective on what it's like outside looking in.

, you're just being flamebait-y. As we've said before, she was NEVER available to people originally because she was a thank you gift. Jeebus, how many times does it need to be said. She's still a thank-you gift in some sense, but this time it's a purchasable one.

Someone else said that Wyrd released 5 limited edition models this year alone. It doesn't come across like a thank you so much as a country club whose prestige is based on exclusivity. In that simile, I'm like the anti-Groucho Marx.

Except it's nothing like a CCG, there's nothing collectible about wargaming (there are some pieces that are collectible, but not in the same sense as a CCG)! Companies release limited edition models all the time. Within arms reach, I have the Bombshell Bombardier & Druid Gone Wilder from PP, the AdeptiCon 2011 mini (that orc on the throne), The Black Kiwi from On the Lamb Games, Santana, and Nightmare Edition Teddy from Wyrd (Miss Terious would be on that list, but she's not on the shelf in front of my, or on my painting station lol ). Also like a collectible card game, none of these are going to be illegal in 18 months! huzzah for that. But seriously, with the exception of the Wyrd minis, you cannot get your hands on any of the other limited edition stuff outside of eBay, so how come PP or AdeptiCon get this almighty free pass on their limited edition figures? Is it because they're not bringing them out and letting others have a chance at them? If that's the case, I'd rather always invest in Wyrd than any other company simply for the fact that I have a better chance of them offering a limited edition model I might be interested in.

Do PP, et al release 5 limited edition models a year? If so, I hate them, too.

Just for the record, I actually do have a lot of distaste for PP, GW and many other companies. I used to love AoW, but their Indiegogo chilled my fiery heart. Wyrd is in good company.

And the CCG remark references the second hand gouge market, not game play.

198K and growing, yay!

Hey bob. That stuff that the herald of death level is getting? You can purchase all of that by itself. Herald of death just gets it for free. Jus sayin.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

To get Santana, one only had to work three shifts over the course of 4 days, this could be something as being a part of the early crew on Thursday helping set up, this could be running 10 to 15 minute demos through the day, or you could be insane like me and work Saturday from 9 am to 10pm and get it all done in a day. And as it has been said, there was another way for Henchmen to earn Santana, and that was by running events in their local areas during the summer campaign. So, not only did this earn the henchmen, one or two Santanas (depending on how much they did), but it also netted them their normal henchman rewards for running events. Also to "cash in on it's desirability," Yes, because other kickstarters aren't doing that right now. Kingdom Death: Monster is giving away FAR MORE minis, I'll give them that, but plenty of those minis are only available in certain ways during the kickstarter. If I remember correctly, the "armor kits" that are being sold as options are coming in twenty figs for 50, and and 4 for 20? Yes, that's a great deal, but outside of the kickstarter you can only get these options via their individual expansions. How is it that this gets a free pass, but Santana, a model that people in Wyrd's community have been wanting for awhile, can't be given out?

I just pledged for some armor suits. I'm spending less than $100 with KDM and getting things I actually want. Does it bug me that so many extras are only for $300+ backers? Yes. I hate to see that kind of inflation over the good old days when a nice $100-$150 pledge got you the VIP treatment in any Kickstarter. It felt like they really cared about the average "investor" back then. But you know what? When I was in for $31, I still got some kind of reward, plus a pdf, which was not only a sign that I mattered a smidgen to KD, but better value than anything I've seen in TtB.

Long story short, I'm a Kickstarter socialist. It's called crowdfunding, after all.

Then you should be happy when a company opens up some of its stretch goals to the rest of the crowd... Just saying.

I think I'm done here. You say you're being realistic, but I don't see it that way. Good luck with your KD:M stuff.

Cincydooley, I'll totally take a Miss Demeanor, can we wait till next week when I get paid?

Naw. Just PM me your address.

Sent, thanks man

Forar wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
First of all, I keep telling you I am (was) a prospective new customer. I do not think that means what you think that means. Inconceivable, I know.

I was referring to the forums. I thought that perhaps you might've perused the Wyrd forums at some point. For example; I'm here on what is apparently a primarily GW forum, and aside from a few weeks in the MMO when it launched, I've never touched another GW product. Unless you count Hero Quest, though I believe that's a bit of a stretch.

Apologies for assuming you might've dug into the company, firmly fence sitting maybe-but-not-really Customer (with a capital C and everything!) that you are.

Points for some Princess Bride though.

I'm fairly pressed for time online, generally, and tend to be fairly focused on what forums I visit. The only miniature wargaming forum I used to visit was Warseer, until the mod staff hulkraged over Kickstarters and essentially told everyone if they wanted to discuss the most exciting developments in wargaming they should go elsewhere. Now, I'm here mostly.

I don't frequent Mantic's forums, and I spent $500 on their products last year. I don't frequent McVey's forums or Dreamforge's, or anyone else's. I tried Reaper, but it wasn't working out too well. Besides, this is a viable community discussing Malifaux right here with Santana-paid spokespeople who can and theoretically will direct me to the information I seek without getting snarky.


There's a vast set of potential customers out there, and I think you'll find only a small, small subset of them are willing and able to put in some serious Santana's worth of time into perusing Wyrd's forums while still unsure they want to dive in. If only there were some sort of hench people to take on the responsibility of shepherding fresh blood into the Wyrd coffers, I think they would be quite useful for both casual customers and Wyrd alike.

