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 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I would almost say rebranding the 15mm Leviathan as 28mm, and making the big ones 54mm would be a good idea.

I could be onboard with this, too! There's no cockpit, and nothing that says the currently labeled "15mm" mechs couldn't be used for "28mm"... other than the label itself

I concur about the 15mm mechs.. that will also add a lot more flexibility for army building and make them much more affordable, while having a "collectors" version for the big models.

I am really nervous about this price increase. DreamForge were one of the only reasonably priced awesome mini companies out there. If they have to bring prices up to near what others are, i might just jump right out of my ability to pay, and that would be a damn shame.

-C6

 catharsix wrote:
I am really nervous about this price increase. DreamForge were one of the only reasonably priced awesome mini companies out there. If they have to bring prices up to near what others are, i might just jump right out of my ability to pay, and that would be a damn shame.

-C6

SO buy now to avoid the increase

IMO, the problem with 15mm, is that, while a superior gaming scale, 90% of the DFG product (100% of the infantry) is 28mm.

Now, had this been up for discussion before KS, it would have been ideal to do DFG in 15mm, with conversion rules from Flames of War. But that boat has sailed.

 Theophony wrote:

 catharsix wrote:
I am really nervous about this price increase. DreamForge were one of the only reasonably priced awesome mini companies out there. If they have to bring prices up to near what others are, i might just jump right out of my ability to pay, and that would be a damn shame.

-C6

SO buy now to avoid the increase

Flawed logic? They must be competitive priced, to have an market as they have no rules. PP and GW are already overpriced, if warlord starts to price themselves in a similar fashion, there are always new players popping up on the market to throw cash at.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, the problem with 15mm, is that, while a superior gaming scale, 90% of the DFG product (100% of the infantry) is 28mm.

Now, had this been up for discussion before KS, it would have been ideal to do DFG in 15mm, with conversion rules from Flames of War. But that boat has sailed.

The "15MM" Leviathan can work at "28MM" scale though, I think is the point?

Maybe?

Either way, I'd love to see a game system to go along with all of these great looking miniatures - but I'd also really like to see that 'opposing force' too...

 Alpharius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, the problem with 15mm, is that, while a superior gaming scale, 90% of the DFG product (100% of the infantry) is 28mm.

Now, had this been up for discussion before KS, it would have been ideal to do DFG in 15mm, with conversion rules from Flames of War. But that boat has sailed.

The "15MM" Leviathan can work at "28MM" scale though, I think is the point?

Maybe?

Either way, I'd love to see a game system to go along with all of these great looking miniatures - but I'd also really like to see that 'opposing force' too...

That was my take away. The 15mm Leviathans would work with the 28mm infantry, making the Leviathans more like big suits of power armor than `Mechs.

Compared to how GW prices their Titan class models, the basic Leviathan is *very* fairly priced.

The prices could ruin the range for me, too. I've got plenty of Eisenkern already, as well as many other sci fi minis, so the 'need' for new minis is already diminished. With more competition from Mantic and MEdge, a price rise could tip the entire range into "do not buy" range for me. I already decided against the Keilerkopf because it was just too expensive for a vehicle that wasn't sci fi enough, especially once I binged on DUST's range of Star Wars Nazi walkers. I'd love some Shadokesh, but there is a limit to how much I would pay per figure for them.



Speaking of Warlord, I feel like their prices are inflated beyond reason. The Terminator Genisys minis were priced like premium figures, but their quality was EM4 level at best. Bolt Action minis seem expensive for plastics, and they're not even good minis. WGF had better WW2 minis for better prices, so Warlord came along and fethed them over. I kinda hate Warlord.

I think developing a generic sci-fi game system absent of anything unique about the Iron Core setting would be a mistake. I've stuck with GW for all these years almost exclusively because of the fluff and in spite of the crunch. Great rules but a bland setting holds no interest for me.

Great to see visible activity from Mark at last.

My opinions if Mark's still listening:

1. Game first or More Minis First - I definitely want some rules for the minis that are out now. If that means Eisenkern civil war for the next year or more, that's something I can live with. Also, I don't need a physical paper publication. A PDF at a reasonable price distributed through Wargames Vault is good enough for me.

2. How to develop a rules set? My vote is to license an existing set of generic rules or hire them to commission an iron core skin with their basic mechanics. Osprey, Ambush Alley, AD Publishing, Ganesha Games, Two Hour Wargames all have decent core mechanics that could certainly be adapted to fit the Iron Core universe. Having played lots of different systems over the years, solid core mechanics don't need to re-create the wheel to be interesting. If the end result gives some modest tactical depth and preserves enough balance to be fun, who cares if it's original or not.

