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Thanks for hoping on board and answering some questions James.

It's good hear they are retooling the hard plastic sprues and are going to get them right, 90% isn't nearly close enough, I'll take a delay of several months any time to get 100% right. I think Mantic need to draw back from this we ship everything on time at the expense of quality point of view and rather go with OK we might be a bit late but we'll keep you informed and the product will be the very best it can be. It's probably last chance on the hard plastic sprues for most people after some the previous ones so better to be sure.

I really would still like to see some photos of production models in the bare restic before the MA KS ends if that's possible, I understand not wanting to put second rate camera phone shots out after the Marauder pictures but putting nothing out at all whilst saying we've seen them they're fine isn't enough either.

I don't want to be down on Mantic I've spent a lot of money with them recently and see them as a genuine replacement for their bigger rival who I won't buy from again so any feedback comes from a genuine want to see them succeed and grow. As I said very happy with most of the Dreadball stuff there's just a few finishing touches let it down here and there.

Yep good update, pretty much exactly what I wanted to hear. There are currently issues, so they're not shipping those things. If there are still issues come wave 2, they'll ask first what we want to do. Hard plastic minis in deadzone were never essential for me, though I do really like them.

Good quality sculpts, all in restic, with the option of refunding any of the hard plastic if it looks dodgy (before it ships) is a good result. I'd echo above though that seeing profuction minis before the Mars Attacks KS ends is *very* relevant though. The Dreadball pics they include look really good, so assuming they're like that, very happy indeed.

Ah... so the base game comes with 4 enforcers with rifles, plus some other stuff like the captain and engineer. We're still getting restic captain and engineer and whatnot, but the _basic enforcer infantry_ will be delayed to perfect the hard plastic sprue so in the meantime we get the Warpath Enforcer infantry baggie to hold us over.

Great update, Mantic are doing whatever they can and I'm much happier with the "if its terrible, we'll just do restic instead" approach.

However, it also just goes to show the full extent of fail from their tooling company:

- Battlezone sprue scrapped and retooled once.
- Connector sprue scrapped and retooled three times.
- Zombies scrapped and retooled once (so far).

Sounds like the Chinese factory just doesn't have a clue about anything that they're being paid to do or a shred of commitment to quality, or interest in the product.
No idea who they're using but it sure as hell can't be Wargames Factory. Everything they've tooled so far has been absolute gak, and it took them three attempts just to get a sprue with rectangle clips fitting into rectangle slots done correctly (all of it 3d modeled).

The men-at-arms were not an "improvement" as the DZ update states, they are worse.

I own both and would happily buy more goblins (the underlying sculpt is really good even if the tooling is crap) but there is no way I'm buying more MAA.. with those you have terrible sculpting and terrible tooling.

How many repeated failures, mistakes, incompetency, mutiple-retooled moulds, plane trips to send staff over to babysit etc. etc. is it going to take before Mantic decides to give up with China and look at one of the UK companies who produce fantastic hard plastic tools and are low priced and actively seeking clients in the wargames industry?

 judgedoug wrote:
Ah... so the base game comes with 4 enforcers with rifles, plus some other stuff like the captain and engineer. We're still getting restic captain and engineer and whatnot, but the _basic enforcer infantry_ will be delayed to perfect the hard plastic sprue so in the meantime we get the Warpath Enforcer infantry baggie to hold us over.

thats how I read it.

Works for me and I'm happy with a delay if it means I get a quality product. I've never complained once about Dreamforge and there are lengthy delays there.

I want to like Mantic again; I really do, but I also want them to focus on doing this right and not on the next kickstarter.

We'll see what happens because I'm still getting a bit of dejavu with the "we can't show pics" because they said the same during KoW when they told us they rushed the masters right off to the manufacturer and didn't stop to take a pic or two....

 edlowe wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Ah... so the base game comes with 4 enforcers with rifles, plus some other stuff like the captain and engineer. We're still getting restic captain and engineer and whatnot, but the _basic enforcer infantry_ will be delayed to perfect the hard plastic sprue so in the meantime we get the Warpath Enforcer infantry baggie to hold us over.

thats how I read it.

That makes it easier to read at work, thanks guys. I can handle waiting for quality and have the "get-me-by" additional Enforcers. Even though I have more than enough already. I could actually field a SM army with Mantic enforcers at current price costs!

