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Civil War. You have an amazing selection of minis for the Eisenkern. Give people a really great game to use them in and people will buy more and paint more and this will allow you to make more. An open game system/setting doesn't make sense because among the other small miniatures producers your range far eclipses any of them. Run with it. Small skirmish rules are not a good fit for your models. Big, heavy metal combat calls. Pick up the phone and layeth the smacketh down.

game rules asap please. it's been hard to get people interested without a rules set, even with the spectacular models.

If you make a Wargame system that does everything, there are going to be aspects that aren't done as well as you might like.

Especially when you need the system to be able to cover everything from Cavemen throwing rocks all the way up to Giant Robots firing off Thermo-Lances.

Personally I would prefer a system that knows what it is, what it wants to do and how to do it rather than one that tries to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.
If my game has awesome infantry, sweet cars and giant mechs, I want awesome rules that are related to those aspects and tuned for great and sensible interactions.

If you want a single rule set to use all your models with, awesome for you. I honestly hope you are able to find it one day. But it would have to be darn incredible for me to prefer it over a solid and specifically tailored system that works with only its own units in mind.

In Dreamforge's position I would look at what I want to make out of the universe, and focus on those aspects if/when a ruleset is created.

Someone up the thread said the Dreamforge IP is not that exciting. Well considering that all we really have is a few awesome kits I think that is a bit harsh. Especially when the awesome kits ARE the IP.
The kit's designs reflect the world-building and the universe they inhabit and I think they are interesting as heck. But you are often judged by the company you keep so a solid and interesting opposing force would be where I would like to see the next direction head into.

 Vain wrote:
If you make a Wargame system that does everything, there are going to be aspects that aren't done as well as you might like.

Especially when you need the system to be able to cover everything from Cavemen throwing rocks all the way up to Giant Robots firing off Thermo-Lances.

Personally I would prefer a system that knows what it is, what it wants to do and how to do it rather than one that tries to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.
If my game has awesome infantry, sweet cars and giant mechs, I want awesome rules that are related to those aspects and tuned for great and sensible interactions.

If you want a single rule set to use all your models with, awesome for you. I honestly hope you are able to find it one day. But it would have to be darn incredible for me to prefer it over a solid and specifically tailored system that works with only its own units in mind.

In Dreamforge's position I would look at what I want to make out of the universe, and focus on those aspects if/when a ruleset is created.

Someone up the thread said the Dreamforge IP is not that exciting. Well considering that all we really have is a few awesome kits I think that is a bit harsh. Especially when the awesome kits ARE the IP.
The kit's designs reflect the world-building and the universe they inhabit and I think they are interesting as heck. But you are often judged by the company you keep so a solid and interesting opposing force would be where I would like to see the next direction head into.

That's the thing.. I already found basically this in 15mm. As was implied, you can basically double the ranges/distances and be good. Your assumption that it has to "fail" at something and can't be "master" of anything is kinda funny. Systems like 40k or Infinity aren't the master of anything either. I've never heard anyone say that Warmahordes didn't have failings or that Deadzone, Mercs, Warlord, or Warzone were airtight systems.
At this stage they have various power level infantry, APCs, and giant robots. There is very little they can do to make that into a balanced game by itself. Either way, there's no need for snark. This is just a discussion and people tossing around ideas. There's no need for anyone to shoot down those ideas.

 MLaw wrote:
That's the thing.. I already found basically this in 15mm. As was implied, you can basically double the ranges/distances and be good. Your assumption that it has to "fail" at something and can't be "master" of anything is kinda funny. Systems like 40k or Infinity aren't the master of anything either. I've never heard anyone say that Warmahordes didn't have failings or that Deadzone, Mercs, Warlord, or Warzone were airtight systems.
At this stage they have various power level infantry, APCs, and giant robots. There is very little they can do to make that into a balanced game by itself. Either way, there's no need for snark. This is just a discussion and people tossing around ideas. There's no need for anyone to shoot down those ideas.

...um yeah. that was the thing I was doing. Tossing out the idea that I support the most. Just because I don't agree with you or support what you like doesn't mean I am just shooting things down. I am just promoting what I would like to see from the Dreamforge of the future. Namely a line of miniatures that combines with a tight rule-set geared towards it's own miniatures and not sacrificing an inch to accommodate aspects from other games as I believe it would mean a weaker game for Dreamforge.

