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Flyer are pointless?

Now were all grounded into 6th ed, having faced flyers many times I personally think they are rubbish. When I first read the rules for flyers, I finally had an excuse to swap my Ravagers for Razorwing/Voidravens. Fortunately I never bought any.

The reason I think their over-rated is they generally get 2-3 turns to shoot at stuff - we all know things don't always die from a turn of shooting. Plus if you just ignore shooting at them and run to the 18" mark your saved.

Comparing Dark Eldar. you pay 40 more points to swap ravagers for flyer. (why would you?)

Space Marines swap Speeders for Talons. The talon is just waaay to expensive to justify it. Or on the anti-tank theme, devastators/predators etc. All are more effective and there the same points or cheaper.

Blood A & Grey Knights. They get a stormraven. OK it looks awesome, but on the table its far from awesome. A recent game against it, it managed to kill 1 tau gun drone. 10 points killed and costs >200. Needless to say my opponent lost when 15% of his points was useless.

The only one I feel love for is the necrons due to the dedicated transport option, but again they cost alot of points.

Imperial Guard Vendettas... OK 130 points for 3 lascannons. Squads of 3 in the fast attack slot is sweet, but..... swaying away from game terms they cost £55 for 1. So go all out and get 9 of the suckers for £495. Not many parents or wives will put that ahead of new wallpaper.

Anyway, just my thoughts after maybe 15ish 1500-2000 point games in 6th. Have others had good results dropping that Predator for a stormtalon etc?

As a DE player I know the feeling that having something that does not come on the table in turn 1 is a bit hard as we are all about the alfa strike.

Other armies...not so mutch...

Flyers are hard to get coversaves from. Only hitting on 6's is bad. And stormravens are not useless. The GK one has very good misiles IMHO and I was up against one that had the assassins along with a xenos iquesistor. They had hammerhand and my thoughnes was redused by one. It was really harsh to say the least.

Yeah, I dont deny they have some neat tricks up there sleeve, such as mindstrike missiles. It's points v points aspect I wonder if they are worth it? The raven is similar points to a landraider. In terms of survivability, their similar. In firepower they are similar, but a LR gets 5-7 terms of shooting, but the raven gets 2-3 turns.
6th is about objective capture. A LR get get in the way of troops or tank shock them. A Raven flys over them and off the board.
I don't deny they have a purpose, but IMHO other things can fulfil their purpose better.

i personally have quit playing them. everytime i decide to board one, someone always gets a lucky shot and blast the thing.

guess i'm storm raven cursed.....but it just looks so dang cool.

I have heard that the CSM Heldrake is quite a beast.

gOatsticks, I do think you would need to back up your stormraven. I would imagine holding back and taking out his threats to the stormraven with superior range. This would include skyfire units, fire dragons and other high melta number, things with re-roll and things with high S. When the storm raven do aproach you get the opertunaty to come in where it is needed. Sounds good to me.

My SW usualy runn drop pods, so I am not so conserned with the landraider if I am playing them. Also my MC's in the tyranid list can now smash them. But flyers...not so mutch.

Ferrit wrote:
Flyer are pointless?

Comparing Dark Eldar. you pay 40 more points to swap ravagers for flyer. (why would you?)
Blood A & Grey Knights. They get a stormraven. OK it looks awesome, but on the table its far from awesome. A recent game against it, it managed to kill 1 tau gun drone. 10 points killed and costs >200. Needless to say my opponent lost when 15% of his points was useless.
The only one I feel love for is the necrons due to the dedicated transport option, but again they cost alot of points.
Imperial Guard Vendettas... OK 130 points for 3 lascannons. Squads of 3 in the fast attack slot is sweet, but..... swaying away from game terms they cost £55 for 1. So go all out and get 9 of the suckers for £495. Not many parents or wives will put that ahead of new wallpaper.

Ok first, the DE flyers are overcosted and generally underperform. They were written before the flyer rules were fully understood and frankly they just stink.

Stormravens are awesome. Very hard to kill, decent firepower, and can start hovering to become an assault vehicle.

'cron air is currently VERY powerful. far from pointless.

vendettas are awesome, everyone should ally them in because it is so easy and they are so good. sure they are $70 but you can convert them easily for $35. I got two for $55 out of a ork dakkajet, an extra hull and some lascannons.

Are the DE flyers overcosted and underperform? :-/ I currently am painting a razorwing yetfighter. The missiles in particular looks like funn. *pew pew*

Generally, the main motivation for DE to take fliers is to have something to shoot down enemy fliers.

That's actually one of the stronger motivations to take a flier.

my friends tried to make a house rule. no flyers.

why you ask? they all play GK. when i found out they had no anti air....

So far the razorwing has worked wonders for me but the losing a ravager hurts which I kinda feel obligated to replace venoms with lance raiders but for 165 points it averages a decent amount of wounds.

 Niiai wrote:
Are the DE flyers overcosted and underperform? :-/ I currently am painting a razorwing yetfighter. The missiles in particular looks like funn. *pew pew*

yes, the DE flyers are overcosted. The void raven bomber is a pretty good anti flyer, but no where near vendetta class.

g0atsticks wrote:
my friends tried to make a house rule. no flyers.

why you ask? they all play GK. when i found out they had no anti air....

They do, though. They can take a Stormraven. A psychic stormraven, even!

They can also take an Aegis Defense Line.

I'd say no.

Dakkajet is basically a flying loota squad.

