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I'm struggling to determine what the best ranged anti-tank units are in the Chaos book without having the price tag of Obliterators, but also keeping their versatility. I'm thinking that the answer lies in having a bunch of Havoc squads. I tested out the 4 Autocannon squad yesterday and I like the amount of firepower they put out for their cost, so I'm definitely having at least one of those units.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Note that I'm asking this question in terms of a foot list.

Lascannon and Autocannon Predator.

Land Raider, Defiler, Predator, Melta-Troops, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend, Havocs and Vindicator are all good choices for Anti-tank in the book.

Autocannon Havocs make decent anti-air too.
Ultimately, anything with a reasonable amount of Str6+ shots, or an acceptable number of Str7+ shots makes good anti-tank, so pick something you like that fits the bill and go for it.

In terms of anti-tank chaos has alot of options.

5th edition was all about obliterators. But I think other options have gotten stronger in comparison to them.

I love the defiler, BOOM** and CLAWS that go cCzzzzzhzhhhh! Unfortunately it still has a bad habit of blowing up. (needs AV13 atleast)

My mainstay is lascannon havocs. I know I want lascannons, and they are in my opinion the best carrier for them in the book.

I think Autocannon Havocs in cover is the best. Autocannons have good range, high enough strength to tackle most vehicles, and are dirt cheap which means more upgrades for everything else.

 l0k1 wrote:
I think Autocannon Havocs in cover is the best. Autocannons have good range, high enough strength to tackle most vehicles, and are dirt cheap which means more upgrades for everything else.

Agreed, the army will just need Meltas for those pesky AV13-14 targets ya just can roll good enough to get, or get at all.

Autocannon Havocs behind an Aegis Defence Line is pretty tough.

Autocannon/Las sponson Predators

Also, for anti-tank, 3 Bikers with 2 Meltas is pretty good for the points.

The havocs are nice but only because they are cheap. They still don't come close to the reliability of the obliterators.

Obliterators better save negates a lot of weapons that give the havocs problems, most of the long range template weapons which can wipe out the squad.

Obliterators are always using the best gun for the job so even with less shots are probably getting more kills. Havocs only really shine vs light transports or weaker monstrous creatures. Autocannons are only putting 1.5 wounds on MEQ, so they are not much better than bolters vs an infantry heavy list. Plasma cannons on the other hand...

The ADL isn't a magic fix for them either. It is fairly easily countered if you do proper terrain placement. Your opponent plops down an ADL in his deployment zone? Plop down a forest right in front of it.

What about 2x melta, 2x flamer in a rhino? Use them like you would another MSU plague marine squad with a little better anti-troop firepower. It would make a good unit for supporting assault troops.

Kevlar wrote:
The havocs are nice but only because they are cheap. They still don't come close to the reliability of the obliterators.

You mean the reliability of not being able to fire the same weapon two turns in a row? As ranged AT goes Assault Cannon doesn't really fit the bill, so you are left with Lascannons every second turn only. Unless by ranged the OP doesn't mean ranged...

I need to throw my hat in for Lascannon Havocs. I usually run 7 of them, with Mark of Nurgle and VotLW. Seems pricey at first, but in games, they are a BEAR to take down. If you dump them in some cover somewhere, barring a Flamer of Tzeentch bath or a Baleflammer, those guys will be there for a while busting up armored targets.
I tried using AC and Las Havocs unmarked at minimum size and I found that even a little bit of fire directed their way would knock down their damage output a lot, and they would even fail morale checks and hoof it.
Then again, I play foot based Death Guard and this might play more to my play style.

When it comes to cheap and cheerful AT, I generally find the Tri-las pred to be the best compromise between cost, reliability and firepower.

It's not quite as cheap as a Minimum havoc las squad, but it's quite a bit harder to take down, with AV 13 in front, while minimum size havoc squads tend to be prime shooting targets due to their squishiness. The fact that it can also move and still shoot ok gives it greater mobility, though I generally tend to just movie it into position turn 1 and leave it there. For the points, it costs exactly the same points as a las havoc squad, trading 4 las shot for 2 + 1twin linked shot, which is not that great a loss. Still more shooty and cheaper than two Nurgle obliterators!

Now grated, a squad of 7 havoks with a mark WOULD provide both more firepower and resilience, but I personally think that at this point, you really should be looking into a Forge Fiend, which puts both other options into shame, or 2-3 Obliterators.

I generally prefer the tri las variant on the predator, as I find that the 25pts upgrade over the autocannon is worth it for the guaranteed hit, and the AP2, especially since I often end up turning my shots against enemy terminators and MCs, and I also dont really need the help taking AV11 vehicles out. I prefer to run Autocannon havocs for that. Given how cost effective these two HS slots tend to be, I generally run them both, with a third one being either a Defiler, a Vindicator or a single Nurgle Obliterator as points allow, for maximum versatility.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
The havocs are nice but only because they are cheap. They still don't come close to the reliability of the obliterators.

You mean the reliability of not being able to fire the same weapon two turns in a row? As ranged AT goes Assault Cannon doesn't really fit the bill, so you are left with Lascannons every second turn only. Unless by ranged the OP doesn't mean ranged...

No I mean the reliability of not getting taken out by a single shot from a hell turkey or something similar.

My obliterators advance toward the enemy so lascannon followed by multi-melta work quite well. And the plasma-assault cannon combo is great vs infantry. Alternating weapons isn't much of a hindrance.

I would gladly field Preds in a mech list. I should've mentioned in the OP that I was looking for anti-tank in a foot list.