Besides, I'm interested in Dreamforge, Gate of Antares, Mantic, Black Library, Iron Kingdoms novels, Sedition Wars, Kingdom Death, Malifaux, Infinity, Mercs, Reaper's Warlord, Super Dungeon Explore, DUST whatever, Dystopian Legions, etc., etc.. I am physically and emotionally incapable of supporting all of these companies/universes/ranges. The ones who come to me and make it easy for me to get hooked are the ones who get my dollars. That's generally how it works with potential customers. That's why Superbowl ads aren't just a bunch of urls telling customers where to go to read up on products they might like.

I've been playing for a year, and in that time they have released 5 Limited Edition models: 2 at Easter (I had no interest in either), Miss Terious, Santana and the Hanging Tree. 2 of which I might be getting through this KS, the third of which is a possibility (albeit a slim one). I'm not exactly blown away here. I come from a Magic: the Gathering background, where people pay more for a single piece of card stock than I would've for Miss T or Santana on Ebay. Sometimes dozens of times in a single deck. Wargaming is a seriously expensive hobby, but I'm no stranger to rare/hard to find items and promotional pieces. At least in this case I don't have to worry about those pieces actually doing something different in the game. Want to match my fearsome Miss T? I think Death Marshalls are $15 for 3. Give or take, they seem to release, like, 4'ish limited edition alternate sculpts per year. OH NOES!

We have different feelings on the matter. I'm not against limited or special models in principle, but I do find it distasteful when a company puts out so many of them and creates such a huge, unaddressed demand in the customer community. I find it disagreeable to see such a demand used to punish loyal customers, too. ("You're not pledging high enough. We were going to give you Santanas, but people stopped paying $redonkulous pledges to us, so now we're not going to unless you get your friends to pay it forward." Yes, they changed their mind when their cynicism caused a backlash, but that was clearly their attitude early on.) In the end, the Santana thing alone wouldn't have mattered much to me, but as a part of the bigger picture of this KS (as portrayed in the first 30 pages or so of this thread) it really makes me stand back and see things anew.

I also hate it when Star Wars models are sold in pallets where each pallet only has one Darth Vader, because everyone loves Darth Vader, so let's make him collectibly rare. They might as well just tell me they see me as the Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons, only with more OCD.

We can add Missed Thepointe to the contenders from a few pages back, though.

I appreciate that.

That sounds horrible. Why would I want to support a company that treated its fans like that? "You want it? Too bad! Haw haw haw!"

Oh, wait. They are now dangling this bait before the Kickstarter backers because they got desperate. What a nice, young company!

If Santana was what it took to breathe new life back into the campaign, and they listened (god knows I've been dropping thinly veiled hints about it for ages), good on them for listening to what people wanted and giving it to them.

If only they had listened before making it clear that in their eyes I was a greedy, cheapskate, swag-grubbing pre-orderer!

Does 'thank you' really count when it sounds so insincere and self-serving?

First they artificially inflate the value of the piece by making it impossible for people who cannot physically work (their butts off) at a con for them. Then they cash in on its desirability to sucker their fans into pledging ridiculous amounts of money for a half-assed RPG. Then they lower the cost of entry for all the mewling proles because they just couldn't find any other method for fleecing them more. This is one miniature we're talking about. Other Kickstarters pile on the "thank yous" because they (at least apparently) are genuinely grateful for the support. I can only think of one other miniature company so obsessed overvaluing its brand...

I think it's fine, which is self-serving to me as well. Through the magic of math, the self-serving's cancel out and we're left with a Thank You I Appreciate! Yay!

If you and everyone else feels that way, great. I don't.

If Wyrd had no interest in giving the Santana's to the 125 tiers, why would they have run a contest with the community last night to get us 40% of the way there on it's own?

Money. They were losing it.

Considering the sense of frustration that festered for a few weeks there, I imagine it would've been a lot easier to just have that tally bump up gradually over the remaining week but fall well short.

How does that follow? It's easy to keep doing what angers your customer base? The easy way out is to give in to the customers demands, but with an outrageous surcharge, without acknowledging that you are doing so as if it was always your plan.

Guess we'll find out in the next 5 days or less, but considering that roughly half of the backers now have an interest in participating, I think it'll happen by Monday or Tuesday, personally.

I'm sure they'll find a way to give lots of people the hope of spending $125 for something rare and collectible plus a couple of coffee table books/impromptu hills. But, will they get to 500 $225 backers without compromising their principles and making the $225 pledge actually reasonable? We'll see.

If anything, I think the opposite; they fully intend to get the middle tiers (their most popular ones by far) Santanas, giving people in the Core tier an extra reason to ponder jumping up, and anyone at the Gaming Room tier who are considering dropping entirely an option to drop down a little instead. Not that this is an ideal outcome for any KS, but presumably the math on the number of people who might drop down is outweighed by those who may bump up and/or join entirely.

Considering this KS was caught in a downward spiral, the math obviously works out. The question is, how many more $100k's would they have made if they did something like this at the beginning. I don't practice Santaneria, I ain't got no crystal ball, but I bet right now I would have been pleased as a peach over getting a Santana, and that Hanna that she found, and several multipose kits with my middle-tier rulebook pledge if things had unfolded differently.