Also, not sure where you read the 'snark' from in my message, but I didn't intentionally include any. From my point of view it isn't a case of something being perfect or failing, what I am trying to say when I want a well made knife, I am going to look for a knife that is well made and suits my needs, not a Swiss army knife.
The Swiss army knife has a whole bunch of extra features but it is due to these extra features that their knife aspects can often be lacking when compared to a single purpose tool.
If I need/want a Swiss army knife, well that is a whole different case. But in this analogy, I do not want one.

Partnership game.

There is a lot of talent out there, a lot of great kits. I think Dreamforge is near the top, if not the top, but I still find myself reaching back to GW.

Why?

I'm in New Delhi.



Check out the play locator map. See that one little dot between Shanghai/Hong Kong and (what I assume to be) some servicemen in the Mid East.

That's me.

Yet I found 2 other 40k players here.

& a whole group when I was in Beijing.

Models are nice, I buy models I like, I put them in a box and they sit there. For 12 years or more.

I think I have enough Reaper Minis to anchor a battleship.


(now celebrating 2 years on the painting table)

I love your APC, even more than the Leviathan that's what got me to back the Kickstarter. I have 3 of them. In boxes.


(I love this model like a second cousin)

But models I can actually use in a game? They go right on the painting table.


(I hate this model like a skin rash. I have like 10 of them.)

And I don't buy one of them. I buy like 10, or 100.

So I really think the many, many great small companies out there NEED to come together and offer a game.

Keep the fluff simple - The Game Masters of the Universe kidnap warriors across space and time and dimensions to fight.

Have a basic engine, let each company produce codex-type rules for their own models (though this would NEED a strong editor to tone down codex creep and snowflake rules).

IMHO that is the only way Dreamforge, Anvil, Vic, etc, etc, can escape the 'counts as' trap.

Failing that, embrace it.

Make a sprue for the female tank hunters that makes them compatable with Battle Sisters (new heads, jump packs, chain saws, flame throwers).

Because it will be hard to make money any other way.

There we just took the minis we like and the rules we like and play the games.
It is no problem to use different rules for different scenarios. A large scale Napoelonic game will use different rules than the smaller scale game. You have 1 rulebook for army sized battles, 1 for company size and 1 for skirmish games.

So developing a specific ruleset for your own models is not the best idea, but neither is a generic ruleset for all.

You will never get all players to use the same rules because they prefer different things.
So having several rulebooks which can all use the same models will work best to sell them.
From the point on were models are bound to one specific ruleset, people will not buy them if they don't like the rules.


First you need to know which size you want.
Working together with Anvil and add your Eisenkern to their Skirmish game and therefore add their miniatures to company size game of your own (or work together with Mantic to get into Warpath) will be the best option.


The next is that there is no need for a complete new system because there are already too much.
Taking an existing independent one and modify it to your needs or get them to write army lists which fit your models.

For example alternative 40k rules like, 1page40k, In the Emperor's Names, Inferno, will do the job.

There is also a 2nd edition of Starship Troopers out there (SSTpK, community based) with additional army list which would fit perfect for Eisenkern and Leviathans of different size.

So a community based Living Rulebook supported by different manufactures (like Blood Bowl) will do the best job.

I guess copy the horus heresy idea would be good, don't mean the whole primarch stuff but that Iron kore is in a civil war so you do not need the shadokesh in the beginning, then when the aliens attack add the shadokesh as an supplement.

To be honest, I would also prefer a games system that combines several of the offerings out there on the market for models. There's auite a few great models about, I have a lot of them stashed in boxed left and right but never use them simply because I have no time/inclination to learn several systems which to use them with. One more general system for several manufacturers would be more of an incentive. Not only would it mean the models I have would get used, it would also be an excuse to maybe branch out into other model lines that might be interesting for the game. Now I don't because the boxes of shame are already overflowing. Not being painted simply since I don't use them in their respective game rahter than anything else.

A civil war game would be a good solution if you want to stay independent from other parties. Probably the best solution if you want to go that way but for me personally it would be a case of "Yet another game, I'll skip" and that's from someone who actually has the models stashed in boxes somewhere.

In my opinion getting this thing rolling should follow the same rules as designing the perfect brassiere: Enhance the Positive, Suppress the Negative, and Fake the Nonexistent.


The largest thing (both literally and metaphorically) that Dreamforge has going for it are the Leviathans. This is your signature. A simple add-on kit in either plastic or resin would diversify a product that is all ready extremely customizable. This would add a lot of variety with minimal effort.