I tested out this Heavy Support config today:

3 Oblits with Mark of Nurgle

5 Havocs with 4 Autocannons

5 Havocs with 4 Lascannons, VOTLW

The Oblits are the weakest part IMO. Everyone else performed as I expected (The Autocannon Havocs are absurd for their point cost, more so than I expected). The fact they have to switch weapons every turn really really hurts their strengths. My main issue right now is trying to figure out how to deal with AV14. I didn't use an ADL for the Havocs since I don't have one yet, but at my FLGS's tourneys, we have terrain pre-placed, so terrain placement isn't an issue.

Lascannon havocs. Chaos gets lascannons cheaper than any codex. 5 with 4 lascannons is 155 points

Where i play I generally end up playing wiht the chaos player, and his 2 ML/2 autocannons Havoc squad can turn anything in range to waste, troops, MC, vehicles

I've already got the Havocs in my list, but now am trying to figure out if I should add an all Lascannon Pred or 2 MoN Oblits.

Ah, Lacannons Pred proved its worth last game, he went with twinlinked lascannon turret and lascannon sponsons.

I think the best way to midigate the oblits having to fire different weapons is by taking more than one squad of them. Basicly task them with doing one thing or another. Squad 1 shoots at tanks one turn, then Squad 2 does is the next. I can't voice how awesome Plasma Cannons are, and the threat power armored opponents see them as. Personally I currently run 4 oblits and then the 4AC havoc squads.

I've really been wanting to get god use out of the Defiler, I mean 4 HP with a 5++ is pretty awesome. Unfortunatly deamons don't care about being doubled out, cause they can't be.

That's an interesting idea Joe with 2 Oblit squads. I'll try it out.

Ranged anti-tank
in a codex that includes forgefiends

...whats the question again?

Kevlar wrote:


No I mean the reliability of not getting taken out by a single shot from a hell turkey or something similar.

How do you manage to lose W2 2+ units to a single ap3 flamer? Must be some terrible rolling there.

I don't play chaos but I have a regular opponent who runs a squad of oblits with MoN and a Tri-las pred. The fact the oblits have to change weapon isn't too bad, he usually finds something to shoot at. The tri-las pred is pretty good, but I never usually let it live past turn 1 >.>

I think autocannon havocs are a poor idea. It's similar to the guard argument of Lascannon HWT vs Autocannon HWT. The autocannon is below par at pretty much everything except for Av:12 and less where it's ok. The lascannon is just so much better at its job and can knock out a transport or AV:13/14 very easily.

I vote oblits and tri-las pred.

I run a Helbrute with a lascannon, a Land Raider, and a pack of Havocs with missile launchers and flakk. Handles armor issues pretty well.

How do autocannon Havocs have an edge on them, especially as AA defense? Cheaper, yes, but no skyfire? And how do you deal with major armor, like a Land Raider or a Monolith?

Since I am using a foot list, I ignore flyers. Seriously, they don't scare me, the only flyer that can actually hurt my list is other Heldrakes, and when I do come across them, I abuse max coherency. I did that in my test game against an IG player that had a ton of AP3/2 templates and I still had troops on the table after 6 turns.

EDIT: In terms of Autocannon Havocs, I don't use them for AA. They hunt AV10-12 and the Lascannons pick up at AV13, with fingers crossed when firing against AV13.

No one at my FLGS uses Monoliths. LRs I can hunt side armor with Lascannons when I deploy appropriately.

I have 14+ autocannon shots a turn in my list and they are scary good

Forgemonsters are good catch all dakka. S8 is pretty useful and a billion shots tend to do work! Eldar may have died out a bit but there is something of a boost in targets for 4+. Not always reasonable to rely heavily on str7.

I do like S7 spam though. It's really cheap if havocs are a lil vulnerable. Msu bikes with melta and combi melta are decent to cheaply fill in the gaps. 2x msu biker units and 3x autocannon havocs. That's a really cheap way to cover your bases and have units that have lots of potential! Spend some points on allies and troop blocks

The big problem with Forge Fiends IMHO is that they come in base at 175. Yes that does give you 8 S8 autocannon shots on a AV 12 vechicle with 3 HP and and 5++ and Will not Die. It is also BS3. Not trying to knock on it that hard but, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

What converstions like this sometimes boil down to is one person saying well what about exibit A and what about exibit B. If a good player is faced with alot of threats, they'll deal with them accordingly. My opinion is that certian things work well for some people and not for others, I also believe in dice gods and thus have MULTIPLE different sets of dice (keep 'em seperated, segragation is cooperation). But I already added my peice about what I think is good, and I'll have to try out some of what you guys take.

Yeah, I think the way I feel about forge fiends is you take them either if you aren't covering your bases between heavy torrent fire and high strength fire (Chaos lists are more likely to be lacking S8+ solutions than ability to throw down a lot of S6-7 hits) they are a nice way to hedge your bets, and the dumb demon abilities give you power turns. The other reason to take them seems to be for saturation.

They can also be helpful if you face a lot of diverse necron lists, they aren't totally awful shooting up (BS doesn't matter when snap firing), they tear apart warrior units and the S8 fire gives you a little game against their borg shields.

I do think there is more that can be done here to discuss than just giving neat options, I think in the describing the situations where they are effective or carrying a lot of weight or in environmental situations we can help narrow things down for the guy. I think Chaos's heavy support is a big deal for most lists, probably because there is so much else you'll want to spend your points on and heavy support really tells you what you will have to be shoring up elsewhere in your plan.

My mate is using two hades forgefiends, alongside a unit of las-havoks. Its working out pretty well so far.

once i get done my standard HS slots will proabbly be:

2 Autocannon, 2 lascannon havocs (still pretty cheap at 135 points)
Hades Forgefiend
Vindicator/Obliterators (game dependant)

 AresX8 wrote:
LRs I can hunt side armor with Lascannons when I deploy appropriately.

?????

Land Raider is 14 all around last time I checked...... You mean predators?