Okay, them I am totally happy then. Basically - they are delaying some figures to make them good as the tooling wasn't up to their new (higher) quality standards, and are giving us pre-existing freebies as "get you by" for now - that's actually more than most other companies would do (which would be just to delay it all, period). And to top it off, the terrain sprues look fantastic.

Well, whip out your 256-color crayola box and color me "Pleased".

Yeah I really think they need to start to send there tooling here in the U.K. I was discussing this with friends the other week and I'm a firm believer they need to find a way to bring the restic/Plastic production in house or here in the U.K. at least.

 judgedoug wrote:
Okay, them I am totally happy then. Basically - they are delaying some figures to make them good as the tooling wasn't up to their new (higher) quality standards, and are giving us pre-existing freebies as "get you by" for now - that's actually more than most other companies would do (which would be just to delay it all, period). And to top it off, the terrain sprues look fantastic.

Well, whip out your 256-color crayola box and color me "Pleased".

Hopefully this is the direction they take and keep in the future: fairly easy to follow update (long isn't a problem here) and freebie fixes added on to what you're already getting when delays happen. 95% of us on Dakka (I'm not taking other sites into account) said wed be happy to wait longer for non-rushed jobs (as long as we're kept in the loop), and they're giving that to us with freebies tacked on to get us by.

I'm fine with the latest.

Just get the game to me with competent pieces and I'll be happy.

I too would love to see them get a handle on their tooling. Maybe if there's enough outcry from the public they'll start looking a bit more seriously at local homegrown plastic providers.

I'm all for keeping business at home, wherever home may be.

I might be wrong but I think that the Undead and other initial KoW plastics were Renedra (a UK oufit I believe) but they got too backed up to do the Mantic stuff later so they looked further afield. I'm sure someone will correct me here if I'm off the mark.

Hi there.

Pathfinder Dave wading in after a lifetime of lurking. Sometimes you guys have valid point, and sometimes it seems misinformation and speculation can be the worst enemy.

I'd like to add my take on the little tooling debate. Moving tooling to the UK is not a definite guarantee of success, nor is moving it in house.

Additionally, Mantic are being very candid about their successes and failures in plastic tooling - we often don't hear about this form other companies, so that it too several attempts to get a sprue right is not a bad thing. I've heard the same of renedra and GW - multiple attempts to correct errors. In fact, if anything its shows a determination to push the quality as high as they can get it. Like people have said, they are looking now more into getting results rather than deadlines.

Hopefully that's enough.

It's like everything in business Sukura, you are going to go the route of getting the most for the least and giving the least for the most. That's how you make money. There is a ceratin amount of honesty and ethics involved, but that honesty and ethics unfortunately derived from just trying to keep the revenue streams flowing.

Just criticizing Mantic on their tooling decisions (in particular where the tools are based and how many attempts they are willing to suffer) is a bit of a stretch. They aren't gonna send money overseas just because. Most companies would prefer to keep money inside their own economy, so going to China is not something they'd do just because they think Chinese women are hot and want an excuse to pick up some chicks (or Birds rather....they are British). It's because more lucrative deals are being made there. Part of their contract may be that retooling costs a lower percentage then what can they can find in the UK, and material costs may be significantly cheaper. Even a 10% increase per model might push you out that way if you have a deep enough run.

I just don't think many of us know enough of the details to be too harsh on someone's business decisions. Making suggestions is one thing, but assuming they are morons when it comes to expanding their company is something else.

 edlowe wrote:

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Also: im not happy with the doc girls who turned into a monster. The concept art showed something a lot more femalish, she now looks like a woman body builder... :/

actually I much prefer her this way, more in fitting with the other 3rd stages.

You say that like it's a good thing. The Plague still look like parodies of the worst aspects of Mantic's sculpting.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 edlowe wrote:

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Also: im not happy with the doc girls who turned into a monster. The concept art showed something a lot more femalish, she now looks like a woman body builder... :/

actually I much prefer her this way, more in fitting with the other 3rd stages.

You say that like it's a good thing. The Plague still look like parodies of the worst aspects of Mantic's sculpting.

I really like the plague 3rd gens, less zombie more mutant. I also (and I know many people dont) like the kow trolls and I've come round to liking the orx especially the basic troops. I think imho if she'd be too slim or different to the 3rd gens then she'd stick out and wouldn't fit the factions style. I know im probably in the minority here but I like what I like!

 edlowe wrote:

I really like the plague 3rd gens, less zombie more mutant.

I agree. I've started thinking of them more along the lines of The Incredible Hulk than anything zombie-ish.

