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Looks like his mouth wrote a cheque his wallet was not willing to cash.

For all the blather about art and artistic integrity all of poots decisons can be traced to his bottom line.

Fully expect all the completed models from the lantern festival paid for by this KS to appear in the next KS for 3x the price.

I will not be backing the next KS this one was that late I had got married and started a family by the time it even started to deliver. I then got gouged for additional postage due to poots costs being 3 years out of date.
Finally refund or not poots failed to complete this KS .

It seems to come down to -
Artistic integrity which causes delays or additonal costs to backer = Good

Artistic integrity which costs Poot's $,cash or reduces his potential future profits = Bad

This KS has shown me that poots is either incompetent or has the scruples of GW and as such I will not be risking money on an uncertain return at an uncertain time in the future.

The vitriol over this is a bit much. A full refund has been issued. We've already saved barrels of money over the retail price on everything else this KS produced.

To equate this to GW, to ascribe nefarious motives to this act, to declare anyone who didn't scream bloody murder over this as being part of a cult, is all a bit much.

I'm disappointed, yes. But I'm not going to be spiteful or vindictive over it. I'll evaluate the next project, see if it provides what I want at the price I want.

I think he tried his best and it didn't work out the way he wanted. He's pretty clearly proven to everyone that he cares about his vision. He did, after all, remain committed to this project over a 3-4 year period. There's nothing in his message that would make anyone reasonable infer that this was 100% about costs, but i have kids and i've watched enough Judge Judy and Jerry Springer to understand how unreasonable people can get about jsut about anything.

I'll definitely be onboard for the new campaign on the first day. But i'll make my final decision towards the end, when we have a better idea about what his new plan is.

Artistic merit aside, is there anyone who genuinely believes that Adam's decision to not deliver the Lantern Festival wasn't based primarily on money?



Edit: I'm genuinely interested.

I'm sure money was a consideration. On the other hand I'd much rather see more Kingdom Death stuff down the road than have it go under because Poots was forced to provide yet more plastic bits at a loss.

It would have been nice if he had made this decision years ago, but it's still hardly the worst Kickstarter experience many of us have had.

If he had provided an option for just buying the minis themselves, at slightly above cost and shipping, I would have gone for it. Instead, he has implied we will be paying a very high price for them later because he couldn't control the ballooning costs of the rules and he is unwilling to sell us the good stuff without a heaping helping of box ballast. It's the body horror equivalent of Star Wars Armada.

If this was about money, he would have found a way to put out a subpar product within budget. We've all seen lots of companies that do this. If he couldn't make the game itself meaningful (which also happens to lots of game designers), then why make it?

I'll be supporting the next Kickstarter.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Artistic merit aside, is there anyone who genuinely believes that Adam's decision to not deliver the Lantern Festival wasn't based primarily on money?



Edit: I'm genuinely interested.

Oh, money was certainly involved, no question. Whether it was the primary issue or not is uncertain.
But, something to consider: 5410 backers on KS (not including any that came in after). If even just half of them went for the Lantern Festival, that's about $121000 Poots just sent out in refunds. And about $10000 of that comes directly out of his pocket because it was taken away in Kickstarter fees. So, even just cancelling the Lantern Festival is costing Poots a chunk of money.

I feel if money was not involved he would not have made a shirt to try and sell back to us about canceling this expansion.

Evidently it is costing him less to refund people than it would have done to fulfill the orders, which is why he made the decision to refund people.

Adam Poots is a business man, operating a business.

He also has a small family to support.

Money is the primary consideration here, which is perfectly fine; my only issue is the fact that he has painted a very different picture to the backers. Why not just call a spade a spade?

People are also pointing out on the KS Thread that Update #93 has the Lantern Festival tooling as complete. So if it was not a price issue, one could wonder why not just sell us the miniatures separately. We will know in 3 weeks I suppose...

Posted this elsewhere, but my response, either way--

Wow. Totally deflated.

I would have been way happier with a less-ambitious expansion that changed the scope* than nothing.

The Watcher is a big letdown, and of anything to be a letdown it shouldn't have been the boss. I was stoked for a higher-level boss and some new options and a redeemed, harder/more exciting boss, and had saved aside completed campaigns for this.

I was also just excited to paint the model-- I thought it was the best of the big models, even beyond gameplay (and the other 4 were pretty exciting, too).

Then the card expansion:

This is the last outstanding part of our campaign. Although I admit I am mixed to classify it as such, since its all NEW development based on player feedback from the game and the expansions all being out in the wilds for some time. Ultimately making it more work, but better quality than it would have been. The price of the card pack will be our raw cost + shipping. We are not aiming to make a dime off of it.