If you're looking for me to feel bad, you're barking up the wrong tree. Not everything will appeal to everyone, and even with at least 2 from Wyrd watching, I have no interest in asking if that warm liquid you're spraying on me is a summer rain. Though it is a little sweet. You should see a doctor. I think that's a sign of diabetes. Or at least an old movie taught me that. It's probably untrue. Though checking your bile and vitriol levels might not be a bad idea, gotta keep in tip top shape.

The doctor only accepts payment in Lord Chompy Bitses. :(

I'm not looking for you to feel bad. I simply expressed (much earlier) that Wyrd's recent Come to Jesus moment hadn't convinced me, and a bunch of people demanded I explain myself. So, I did. Then they quoted me and responded in piecemeal. And then I did the same. And here we are. It's called a circle of verbal violence because it has no end (well, until I am no longer amused enough to keep clicking this link). A quote for a quote leaves the whole world neckbearded.

Or something.

Maybe you haven't read my lengthy diatribes, but I've been vocally critical of certain aspects of this drive since day 1. On their forums and later on here, because I wanted to see it get better. Others were even more critical than I, and while it may be too little, too late for some of their contributions, it has been refreshing to see people recognizing effort. Even if it isn't enough.

So, you agree they have mishandled this KS from day 1. You agree that it may be too little too late for some. I am one of the some. I am telling you why it is too little too late. I recognize that Mr. Martin and the other guy have done some great work and are really wonderful people, real mentsches, but it is still too late. Wyrd's behavior is a shonda, I say. Suddenly this is a problem for you?

You, however, for someone who is utterly "un-invested" seem to be particularly emotionally invested in the kickstarter and how it has influenced you're opinion. You practically seem angry to be disappointed, which I find odd. Personally, when I find a product or company doesn't meet my desires, I shrug and move onto something else. Shame to hear Wyrd and Malifaux aren't for you, but with the raw negativity you exude I see no reason to try to change your mind. I enjoy the game, I hope others do, but at the end of the day the only person that I control the happiness of is myself.

There's a saying where I come from: on the internet, everyone's a schmuck.

Of course I'm emotionally invested now--for days I've been reading a 30-something page thread full of ups, downs and a subtle face-heel-turn fall-from-grace no one saw coming! This is fantastically engrossing. Angry? More like exaggerated to make a clear statement. This is the internet. If I'm going to bother taking the time to post, I might as well post big. It's probably the same principle behind cheesecake minis: if you're going to sculpt female nudity, you might as well leave the realistic proportions and healthy body attitudes at home, buster. No one cares about that stuff.

Good luck finding a game/company you feel better suits your particular needs, and I bid you good day, sir.

Edit: I am full of bbcode fail here today.

Edit 2: and of course, the opinions expressed are purely representative of the participant, and not reflective etc etc etc.

Honestly, I'll still be buying occasional Wyrd minis and any cheap rulebooks (for the fluff) I find on Amazon. I might even do a wikipedia search on the background of Malifaux if I'm feeling particularly motivated. I just do not like what I'm seeing in this Kickstarter.

PS: I just bought some Ten Thunders archers yesterday because I needed some homoerotic Big Trouble in Little China figures for..uhm.. a campaign. Okay, I just like the hats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Hey bob. That stuff that the herald of death level is getting? You can purchase all of that by itself. Herald of death just gets it for free. Jus sayin.

I didn't know it all was. I'm buying some of it. It's also why I'm not too upset: no "You must be this rich to ride" sign for those who just want a nice mini.

No worries. Have fun building the archers. They're a gigantic pain in the ass. Really nice looking, but not the easiest to assemble.

And fwiw, I don't think there's any way it'll hit 500 backers at $225. Not a chance. And even foot doesn't "really" hit it for $125 they will say it did anyways to try and boost numbers for the last two days.

Enquiring minds want to know why it is so important for people that are not geting any free gak from the company to be imp-pressed by those of you that do?

I mean, the KS was gak until the changes came around? 20 pages or so around you guys were not hitting the kool aid so hard that eveyone else who was not in was outside the circle of kool.

Now we see the E peening and fawning of epic proportions, just on principle alone.

Bob was a little spastic in his presentation, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the project was in the beginning supposed to be about an RPG. Then we get two or three pages as to why its so great?

Why didn't you little gits push a few rules books, or starter sets as add ons, or buy ins? Wheres the rest of the range? And then there is the issue of the world itself......
And all your worried about is one or two extra get them here first figures? Thanks, I guess for throwing a biscut, no matter if you dropped it in the toilet or not.

I'm much more interested in the "Make your own crew and run your own deck" line of thinking that this game is either intentionally or unintentionally holding over peoples heads from bringing to the table.
You want an RPG? What about the table top potential for making that happen?

Point here is that you don't have to spread the cheese so much that you lose the message.

They "Improved the project by offering a couple of minis at a lower rate"... Thats great, but you disparaged people in the offset by writing up a project in such a way that your trying to dictate the terms of how people will or will not spend to support a project. You called them off handedly that they were grubbing for supporters options. You bring in the kool aid krew to disparage any and all dissent, and minimalize potential customers.

A little humility goes a long way, you know. Especially when 2 years ago at this time, Wierd was scrounging interest and selling a new little game called Maulfaux with an interesting new concept and some really neat looking base sets and characters.

And Bobs point of you being only one grain of sand on the beach still holds true. Seeing as we are seeing 10-20 KICKSTARTERS a month that are doing the dictating of how people are going to be spending thier money for potentially the next five years if not longer.