Right now your Negatives and Nonexistents are the same things: No Rules, No opposing force. The way I see it you have three options: continue being a great model company that provides counts-as for other games, Bite the bullet and make this a full gaming system, or leave the door open for other people to counts-as to your game.

While continuing to be a "counts as" company is easiest, it also leaves you the least chance to grow. You will never be your own thing.

Biting the bullet and making your own world would be a HUGE financial risk, if it is even possible at all. I'd truly love to see a 6-faction Iron Core universe, but even at full-steam with endless money that is still a decade away.

In the end, I'd say make your rules and add-on kits to your Leviathans. Do the civil-war thing if you must. Throw it out fast and cheap to get people playing. Then add in the Shadowkesh when the time is right. The whole time leave the rules generic enough so that another company's "large, slow tank with sponsons" could easily fill the rules you have, and the models you lack.

Heck, if people all ready have some models ready to go from another system they may readily make the jump just to check things out. Then they start picking up a kit or two, then they jump full-in. I'd love to see GW models used simply as proxies to a funner game.

If you go the Civil War route, I think resin upgrade packs are the way to go. If you could bundle in with a basic set a House X or Army of Y upgrade pack that has heads, maybe a couple of extra weapons, the odd shoulder pad with some unique markings ect then distinct factions become a lot easier to introduce. Resin casting is much cheaper to start up than plastic, much faster, and will work with your 3d design method; just 3d print a test piece, clean it up, use that to create a mould and Bob's your uncle. Obviously there will be trial and error involved, but it might be worth contacting someone like Anvil or Vic, not for them to produce stuff but simply to get an idea of the process and logistics of resin casting.

Wasn't there a set of Ironcore rules in development, or am I misremembering things? If you want to go down the full game route then as a customer all I can say is get some kind of beta game done as a free pdf for the near future and release the Shadokesh with the full game when its commercially viable for you.

I can only echo the sentiments of a lot of other people in this thread however that there are lots of nice miniature ranges on the market at the moment, and it really would be good to see a well done non-gw model(must use these models with these rules, death to fanworks) wargame that can effortlessly support the different ranges.

Kings of War seems capable of doing it in Fantasy, Gruntz is designed to do it for 15mm. I don't really know what has the potential to go down that route for 28mm sci-fi . Gates of Antares has the kind of fluff that could fit lots of high-tech isolated human cultures in, but I haven't seen much in the way of modular/army list generic design coming from that game yet. Warpath/Firefight is still in way too early days yet to see what that will become but if it goes down the Kings of War route could easily become generic/subgame of choice if it gets the GW-faction compatible armylist done for that in a timely fashion.

 RiTides wrote:
I think the issue for consumers is, there's not critical mass for any of these games. Trollforged talks about one, Anvil, Dreamforge... dang those lines (plus Victoria Miniatures) could look good facing off!

Cheers for even considering it Mark appreciate that even though I know it's a long shot and would take a lot of folks being willing, along with a good central rules writer to have a chance of happening. But again, I'd totally Kickstart such a project

You mean like Warspike and Sciror (more discussions on the latter here). It would be interesting to see how such an open system would work, create a semi-unified setting (basically a sand box kinda thing) with a semi-unified set up rules (kind of reminds me of the whole =I=Munda/Inquisimunda/INQ28 movement) and you can basically combine forces. Rather than forcing players to stick to your own product, and thus having to compete against all other small companies (and the big boys), you can all get together.

Y'know who might be able to pull this off, Osprey.

They're doing several games with no official models and the only one I know of that has models (Frostgrave) has been pretty clear about the 'use anything' approach.

They're one of the few companies that have the reach to get rules out into shops.

I know they have a sci-fi game coming, if I were a small miniatures maker I'd look into using their engine and publishing a supplement set in my own universe.

Imagine a game system that combines two things. The background rationales and army creation system from something like Vor and the OGL compatibility of D&D 3.5. So someone would need to release a ruleset for their own game first that had army creation rules and a background that gave a rationale for these other armies to fit in then actively support other model manufacturers providing compatible source books. I can't think of a universal system that was a good system itself (models, rules, rationale, etc) since FASA closed and took Vor down with it and the OGL hadn't really taken off by then.

The whole combining of miniatures also kinda reminds me of the old Rogue Trader days in which people made vehicles using all sorts of modelling kits.

But yeah, this sort of thing could also lead to collaborating more with bits companies, thing of parties like Puppets War, Kromlech, Max Mini, etc. Could be pretty epic!

Osprey is a great idea, Kid Kyoto - Their Frostgrave rules have really had a wide reach!