Though it's a pity Simmonds doesn't look a little more like She-Hulk. :p

 edlowe wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 edlowe wrote:

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Also: im not happy with the doc girls who turned into a monster. The concept art showed something a lot more femalish, she now looks like a woman body builder... :/

actually I much prefer her this way, more in fitting with the other 3rd stages.

You say that like it's a good thing. The Plague still look like parodies of the worst aspects of Mantic's sculpting.

I really like the plague 3rd gens, less zombie more mutant. I also (and I know many people dont) like the kow trolls and I've come round to liking the orx especially the basic troops. I think imho if she'd be too slim or different to the 3rd gens then she'd stick out and wouldn't fit the factions style. I know im probably in the minority here but I like what I like!

I'm with you ed, I like the 3rd gens alot and I'm glad she has been done in the same style!

I'm not big on the plague, but Simmons is aesthetically appropriate. Far more than she was. That said, first gen plagues are some of the best minis Mantic has!!

I think she looks more like the monster she's become in the background. Brutal yet with her intelligence warped but intact. Jekyll and hyde?

Welcome sukura! Great to see you here.

I actually thought Black Nexus was your account for a while since you had the same avatars here/ on the mantic forums. :p

 sukura636 wrote:
I'd like to add my take on the little tooling debate. Moving tooling to the UK is not a definite guarantee of success, nor is moving it in house.

Well, that's fair enough, but if Mantic ever change their mind I have half a dozen really nice PDC sprues that I think could make a pretty strong case to the contrary.

Might be worth having a drive down to Wiltshire for a chat with them, they're experienced, really know their stuff, are wargamers themselves, and they have successfully delivered (on time) a kickstarter with 5 hard plastic sprues after getting a mere £11k of funding. They even had a pledge level for wargames companies to get a sprue tooled for £2500, and are currently looking for companies who want hard plastic tooling to get in touch.

Plus their kickstarter was tooled, produced and delivered in their spare time (evenings and weekends) over the space of 3 months. The overall impression I've gotten from following the campaign and their progress has been "these guys really know their stuff".

I'd just like Mantic to succeed, they're not going to get where they want without hard plastic and quite frankly the Chinese company doesn't seem interested in/ committed to/ capable of quality with that for whatever reason. Mantic shouldn't be having to spend valuable time, resources and grey hairs having to babysit them, they should already be capable of doing the job Mantic paid them to do. That's just my opinion on it.

I find it odd that so many customers in this thread say they can't afford to ask for a refund because of postage costs.
Esp. given all the cases of mispackaging, sending out things not ordered and sending out products even Mantic is not happy about.
Guess customers have to adapt one way or the other. Not sure Mantic will like that.

SS, Mantic is only having problems with the organic lines for plastic atm aren't they? PDC has shown no ability to do them yet. They can make the inorganic stuff (mine are yet to arrive though ; p), but Mantic has no problem with that I think. From my limited, painkiller hazed understanding of the issue.

I think the idea of the whole 'organic lines' thing is, Mantic are using that as their yardstick for deciding. "Is Hard Plastic the right tool for the job."

It's the 'hard' thing to do, so if they can work it out correctly, then the easier armour plating type figures should, in theory, be fine too.

you'd have to consider that they're either exploring uk options, or discredited them as not being able to provide what they want.

agreed that the china solution isn't working at the moment.

Also, DreadBall Team and DZ faction decks are now on the kickstarter. There's even a pledge for the DB team.

@Yonan: Correct, organics would need to be demo'd.

Think they could handle it though, there is quite literally 0.1mm levels of detail on the sprues I'm looking at right now, it is right on par with Renedra.. wiping out the detail just by putting a layer of paint over the top is a serious concern!

I know the files they're working from are likely quite different, but Hawk Wargames also got the plastic sprues for their new 2-player box set made in hard plastic in the UK... with excellent results.

It's fair to say we don't know what Mantic has looked at up to this point, but as even Black Nexus points out, it's also fair to say that the solution they've pursued so far for hard plastic is definitely not working.

The Plague "supertorso" and other distorted features are really growing on me (get ready to run when my mind goes too!). Simmonds doesn't exactly match her concept art, but she more closely matches the rest of the plague, and I am happy it worked out that way.

I was looking forward to sinking my teeth into the new enforcer sculpts, but if they want to send me what amounts to 10 free current enforcers, then I'll be fine with that. But... Did it say anywhere in the update that these were specifically the warpath ones? I read it on my phone, and didn't see it, but I'm guessing this is interpreted as implied? If thats the case then does the restic baggy contain the metal bits for the assault blade and burst laser... or am I mistaken and those actually exist in the restic strike team?