Well, 200k appears to be down (at the moment; this campaign has the tendency to shift quite hard in reverse, it's looking like this time it might stick, though).

This would add the pad of sheets, the FM screen, and allow for the expanded creature catalogue to get into the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaaand it's gone.

Just, but only just over 200K.

STICK YOU BASTARD!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Besides, I'm interested in Dreamforge, Gate of Antares, Mantic, Black Library, Iron Kingdoms novels, Sedition Wars, Kingdom Death, Malifaux, Infinity, Mercs, Reaper's Warlord, Super Dungeon Explore, DUST whatever, Dystopian Legions, etc., etc.. I am physically and emotionally incapable of supporting all of these companies/universes/ranges. The ones who come to me and make it easy for me to get hooked are the ones who get my dollars. That's generally how it works with potential customers. That's why Superbowl ads aren't just a bunch of urls telling customers where to go to read up on products they might like.

I'm with you on this one. Sounds like you have piles of games pulling for your dollars, and with a new condo cohabitation looming in 2 weeks, I'm already starting to throw things out, give things away, and eyeing parts of games and collections I haven't touched in years that might be better turned into disposable income (here, other kickstarters, feeding a crippling Steam habit, etc).

We have different feelings on the matter. I'm not against limited or special models in principle, but I do find it distasteful when a company puts out so many of them and creates such a huge, unaddressed demand in the customer community. I find it disagreeable to see such a demand used to punish loyal customers, too. ("You're not pledging high enough. We were going to give you Santanas, but people stopped paying $redonkulous pledges to us, so now we're not going to unless you get your friends to pay it forward." Yes, they changed their mind when their cynicism caused a backlash, but that was clearly their attitude early on.) In the end, the Santana thing alone wouldn't have mattered much to me, but as a part of the bigger picture of this KS (as portrayed in the first 30 pages or so of this thread) it really makes me stand back and see things anew.

There's no two ways about it, a limited edition model is being used to help boost interest, and whether that was their plan originally or not (we'll never know for sure), at least it seems to be working. They went from gaining like $25 in a week to around 8-9k in 3-4 days. It's not exactly blowing up, but combined with the altered/short stretch goals, we just hit the 195k bump to improve the core ($60) tier with one of the decks, and hit the 200k tier for book improvements and the screen/char sheet pad. I'm pretty optimistic that the revised 205k for the pdfs will be hit, which is also something people wanted (would be nice to see a reasonably priced pdf only tier along with it). As for our discussion of Santana making it to the middle tier, according to Mack we're around roughly 625/750 "points", and there will be another community contest lined up. Even at another 50/75/100 points earned with whatever puzzle they put forth, you can't tell me that isn't essentially all but giving it to those tiers, and making it something the group works on together (here, the Wyrd forums, the KS comments page, perhaps the SA forum thread next time, etc) is at least a step in the right direction of making it a community adventure, as it were. Wish it'd been that way from the start, but I do believe recognition should be given when it's due. Too little too late for some backers perhaps, but I guess I just lean on the 'better late than never' side. Would it have been better to not make adjustments and just let this thing wallow in the 191-192 range for the remaining week?

If only they had listened before making it clear that in their eyes I was a greedy, cheapskate, swag-grubbing pre-orderer!

KS is a lot of things to a lot of people, but believe me, I'm the last person you'll see arguing against it being a glorified pre-order system. Hell, I had a 2 page debate with some folks on the Wyrd forums about that point in particular. I pay Bioware $100 3 months in advance, I get a spiffy ME3 Collector's Edition with a tin and hoody for my Shepard and a little Normandy Lithograph etc, etc, versus I give Wyrd $158 or $269 and get the books and some figures and decks (and maybe a doll) etc etc. The reasoning may be different, but as a consumer the outcome is essentially the same. Just so happens that unlike most pre-orders, there's more than 1 or 2 tiers. (there's six four!)

If Wyrd had no interest in giving the Santana's to the 125 tiers, why would they have run a contest with the community last night to get us 40% of the way there on it's own?

Money. They were losing it.

And now they're not. Which is a change in the direction of your point, which was originally that you doubted Wyrd ever intended to give Santana's to the 125 crew. And even if that were true originally (again, to never be known for sure), they seem to be all but giving 'em behind a guise of social media efforts and little puzzles.

I still contend that the final piece was not, in fact, on the third page of the KS thread. Some of us adjust our posts per page. Only crazy people keep it at 10. >.>

I'm sure they'll find a way to give lots of people the hope of spending $125 for something rare and collectible plus a couple of coffee table books/impromptu hills. But, will they get to 500 $225 backers without compromising their principles and making the $225 pledge actually reasonable? We'll see.

Why does it matter if they get to 500 $225 backers? The 225's are getting Santana no matter what, the original 500 contributor goal has been dropped. That said, they're at 377 as of the writing of this post, prior to which they'd been hovering around 350-365 or so. A big leap? Not really, but like with the funding total, it's finally moving in a generally upwards direction again. I do think that if the 125's get Santana that it might be worth looking at sweetening the deal at 225, but that remains to be seen. Again, a deck, a doll and a pair of books for $111 isn't exactly blowing me over.

Considering this KS was caught in a downward spiral, the math obviously works out. The question is, how many more $100k's would they have made if they did something like this at the beginning. I don't practice Santaneria, I ain't got no crystal ball, but I bet right now I would have been pleased as a peach over getting a Santana, and that Hanna that she found, and several multipose kits with my middle-tier rulebook pledge if things had unfolded differently.