I'd also like to echo the idea of Eisenkern resin customization packs if the game goes down the civil war route. Head, chest plates and shoulder pad swaps can go a long way to giving the different houses more character.

Although Mark didn't ask, and it seems sacrilegious to say it, I am not anxious to see Leviathan's in the 28mm version of whatever rules eventually come out. Having played 40K Apocalypse with titans and even a few games of Battletech at 28mm scale, big robots on a 6' table come off as feeling either claustrophobic or cartoony. I love my Leviathan and it makes a great display piece, but I think they should appear at the 15mm end of things.


Anyhow best of luck and please keep us posted. I think it was mentioned a few pages back, but deffinately consider sending out announcements through kickstarter. I know the campaign is long concluded, but it's still a good way to reach folks that don't spend a lot of time combing through the various forums and rumor sites.

My thoughts:

1)Mark, it doesn't seem like your heart/passion lies with the rules. My impression is that you are a modeler/kit builder first and foremost. Don't spend your time or energy doing something you aren't passionate about (and no offense, but likely not very good at, compared to your talent for making cool kits. See "comparative advantage" from Econ 101)
2) To echo what many others have said: Make a strategic partnership to get a set of game rules for your figures. Find somebody that is passionate and knowledgeable. You likely have tons of willing play-testers.
3) There is no shame in being a "counts as" producer for a while longer (although you have made many strange choices if this was your intent).
4)Good quality, break out rules are likely years and a couple of editions away.
5) Decent rules could be had in a few months to open up to play-testers, and help launch the Shadowkesh when they arrive (with the right rules partner).

One more idea, speaking of comparative advantage...

Have you looked at doing something bigger than the Leviathans in plastic?

The old Black Widow



or even a heavily revised version of the Models We Do Not Speak Of.

Doing a gothic war mech in plastic is something no one else has done and could easily be a major kick starter.

As I see other companies stumble on their Kickstarters I have more and more respect for Dreamforge's accomplishment. It's one of the few companies I would still be willing to throw serious money at.

The Black Widow would make for a nice not-Defiler. Also, the BW turret on a Panzer or FlugPanzer chassis would be cool, too!

There's also a lighter Mech that Mark had on the Mortis box cover.

Adeptus Titanicus in 28mm is cool, which is why GW is hellbent on turning 40k into AT28.

Same, I'm glad to have backed DFG's KS.

I think most of us feel the same, especially in hindsight seeing all he accompanied with limited resources, and how excellent the final products were. I think most wargamers who know of Dreamforge would back their next campaign, if Mark decides to Kickstart it. Just look at the response here from just a few posts from Mark

There was also talk of terrain, tall buildings and such.

I'm not sure it would do anything Pegasus and GW don't already do, but wiht quality and style it could be competitive and give DF a nice shot in the arm since it doesn't require anything like rules.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
There was also talk of terrain, tall buildings and such.

I'm not sure it would do anything Pegasus and GW don't already do, but wiht quality and style it could be competitive and give DF a nice shot in the arm since it doesn't require anything like rules.

I've heard that Mantic isn't very pleased with the sales volume of their terrain, so while I'm sure Mark could make something awesome, I don't think terrain would drive sales like more awesome kits + a nice set of rules to play with them.

Terrain is a tricky thing, most would invest in armies and kinda hope that the 'other' will deliver some awesome terrain. Makes me wonder what the best business model for terrain would be. Maybe the Maelstrom's Edge approach of a 'bits sprue' is not that crazy...

There are lots of guys doing terrain, but I can't see giant terrain kits selling very well. The price tag would be enormous, and sales would be tough. If anything, make a bitz sprue to decorate shoeboxes...

But really, even if the building was awesome, for the same $100, I want another Leviathan, not a plastic shoebox.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Y'know who might be able to pull this off, Osprey.

They're doing several games with no official models and the only one I know of that has models (Frostgrave) has been pretty clear about the 'use anything' approach.

They're one of the few companies that have the reach to get rules out into shops.

I know they have a sci-fi game coming, if I were a small miniatures maker I'd look into using their engine and publishing a supplement set in my own universe.

Osprey in collaboration with Ambush Alley Games made a near modern space colony wargame for 15mm and 28mm scale games, and a supplement, Tomorrow's War and By Dagger and Talon (Included alien rules), They did in their forward mention they might at some time make a game like 40k they labeled as space fantasy. The game is adaptable to any minis you have, vehicle rules, as well, they include a little background fluff for a "setting" but also state that you and your game group can make up any setting and background desired.

Tricky part is it does not use a point system, just asks you attempt to be "sensible" and make a few squads and use them.