Dakkajet costs 8.5 lootas and has slightly less firepower but makes up for as survivability, precision and versatility. Lootas have 6+ armor save and ld 7. Pretty much everything can kill them.

Also dakkajet is fast while lootas are elite.

 kronk wrote:

g0atsticks wrote:
my friends tried to make a house rule. no flyers.

why you ask? they all play GK. when i found out they had no anti air....

They do, though. They can take a Stormraven. A psychic stormraven, even!

They can also take an Aegis Defense Line.

I'd say no.

they can ally with IG and take 3 vendettas


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Dakkajet is basically a flying loota squad.

Dakkajet costs 8.5 lootas and has slightly less firepower but makes up for as survivability, precision and versatility. Lootas have 6+ armor save and ld 7. Pretty much everything can kill them.

Also dakkajet is fast while lootas are elite.

and 8.5 lootas arent very useful. 5 is a good small unit that will die in a stiff breeze. not overkill firepower or anything
15 lootaz are overkill but are fearless.

Well we don't actually own any flyers, but Christmas is coming and grandma asked what I wanted. I said this particular "model"...she said, "Isn't that as toy."

I make it a habit of just ignoring fliers myself. They can never score or contest objectives, and they take points away from those things that can. I've certainly won games before by just focusing on the ground game and letting those poor fliers circle around a field empty of friendly ground units wishing that they could do something.

Of course, storm ravens, night scythes, and vendettas are somewhat of an exception as they can carry scoring units. When they don't, though, I just ignore them like any other flier. In a game of 40k, you take casualties, it's the strategic impact that units have that's important. In the case of fliers, with their arriving late and leaving early, it tends not to be too much.

In my last game, my almost-all infantry Deathguard litterally slaughtered a Grey Knights army by blowing the Stormtalon out of the sky with a few shots from Obliterators and a Defiler, with more Obliterators slaughtering the survivors with their plasma cannons. My Havocs, with anti-air missiles, never managed to hit anything... but perhaps the fact that the Stormtalon was flying in hover mode (to disembark its passagers) made a difference here.

Unless you're fielding AP 2 guns, flyers aren't much a bother to plague marines. Just bigger flies...

I heard stormravens were for dropping purgator squads on things.

I like to do something similar with nightscythes, immortals feel wasted if they don't have a way to get around easily and focus fire things and necrons really lack forward scoring if you don't try to push your units further. Twin linked destructors are pretty nice to have around if you've got enough gauss/haywire anyway. It's just an all around useful shot. Doom scythes are pretty neat in that they are a good silver bullet, but not really to be too relied upon because of that not being around all the time business.

Vendettas are a great way to add a little flier defense to an army, seeing as how reliably they can knock a couple HP off light vehicles and they are cheap lascannons for those who don't get to enjoy that on their own. I like melta vets too.
Maybe you are getting the idea that I like things that make it easier for me to single units out and how potent short range shooting tends to be if it can be concentrated at a whim. I guess that's just my letting the way I like to play dictate listbuilding.

A place for everything and everything in it's place I'd say. There are a lot of lists that have nothing to fear from flyers, just like there are a lot of lists that have nothing to fear from landraiders.

Wait. Flyers are amazing.

This whole thread is a joke right?

Right?

Guys?

I personally love my dakkajets. I usually take two of them. I also take lots of lootas (btw use a skyshield and they don't die so easily) Dakka jets do perform a role that static lootas sometimes cannot, they often reach units placed out of LOS or or crack a couple extra vehicles opening up the way for boyz to do their job easier. But like anything, Fliers are just one more tool in the toolbox. If its the hammer and you need a screwdriver, obviously don't use the hammer. Use the screwdriver.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Wait. Flyers are amazing.

This whole thread is a joke right?

Right?

Guys?

I can't tell when anyone is joking on these sites, usually everyone comes off as poorly socialized or an ass-hole. I guess that's what you get when people come online to talk about the game they're heavily invested in. Probably some sort of grain of salt thing to deal with vs being on the internet. Most hobby folks I've met are decent, but you never can tell from behind a computer.

I'm assuming the OP just doesn't have a lot of experience with Fliers beyond the one anecdote, and has definitely never seen a Necron Air Force.

The csm dragon and it's flamer is amazing. This flyer has single handed made me put anti air in my lists now...

My friend spent ages bragging how his new dakkajet was going to waste my necrons and he couldnt wait to use it. Well it turned up turn 2, couldnt hit anything due to imoteks night fighting and was put down in my following turn by my annilation barge.

The look on his face was priceless!!!

fliers dont scare my boys at all!!!

Flyers are rubbish huh? Ok...

Most armies don't have an AA option without having to take a fortification. Several armies have limited flyers to use to fight other flyers. And since most people are adjusting to the use of flyers, of course they aren't working out. They had problems in WWI trying to figure out how to use aircraft as more than just observation platforms. They got over it. And we shall, too...

 azazel the cat wrote:
I'm assuming the OP just doesn't have a lot of experience with Fliers beyond the one anecdote, and has definitely never seen a Necron Air Force.

Yup, I would say you are right. But it's still nice to see the age old logic of 'got unlucky once, must be crap' is still alive on Dakka through the OP

I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

pepe5454 wrote:
I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

chaos only gets them on devistators(havocs) and the upgrade is exorbitant

Ya but I went up against them at the last tourney anyways and they did pretty good against me jets. So if a local meta is full of flyer heavy lists I think they will pop up in response.