No argument here. Should Wyrd run another KS at some point, I hope they take lessons learned from this one and EBO (and others that have succeeded) to improve it. That doesn't mean "I hope they run it like KD:M" or whatever the latest gaming KS hotness might be. Just... in a fashion that draws the community in more easily. More info available at the start, perhaps not as long a drive (we knew momentum wouldn't keep up forever, but a month and a half was a long haul), whatever.

I'm not looking for you to feel bad. I simply expressed (much earlier) that Wyrd's recent Come to Jesus moment hadn't convinced me, and a bunch of people demanded I explain myself. So, I did. Then they quoted me and responded in piecemeal. And then I did the same. And here we are. It's called a circle of verbal violence because it has no end (well, until I am no longer amused enough to keep clicking this link). A quote for a quote leaves the whole world neckbearded.

Or something.

I'll have to read back, but I certainly don't recall trying to neckbeard you into submission.

So, you agree they have mishandled this KS from day 1. You agree that it may be too little too late for some. I am one of the some. I am telling you why it is too little too late. I recognize that Mr. Martin and the other guy have done some great work and are really wonderful people, real mentsches, but it is still too late. Wyrd's behavior is a shonda, I say. Suddenly this is a problem for you?

Perhaps you're misconstruing me with someone else, but I've stated several times that I hold no issue with people for whom this KS doesn't hold appeal. I'd like to spread information so that they can make the most informed choice possible, rather than going on misinformation or a gut feeling, but I know what it's like. I get seeing a dozen KS's I want to back, an entire faction I'd like to buy, and a Steam sale that holds a risk of eating my credit card alive. We all have to set priorities, and unfortunately sometimes the things I'm excited about just aren't going to be enough to excite others. Also, today I learned what a shonda is.

There's a saying where I come from: on the internet, everyone's a schmuck.

Of course I'm emotionally invested now--for days I've been reading a 30-something page thread full of ups, downs and a subtle face-heel-turn fall-from-grace no one saw coming! This is fantastically engrossing. Angry? More like exaggerated to make a clear statement. This is the internet. If I'm going to bother taking the time to post, I might as well post big. It's probably the same principle behind cheesecake minis: if you're going to sculpt female nudity, you might as well leave the realistic proportions and healthy body attitudes at home, buster. No one cares about that stuff.

Honestly, I'll still be buying occasional Wyrd minis and any cheap rulebooks (for the fluff) I find on Amazon. I might even do a wikipedia search on the background of Malifaux if I'm feeling particularly motivated. I just do not like what I'm seeing in this Kickstarter.

PS: I just bought some Ten Thunders archers yesterday because I needed some homoerotic Big Trouble in Little China figures for..uhm.. a campaign. Okay, I just like the hats.

Well I'm glad we can at least discuss this at length. While no stranger to hyperbole (it is the internet, after all), you seemed awfully wrapped up in the matter. This post comes across as far more reasonable and conversational, and I appreciate that. If you can find the books cost effectively, I think the fluff alone will make for an enjoyable read, so I wish you luck with that. God knows I have enough books (rpg and otherwise) I keep around for curling up with on an otherwise ugly day. When they're not all stuffed in boxes. Ye gods this place is a mess.

Anyway, good luck with those Archers. I'll second having heard they're not easy to assemble. Miss Terious was my first plastic model (period, ever) and it was a pretty smooth assembly, but my sprues of the new Guild Box Set and Guild Riflemen made me boggle a bit before putting them away for the next few weeks. Those are gonna have to wait until the move is done.

Edit: 200,700, looks like the 200k stretch goals are pretty solidly earned, and with a decent chunk towards 205k (the pdfs).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I'm fairly pressed for time online, generally, and tend to be fairly focused on what forums I visit. The only miniature wargaming forum I used to visit was Warseer, until the mod staff hulkraged over Kickstarters and essentially told everyone if they wanted to discuss the most exciting developments in wargaming they should go elsewhere. Now, I'm here mostly.

So we have Warseer to thank for your presence here.

Seriously, we get it, you aren't a fan and even though Wyrd has listened to the feedback given by posters here and elsewhere, it doesn't matter to you because they often release limited edition figures (which is about on par with the reincarnation of Mechahitler in your eyes), so therefore you aren't backing this kickstarter that you probably weren't even interested in to begin with.

You've made it abundantly clear. Please stop posting so the rest of us can discuss what we are going to do with our little plastic toys and rpg books (which, at least for me, will include making at least some machine gun noises).

I can DO a machine gun noises, but I prefer pew-pewing when I play with my plastic men. Is this allowed? Or should I wait for the errata?

Salutations!

With only a few days to go, and with another stretch goal being hit, I couldn't help but make another weekend update! It looks like we have broken over 200k and added the character sheets and FM screen to the $125 pledge levels and up!

Now for some reason, I thought I had described the pad of character sheets in an earlier update. I'm not sure what I was thinking because it looks like I never did that! I am going to take this opportunity to correct the situation!

The pad of character sheets aren't the same as those that will go in the back of the book, or online for download once the game goes live. The "back of the book" sheet is the one you guys saw Justin using during the character creation video. It's not finished, as things will change during development, but it's graphically well under way, it's just a matter of figuring out where to put all the boxes.