By Dagger or Talon

 shasolenzabi wrote:
Trricky part is it does not use a point system, just asks you attempt to be "sensible" and make a few squads and use them.

No point system is an automatic fail.

 bbb wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
Trricky part is it does not use a point system, just asks you attempt to be "sensible" and make a few squads and use them.

No point system is an automatic fail.

Yeah, I seem to remember this being an issue with some high profile game recently. Anyone know what I'm talking about? I believe it resulted in people sensibly burning their minis and sensibly gakking up threads barely related to said game for months. It was pretty tricky.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 bbb wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
Trricky part is it does not use a point system, just asks you attempt to be "sensible" and make a few squads and use them.

No point system is an automatic fail.

Yeah, I seem to remember this being an issue with some high profile game recently. Anyone know what I'm talking about? I believe it resulted in people sensibly burning their minis and sensibly gakking up threads barely related to said game for months. It was pretty tricky.

Shhhh. you mustn't say its name.

It wasn't as bad as Chop Poker, but when looking for a game a lot of gamers reacted as if you suggested Chop Poker.

I'm still not getting this whole obsession with sticking to a point system. I'm not saying that it should always be demolished, but I must say I enjoy both systems.

Points are a means to ensure a balanced game between opponents without going through tons of mental gymnastics/negotiations to ensure that each side has a reasonable chance of winning. It's short-hand and it allows for more games to be played and reduces the chance of some sort of referee or inexperience bias causing problems.

If you have a regular group of people who always meet and generally think the same way about things, points systems are not needed. If you face a variety of opponents, possibly unknown to you at the time, then points are nigh-mandatory. Your normal experience with the hobby will somewhat dictate which is workable, but among strangers points will win every single time and thus it's preferred for any game seeking organized play across a broad area.

 Krinsath wrote:
Points are a means to ensure a balanced game between opponents without going through tons of mental gymnastics/negotiations to ensure that each side has a reasonable chance of winning. It's short-hand and it allows for more games to be played and reduces the chance of some sort of referee or inexperience bias causing problems.

If you have a regular group of people who always meet and generally think the same way about things, points systems are not needed. If you face a variety of opponents, possibly unknown to you at the time, then points are nigh-mandatory. Your normal experience with the hobby will somewhat dictate which is workable, but among strangers points will win every single time and thus it's preferred for any game seeking organized play across a broad area.

Like Kid_Kyoto mentioned earlier, in his adventures around the world he has been able to find 40k players. If there were no points values to balance games automatically (in theory), then he would not have been able to get a game as quickly.

 Krinsath wrote:
Points are a means to ensure a balanced game between opponents without going through tons of mental gymnastics/negotiations to ensure that each side has a reasonable chance of winning. It's short-hand and it allows for more games to be played and reduces the chance of some sort of referee or inexperience bias causing problems.

If you have a regular group of people who always meet and generally think the same way about things, points systems are not needed. If you face a variety of opponents, possibly unknown to you at the time, then points are nigh-mandatory. Your normal experience with the hobby will somewhat dictate which is workable, but among strangers points will win every single time and thus it's preferred for any game seeking organized play across a broad area.

I'll add that while no point system is perfect, a well-made one is close enough to ensure both parties involved have a reasonably good time without having to be 1st cousins who can read each others' minds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bbb wrote:

Spoiler:

 Krinsath wrote:
Points are a means to ensure a balanced game between opponents without going through tons of mental gymnastics/negotiations to ensure that each side has a reasonable chance of winning. It's short-hand and it allows for more games to be played and reduces the chance of some sort of referee or inexperience bias causing problems.

If you have a regular group of people who always meet and generally think the same way about things, points systems are not needed. If you face a variety of opponents, possibly unknown to you at the time, then points are nigh-mandatory. Your normal experience with the hobby will somewhat dictate which is workable, but among strangers points will win every single time and thus it's preferred for any game seeking organized play across a broad area.

Like Kid_Kyoto mentioned earlier, in his adventures around the world he has been able to find 40k players. If there were no points values to balance games automatically (in theory), then he would not have been able to get a game as quickly.

LoL. Truth! I would never have been able to get pick-up games in Japan and Korea where my command of the language stopped at ordering food and navigating public transportation. Nowhere near proficient enough to negotiate how many models to place on the table or some other esoteric means to determine how to forge a narrative.

TBH the no points aspect is different, but also, they assume you are gonna play it with established friends/game group, and the units are almost nearly similar as most modernized militaries are effectively the same except for training/morale/Leadership and support levels. and normal squads like IG types vs powered armor elites usually have more troops and the PA unit is quite small.