Terrain looks fugging amazing, with just a couple of clips he was wailing on that thing, I'm excited. A little worried that paint is going to muck things up a bit (especially if I end up dipping them for extra protection), but those look awesome and I'm glad I ordered many-lots.

Nastanza (or w/e) is a really neat model. The head is a bit weird, she looks man-elfish but the rest of the model looks feminine. Maybe from a different angle or with slightly different colors (or maybe break down for some GS hair too, if it bothers me). May just be the aesthetic they're aiming for with the Aesterians which might not be a bad thing.

 sukura636 wrote:
Hi there.

Pathfinder Dave wading in after a lifetime of lurking. Sometimes you guys have valid point, and sometimes it seems misinformation and speculation can be the worst enemy.

I'd like to add my take on the little tooling debate. Moving tooling to the UK is not a definite guarantee of success, nor is moving it in house.

Additionally, Mantic are being very candid about their successes and failures in plastic tooling - we often don't hear about this form other companies, so that it too several attempts to get a sprue right is not a bad thing. I've heard the same of renedra and GW - multiple attempts to correct errors. In fact, if anything its shows a determination to push the quality as high as they can get it. Like people have said, they are looking now more into getting results rather than deadlines.

Hopefully that's enough.

I would just like to add that moving it into the U.K means they can control quality better as well as hitting deadlines (no boat) they wouldn't have to fly around the world when there is a problem they just need to pop down the road which means they can visit more often as well to take photos or to check on progres as well as no neee to keep an employee in a foreign country. My experience with the Chinese (in engineering) is that most of the time they produce gak, if you want cheap parts with no tight tolerances then you go to china, you want a quality part and able to hold tight tolerances then you don't send it to the Chinese.

 sukura636 wrote:


Additionally, Mantic are being very candid about their successes and failures in plastic tooling - we often don't hear about this form other companies, so that it too several attempts to get a sprue right is not a bad thing. I've heard the same of renedra and GW - multiple attempts to correct errors. In fact, if anything its shows a determination to push the quality as high as they can get it. Like people have said, they are looking now more into getting results rather than deadlines.

Hopefully that's enough.

I don't think Mantic are being candid at all. I have 60 Men at Arms here that say otherwise. If Mantic had been candid, I would have known to avoid them.

And despite the update, we still don't know who at Mantic made the decision to greenlight the Men at Arms or why, how they ended up looking so bad, and what steps Mantic is taking to avoid the issue in the first place.

And, no, the update didn't provide that information. It just gave us the same "that won't happen again" message as last time. The problem is, Mantic is a company that releases models like the Men at Arms, the Drakon riders, the Basilean sisters, the Basilean sisters on cat-horses, the Trolls (dear GOD the Trolls!), the manscaped werewolves, the Twilight Kin assassin, the goblins, the half-cheeked fantasy warpath sprues, the Veermyn, and many more. There is a serious problem with art direction and quality assurance at Mantic, and telling us that the same people who accepted all those terrible products for sale are now being extra careful to make sure the Deadzone minis will be good? ... Please tell me you can understand why that's not convincing.

To use a bad analogy, if your interior decorator is colorblind you can't just tell him to look harder to make the colors complementary.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:


I know that you and others may not see it this way but crowdfunding is a form of temporary incorporation. Backers don't truly have any ownership in your company or much recourse if you do something dirty like, I don't know, send us poor quality merchandise, merchandise that is radically different from what was previously presented/advertised, merchandise of a different material than promised, etc. What we can do is talk. Communicate. Question and yes even badger until we get answers. It wouldn't be this way if we were dealt with above board but since Mantic seems dead-set on treating us as faceless wallets, we have no recourse until you, as a company, remember that with faces come voices and in this industry word of mouth means a great deal.

I know, I know, we'll get a gloriously huge update sometime "soon" just like we were to get a big update "next week" when the Finance Manager came back from China with a box and some scenery....two weeks ago. Then everybody ran off to Germany or parts unknown which apparently had no internet service to post the big update. That's the problem here. So far Mantic's been big on ideas and short on follow-through and I, and I'm sure everyone else here, would love that to change. For crying out loud, you know you've screwed up when Scarlet Squig who has been one of Mantic's biggest supporters and defenders on this site starts throwing in with the nay-sayers.

Someone needs to read this post to Ronnie.