The Pad of Character Sheets is going to be something else entirely. Currently, my plan is to design the sheets so that they can be folded, and will appear to be immigration paperwork into Malifaux. This will add some "prop flare" to the game table experience. If it's possible, they might even be double sided, with multiple graphic stamps/stains so that the pad contains sheets with different appearances, so that the game group can easily tell their sheets apart.

It's also one of those tools that will be tested during the development cycle. That way the Kickstarter Backers have a chance to influence the appearance, and what goes on the sheet.

I'll get the Kickstarter graphics fixed up tomorrow, and everything should be updated soon. I just wanted to give a hearty thank you to all of your for your support. Seeing us break 200k, and still climbing, is a fantastic sight! I can't wait to s ee where the next few days take us!

Thanks for covering the updates today and yesterday Brook I've had a busy weekend. And by busy, I mean playing Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising...

I'm more excited now about the pad of character sheets than when I thought it was just a pad of character sheets! I'm easily amused

Also, fatemaster screen I'm most excited for those simple because I'm going to get shackled down as fatemaster lol so w/e makes my life easier

 Alfndrate wrote:
Thanks for covering the updates today and yesterday Brook I've had a busy weekend. And by busy, I mean playing Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising...

I'm more excited now about the pad of character sheets than when I thought it was just a pad of character sheets! I'm easily amused

Also, fatemaster screen I'm most excited for those simple because I'm going to get shackled down as fatemaster lol so w/e makes my life easier

The sad thing is, it seems that the pad of character sheets is really a very specific promo item... which might have been good to know. Four weeks ago.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Thanks for covering the updates today and yesterday Brook I've had a busy weekend. And by busy, I mean playing Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising...

I'm more excited now about the pad of character sheets than when I thought it was just a pad of character sheets! I'm easily amused

Also, fatemaster screen I'm most excited for those simple because I'm going to get shackled down as fatemaster lol so w/e makes my life easier

The sad thing is, it seems that the pad of character sheets is really a very specific promo item... which might have been good to know. Four weeks ago.

You know what though... nothing about the character sheets says they're kickstarter exclusive... We might see them for sale in the future, *shrugs* who knows. And I agree, knowing how they differ from the regular character sheets (or that they did differ lol) would have been great to know.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Thanks for covering the updates today and yesterday Brook I've had a busy weekend. And by busy, I mean playing Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising...

I'm more excited now about the pad of character sheets than when I thought it was just a pad of character sheets! I'm easily amused

Also, fatemaster screen I'm most excited for those simple because I'm going to get shackled down as fatemaster lol so w/e makes my life easier

The sad thing is, it seems that the pad of character sheets is really a very specific promo item... which might have been good to know. Four weeks ago.

You know what though... nothing about the character sheets says they're kickstarter exclusive... We might see them for sale in the future, *shrugs* who knows. And I agree, knowing how they differ from the regular character sheets (or that they did differ lol) would have been great to know.

Good point, if they are as intricate as now described, there is a real possibility that they would be for sale later. Maybe. Who knows? Who indeed...

Where's the Mack-signal when you need it.

Forar wrote:

I'm with you on this one. Sounds like you have piles of games pulling for your dollars, and with a new condo cohabitation looming in 2 weeks, I'm already starting to throw things out, give things away, and eyeing parts of games and collections I haven't touched in years that might be better turned into disposable income (here, other kickstarters, feeding a crippling Steam habit, etc).

Yes, we are burdened by choice. I look at my models and say, this too shall pass.

(Wish the dog would stop eating them.)

There's no two ways about it, a limited edition model is being used to help boost interest, and whether that was their plan originally or not (we'll never know for sure), at least it seems to be working. They went from gaining like $25 in a week to around 8-9k in 3-4 days. It's not exactly blowing up, but combined with the altered/short stretch goals, we just hit the 195k bump to improve the core ($60) tier with one of the decks, and hit the 200k tier for book improvements and the screen/char sheet pad. I'm pretty optimistic that the revised 205k for the pdfs will be hit, which is also something people wanted (would be nice to see a reasonably priced pdf only tier along with it). As for our discussion of Santana making it to the middle tier, according to Mack we're around roughly 625/750 "points", and there will be another community contest lined up. Even at another 50/75/100 points earned with whatever puzzle they put forth, you can't tell me that isn't essentially all but giving it to those tiers, and making it something the group works on together (here, the Wyrd forums, the KS comments page, perhaps the SA forum thread next time, etc) is at least a step in the right direction of making it a community adventure, as it were. Wish it'd been that way from the start, but I do believe recognition should be given when it's due. Too little too late for some backers perhaps, but I guess I just lean on the 'better late than never' side. Would it have been better to not make adjustments and just let this thing wallow in the 191-192 range for the remaining week?

Making her available straight out as an add-on pledge, with free copies for the big spenders would have been preferable. Also, some sort of Mea Culpa over their previous passive aggression and a rethink of their pledge levels to give fans of the TT game--their base--some levels to really get excited about. "You play my way or the highway! Wait, where are you going?" is not the ideal form of customer relations.