And resin add-on kits for Levisthans would make me sooo happy. Alternate heads, and maybe smokestacks / capacitor coolers, and you've got a whole different faction for the "civil war"!

Hopefully the response here shows that for either (or both!) of those routes, you've got people on Dakka interested and likely the wider wargaming market too - online initially but if it picks up steam, in shops. Guildball has been making some great strides at actually getting out and being played, and it's because the rules are tight and good.

Looking forward to seeing you take the next step

Or as a rediculous thought CMoN.

Okay here me out on this one.

1. They have been releasing a bunch of killer games- Zombicide, Blood Rage, possibly B-seiged and the Others (I have no clue on rum and bones or their other games).
2. They have a great Kickstarter presence, people back it just because they are CMoN (I had a problem with them for years because their previous company screwed me out of $100 years ago)
3. They have game designers (Eric Lange seems to be one of the better designers out there and works for them)
4. I think they would love to have a multi part plastic wargame to take on GW and branch out of the board game industry.
5. They carry other ranges like Dark Age and Wrath of Kings so supporting other lines is something they have experience with.
6. If you could 3D sculpt their xenoshyft aliens $$$$$
7. Since the flop of Sedition Wars I think they may be looking for a new route into the wargaming environment
8. Eisenkern fighting off a zombie plague Hello Zombicide figures a new use

Just an Idea, but since people have thought that your deigns would kill GW for years, maybe teaming with one of the bigger names would actually help accomplish this

Edit: And whoever you team with I have one word:


Sorry another Edit: If you go with Mantic I'll never buy another item from you again

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Rather than one unified rule set, why not a series of Marvel comics anyone-can-cameo rulesets? This is what Mantic did with KoW. If you write a rule set that has a wink wink entry for Victoria's minis and Anvil's minis and Medge's minis (stormtroopers vs droids) in exchange for them including an obvious Eisenkern analog in their rules, then consumers can buy into a rule set they like, an army they like, and have plenty of variety in their opponents, fluff, whatever.

The problem is that there is so much more variety in how Sci Fi games operate. KoW can handle proxies from nearly any Fantasy line, as basically every fantasy line is based on Tolkien in some fashion. An Ogre is an Ogre, no matter if he's a hungry fat dude, a buff dude who skips leg day, or a bugbear.

If you go the civil war route, once you get some rules ironed out, you could probably put together a starter bundle together or a boxed game starter set with a couple squads vs a couple squads of valkir. Folks can buy it as a 2 player/ 2 faction starter set, or use all the models to start their own army.

Kinda like Betrayal at Calth?

 Necros wrote:
If you go the civil war route, once you get some rules ironed out, you could probably put together a starter bundle together or a boxed game starter set with a couple squads vs a couple squads of valkir. Folks can buy it as a 2 player/ 2 faction starter set, or use all the models to start their own army.

Kinda like Betrayal at Calth?

1 of each Leviathan (1 for each faction)
Valkir on one side and regular troopers on the other side
2 Keilerkopfs (1 each side)or both on one side and the Stug (if ready on the other)

I'd even be willing to say package the deal with an Ada figure (I was a kickstarter backer and think this should be acceptable, plus he already has the molds) Not only would it be two large armies to fight each other, it would be one huge army for when a second faction comes along.

 Theophony wrote:

 Necros wrote:
If you go the civil war route, once you get some rules ironed out, you could probably put together a starter bundle together or a boxed game starter set with a couple squads vs a couple squads of valkir. Folks can buy it as a 2 player/ 2 faction starter set, or use all the models to start their own army.

Kinda like Betrayal at Calth?

1 of each Leviathan (1 for each faction)
Valkir on one side and regular troopers on the other side
2 Keilerkopfs (1 each side)or both on one side and the Stug (if ready on the other)

I'd even be willing to say package the deal with an Ada figure (I was a kickstarter backer and think this should be acceptable, plus he already has the molds) Not only would it be two large armies to fight each other, it would be one huge army for when a second faction comes along.

While that sounds on paper to be a nice set, you do realize the MSRP of the models in such a set would be ~$460? And if we assume the DFG sale prices offered are indeed "as low as they can go" for a retail sale (since they make less on each unit put into the channel) you're still looking at north of $350? That's not really starter set range unless you're Kingdom Death. Even A leviathan + keilerkopf is going to push it way too high for a gateway product and unlike GW there's really no way to subsidize it with income from other sources as a loss-leader. That price point would be a huge barrier to entry, and really only of interest to die-hard fans (who probably own all of that anyway). You also have the other side of the sword that while Mark's kits are amazing, with the vehicles especially they're far more complex than "starter" models. Immensely satisfying to build, but much more involved if you're not after that aspect of the hobby and could frustrate someone who looked and said "Star World Wars 2? Sure!"