KS is a lot of things to a lot of people, but believe me, I'm the last person you'll see arguing against it being a glorified pre-order system. Hell, I had a 2 page debate with some folks on the Wyrd forums about that point in particular. I pay Bioware $100 3 months in advance, I get a spiffy ME3 Collector's Edition with a tin and hoody for my Shepard and a little Normandy Lithograph etc, etc, versus I give Wyrd $158 or $269 and get the books and some figures and decks (and maybe a doll) etc etc. The reasoning may be different, but as a consumer the outcome is essentially the same. Just so happens that unlike most pre-orders, there's more than 1 or 2 tiers. (there's six four!)

And yet they make it so hard to pre-order what I really want. Well, maybe the word is not hard, but unappealing.

Money. They were losing it.

And now they're not. Which is a change in the direction of your point, which was originally that you doubted Wyrd ever intended to give Santana's to the 125 crew. And even if that were true originally (again, to never be known for sure), they seem to be all but giving 'em behind a guise of social media efforts and little puzzles.

You see this as listening to the fans after a brief Denethorian insanity. I see it as them listening to the bottom line when they realized those stupid customers weren't following the plan. Tomato/tomahto.

I still contend that the final piece was not, in fact, on the third page of the KS thread. Some of us adjust our posts per page. Only crazy people keep it at 10. >.>

No idea what you're talking about.

I'm sure they'll find a way to give lots of people the hope of spending $125 for something rare and collectible plus a couple of coffee table books/impromptu hills. But, will they get to 500 $225 backers without compromising their principles and making the $225 pledge actually reasonable? We'll see.

Why does it matter if they get to 500 $225 backers? The 225's are getting Santana no matter what, the original 500 contributor goal has been dropped. That said, they're at 377 as of the writing of this post, prior to which they'd been hovering around 350-365 or so. A big leap? Not really, but like with the funding total, it's finally moving in a generally upwards direction again. I do think that if the 125's get Santana that it might be worth looking at sweetening the deal at 225, but that remains to be seen. Again, a deck, a doll and a pair of books for $111 isn't exactly blowing me over.

I was referring to the original goal, which was just audacious and passive-aggressive in equal measure. Sure, they changed things, but only because they were losing money, and not because they went on some spiritual journey and discovered the Meaning of Kickstarter. (Amazon Payments bless us, every one.)

No argument here. Should Wyrd run another KS at some point, I hope they take lessons learned from this one and EBO (and others that have succeeded) to improve it. That doesn't mean "I hope they run it like KD:M" or whatever the latest gaming KS hotness might be. Just... in a fashion that draws the community in more easily. More info available at the start, perhaps not as long a drive (we knew momentum wouldn't keep up forever, but a month and a half was a long haul), whatever.

KDM got very lucky with their timing--opposite TtB, they look like The Shart. Opposite Dreadball or Reaper Bones or Dreamforge or Trollforge, they would have really struggled to compete for the average wargamer's dollar.

And yes, I hope Wyrd performs much better and learns from their (sort of) failure and others' successes.

I'm not looking for you to feel bad. I simply expressed (much earlier) that Wyrd's recent Come to Jesus moment hadn't convinced me, and a bunch of people demanded I explain myself. So, I did. Then they quoted me and responded in piecemeal. And then I did the same. And here we are. It's called a circle of verbal violence because it has no end (well, until I am no longer amused enough to keep clicking this link). A quote for a quote leaves the whole world neckbearded.

Or something.

I'll have to read back, but I certainly don't recall trying to neckbeard you into submission.

I'm not claiming you were necessarily, but it is an unfortunate fact that breaking down a quote and responding line by line causes unsightly hair growth in the neck region. We're all guilty of this, me more than most, but you can't hardly argue about companies that produce little pew-pew plastic men to play with without getting a bit of unwanted throat stubble.

Why else would so many people get so mad that I had a different opinion?

(Really, I was just trying to keep myself interested at this point with the paraphrasing and silly references. I think i also quoted a Sublime song and Gloria Gaynor at some point. Without setting those kinds of personal challenges for myself, I could never maintain interest long enough to reply to a full post.)

Perhaps you're misconstruing me with someone else, but I've stated several times that I hold no issue with people for whom this KS doesn't hold appeal. I'd like to spread information so that they can make the most informed choice possible, rather than going on misinformation or a gut feeling, but I know what it's like. I get seeing a dozen KS's I want to back, an entire faction I'd like to buy, and a Steam sale that holds a risk of eating my credit card alive. We all have to set priorities, and unfortunately sometimes the things I'm excited about just aren't going to be enough to excite others. Also, today I learned what a shonda is.

I may be confusing several people. The memory is not so good. I just know I posted my opinion about Wyrd's handling of the kS, and suddenly I'm neckbeard deep in quotes of quotes of quotes. And I have to go deeper. Zo, I apologise if I was confusing you with someone else or if I had lost your point over the quotation generations.

And you give me such naches.

There's a saying where I come from: on the internet, everyone's a schmuck.

Of course I'm emotionally invested now--for days I've been reading a 30-something page thread full of ups, downs and a subtle face-heel-turn fall-from-grace no one saw coming! This is fantastically engrossing. Angry? More like exaggerated to make a clear statement. This is the internet. If I'm going to bother taking the time to post, I might as well post big. It's probably the same principle behind cheesecake minis: if you're going to sculpt female nudity, you might as well leave the realistic proportions and healthy body attitudes at home, buster. No one cares about that stuff.

Honestly, I'll still be buying occasional Wyrd minis and any cheap rulebooks (for the fluff) I find on Amazon. I might even do a wikipedia search on the background of Malifaux if I'm feeling particularly motivated. I just do not like what I'm seeing in this Kickstarter.

PS: I just bought some Ten Thunders archers yesterday because I needed some homoerotic Big Trouble in Little China figures for..uhm.. a campaign. Okay, I just like the hats.

Well I'm glad we can at least discuss this at length. While no stranger to hyperbole (it is the internet, after all), you seemed awfully wrapped up in the matter.

You haven't seen the threads where I started quoting Melville, then. (Okay, Wrath of Khan, but still!)

I simply need to make posting fun or I'll just walk away when the quoting gets tough, and then people will mistake my lack of interest with defeat, and I'll have to read one of those posts with a picture that says, "Concession accepted, Captain Needa. :smugdog:" And I hate that.

This post comes across as far more reasonable and conversational, and I appreciate that.

I wasn't as bored and you weren't as riled up as some of the others. It's hard not to reply to "Why U HAET??" posts with something equally silly.

If you can find the books cost effectively, I think the fluff alone will make for an enjoyable read, so I wish you luck with that. God knows I have enough books (rpg and otherwise) I keep around for curling up with on an otherwise ugly day. When they're not all stuffed in boxes. Ye gods this place is a mess.

RPG background is great when I just want to use my imagination to make pew-pew stabby-stab noises with my mini mens. Full novels make me think about character growth and themes and stuff, and it's harder to work that in to a blaarrgh, orkanoids! scenario.

Anyway, good luck with those Archers. I'll second having heard they're not easy to assemble. Miss Terious was my first plastic model (period, ever) and it was a pretty smooth assembly, but my sprues of the new Guild Box Set and Guild Riflemen made me boggle a bit before putting them away for the next few weeks. Those are gonna have to wait until the move is done.

Edit: 200,700, looks like the 200k stretch goals are pretty solidly earned, and with a decent chunk towards 205k (the pdfs).

If only they would make an Al Leong mini. I would pledge for that!

The ten archers remind me a lot of Zvezda's "Ring of Don't Buy Us" line of impossibly fiddly minis. But they look so good!

 Alfndrate wrote:
Where's the Mack-signal when you need it.

Every time someone turns it on, I crash the Mackmobile because I look at it instead of the road. It was making my insurance a nightmare.

You ever get that feeling like you were sure you did something, like lock the door, or turn off the oven. But enough people tell you that you didn't, and the evidence is there... so you start to question yourself? I'm getting that really bad right now! Like I just said the word "octopus" wrong and the three people I'm with are looking at me, and telling me I just said "hippopotamus".

 Ozymandias wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I'm fairly pressed for time online, generally, and tend to be fairly focused on what forums I visit. The only miniature wargaming forum I used to visit was Warseer, until the mod staff hulkraged over Kickstarters and essentially told everyone if they wanted to discuss the most exciting developments in wargaming they should go elsewhere. Now, I'm here mostly.

So we have Warseer to thank for your presence here.

I know, right?

Seriously, we get it, you aren't a fan and even though Wyrd has listened to the feedback given by posters here and elsewhere, it doesn't matter to you because they often release limited edition figures (which is about on par with the reincarnation of Mechahitler in your eyes),

You laugh now, but if you had seen the gaunt faces of all those poor souls, worked to the bones as henchmen to receive their limited edition models, trapped behind those convention center gates with the words Arbeit Macht Lord Chompy Bits... you would understand, too. Mechahitler was no joke. Is it any wonder, then, that ElectroHerzl spent his whole life founding the Zionist movement so that one day some young hacker could destroy the mechanazis and make out with leather-clad sunglass babes? Can you not understand the rage of Cyber Wiesenthal, who spent his whole life hunting down limited editions and collecting them?

For my grandparents, the day Mechahitler visited their shtetl was the most important day of their lives. For you, it was Tuesday.

so therefore you aren't backing this kickstarter that you probably weren't even interested in to begin with.

You've made it abundantly clear. Please stop posting so the rest of us can discuss what we are going to do with our little plastic toys and rpg books (which, at least for me, will include making at least some machine gun noises).

Careful, Ozymandias. I might behold your words and despair.

Miggidy_Mack wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Where's the Mack-signal when you need it.

Every time someone turns it on, I crash the Mackmobile because I look at it instead of the road. It was making my insurance a nightmare.

You ever get that feeling like you were sure you did something, like lock the door, or turn off the oven. But enough people tell you that you didn't, and the evidence is there... so you start to question yourself? I'm getting that really bad right now! Like I just said the word "octopus" wrong and the three people I'm with are looking at me, and telling me I just said "hippopotamus".

Got any info on whether or not the pad of character sheets will be available at a later date for sale?

 Alfndrate wrote:

Miggidy_Mack wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Where's the Mack-signal when you need it.

Every time someone turns it on, I crash the Mackmobile because I look at it instead of the road. It was making my insurance a nightmare.

You ever get that feeling like you were sure you did something, like lock the door, or turn off the oven. But enough people tell you that you didn't, and the evidence is there... so you start to question yourself? I'm getting that really bad right now! Like I just said the word "octopus" wrong and the three people I'm with are looking at me, and telling me I just said "hippopotamus".

Got any info on whether or not the pad of character sheets will be available at a later date for sale?

Alas no, I don't have solid information on that. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but I'm not that decision maker there. I'll make sure to mention it to the right people, and we'll see what we can do.