5 Val'kir + hover StuG vs. 10 Stormtroopers + keilerkopf MIGHT work, but it still feels like it's going to be more expensive than BaC which is only viewed as "a good deal" in comparison to the price of Forgeworld and does include more than just the models. Without the vehicles I'm not sure it's particularly flashy enough to garner sales, but with the vehicles as expensive as they are I'm not sure there's a good way to bundle things. I can see 5 Val'kir + 20 Stormtroopers + vehicle working price-wise (if we presume the StuG is no more expensive than the Keilerkopf; that could go either way), but is that dynamic enough to actually have any fun with to encourage people to buy more stuff?

Hard to say without knowing the rules. Aaaaand we're back in the loop it appears...

Yeah, the Leviathan brawl is more feasible with the 15mm scale Leviathan model... dang I would love to have an excuse for a half dozen or more of those running around

Hmm, for some reason I find the 15mm scale model a lot nicer amongst 28mm infantry, rather than the big Leviathan. But maybe that's just me...

I prefer the 28mm Leviathan for it's center-piece appeal and my love of big-stompy robots, but the 15mm makes a much better gaming piece because it's not so big.

Another way forward in a partnership could be that 15mm range in a "Adeptus Titanicus Remix" sort of thing. Resin/metal vehicles + existing Leviathans + a 3rd party infantry range (since you can be a bit fuzzier on the details and I think one had already been located that was passable as Eisenkern already). What I'm dubious of is the idea that a "reverse Epic" would work; 40k at the time Epic was out served as a push for people towards the mass-battle game in Epic where they wanted these huge battles but I don't think a mass-battle game would push people to the larger 28mm scale with smaller battles. It just doesn't seem to be the way people work, but I could be wrong.

Product-wise it seems to be kind of a dead-end to me, but might be worth batting about for a bit to be sure.

I don't think it's fair to task Dreamforge with putting the bell on the cat.

Making rules is a monumental task with little return for a miniatures company. Best for Adam to find an existing ruleset that captures the basic ethos, and partner with them for an "Ironcore edition".

Steve Jackson used to do this for GURPS, but that was for things that had strong existing non-gaming IP that SJG could convert into GURPS.

Osprey would be a good choice, as KK notes. DFG's kits are very comparable in quality to the scale models that Osprey supports, so this has the best potential for a barebones ruleset. The problem here will be a lack of background material for Osprey to incorporate into their rules (Osprey has a wealth of historical material available for their vast range of existing product).

I would almost say rebranding the 15mm Leviathan as 28mm, and making the big ones 54mm would be a good idea.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
I have spent some time Victoria when she was up with visiting Justin from Secret Weapon, on her way around doing the convention circuit, If I recall we briefly looked at but both dismissed it due to scale differences. The same could be said for a few others I have talked to. I also speak with one of the founders of (MEdge) from time to time just catching up and sharing stories but they have a very specific goal/look for their product that precluded any easy integration.

A joint line would be possible but IMO you need to start it from scratch with a preconceived scale/proportions if they are to play well together. I personally do not have an issue as long as they are close but that is just me....

As to paying a game designer to craft a universal system, I think that's workable, even if you do not join the universe, just having a good system that is more open source (more or less) may have appeal to the market.



(Edit) just threw the question of a more open game system that can support multiple indi mini makers, to a game designer I know to see if they feel it has traction.

Partner with FFG to make the rules and be a distributor? Just throwing the idea out there because I know that they have their own issues but they do have good-great writers who could flesh out your fluff and multiple, fairly generic rules that could be the bones for a decent ruleset.









Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:

Sorry another Edit: If you go with Mantic I'll never buy another item from you again

This. Ugh, I can't stand Mantic.

 agnosto wrote:
Partner with FFG to make the rules and be a distributor?

There are easier and less painful ways for Mark to get fethed.

If he wants to go that route, he should first talk to Richard Borg, and hear his experience having FFG take over BattleLore.

Feth FFG.

 Malika2 wrote:
Hmm, for some reason I find the 15mm scale model a lot nicer amongst 28mm infantry, rather than the big Leviathan. But maybe that's just me...

It's not just you. The 15mm model is just right.