I'm totally okay with this, except, really? "Open beta had feedback, so it's kinda' like a new thing, so shouldn't count as incomplete"? Just... feels like more excuses rather than just sticking to taking responsibility- "hey, I know I said I'd deliver now, but I was overambitious" or something.

Then there's the shirt:

We created tshirts to commemorate the cancellation of the Lantern Festival! If you would prefer Kingdom Death to keep your $45 and put it towards future developments, please feel free to pick up a shirt or 2!

really rubbed me the wrong way. Suggests that they're still going to launch the expansion in the future, and, while they're at it, here's some money to advertise them failing to deliver, which they had time to print because that's easy money and can pay towards development of that thing you bought but they didn't deliver. If it turns out that they've tracked everyone who bought it and there's something getting a discount, you can call me an alarmist or w/e whenever that comes out, but that was a really long wait for what turned out to be a refund.


Well. This update did a lot to harm my feelings towards the studio. I'll wait to see the KS, and maybe my enthusiasm will be back by then, but... eh. I don't know. I honestly didn't expect the day would come where I felt let down by the work ethic here, but it has. I'd been moving towards finishing a campaign and continuing another, but I might just let it sit in the box for a while.


* Dragon-style "here's a new timeline w/ new nemeses (scribe, hunters)"; sunstalker-style "here's just a new timeline and boss"; or, "here are 2 new variant nemeses and 1 variant boss- they're not built in a campaign, and don't get separate books, but here's some stuff", "here are some cool models that you don't even get rules for, and a variant boss," or, hell, even just some nice minis.

More then likely it was shipping, and distribution.

As much as I like a good box of hateraid, I have to give him a little space on this one. Yes, it looks like he didn't follow through, but in the expanse of the total project, and his ability- he hasn't done too badly.

I'm not going to throw candy at him and call it sweet, but he put together a pretty impressive project, kept people informed, was honest, and discussed the parameters of what he was doing at length and was above board the whole time- even after making over a million dollars to go forward with the expansive project.

We have seen numerous companies do worse with less talent, and more money. We have also seen D bags on Kickstarter take the money and run...

On the whole, I can't honestly fault his efforts. It might have been disappointing, but in the scheme of a Kickstarter- from going from zero to 100, he has done a pretty good job.
I'm personally happy with the effort, even if he didn't foresee the dicking he was going to get on shipping and handling. I give him credit for being honest, keeping information flow going, and product still being available post project.

Good job and good luck, Adam Poots. Great game, and an excellent start on a great game system.

Not the news I was hoping to read.

Honestly I know he is a business man but in that case why could he not just say" look I don't really want to sell you the main expansion that we promised and sold for $45 because I now know you mugs will pay $150+ in the next KS that happens to launch next week"

Really the thing that rubs me up the wrong way is that he has KS a product and had the tooling done with those funds, but is now most likely going to sell that completed product in his next KS.

The refund is ok but all that shows me is that he figures an $125000 outlay now for a $375000+ later is a good deal for him.

SeanDrake wrote:
Looks like his mouth wrote a cheque his wallet was not willing to cash.

For all the blather about art and artistic integrity all of poots decisons can be traced to his bottom line.

Fully expect all the completed models from the lantern festival paid for by this KS to appear in the next KS for 3x the price.

I will not be backing the next KS this one was that late I had got married and started a family by the time it even started to deliver. I then got gouged for additional postage due to poots costs being 3 years out of date.
Finally refund or not poots failed to complete this KS .

It seems to come down to -
Artistic integrity which causes delays or additonal costs to backer = Good

Artistic integrity which costs Poot's $,cash or reduces his potential future profits = Bad

This KS has shown me that poots is either incompetent or has the scruples of GW and as such I will not be risking money on an uncertain return at an uncertain time in the future.

That's a fething crock of gak. Adam subsidized KD:M with the sales of resins, in order to deliver a superior product that met his vision. He probably overran the budget (and subsidized it) to the tune of $250k. That's why we paid $90 for a $400 game. I bet it wasn't until a few months ago that he broke even on KD:M, where a CMoN KS would have netted a 5-10% profit.

Tell you what though, you can use your $45 Lantern Festival refund to buy my Robotech Tactics MAC-II Monster ($40) and $5 worth of Wave 2 Stretch Goals, and see what real incompetence and unscrupulous behavior looks like. C'mon, do it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Artistic merit aside, is there anyone who genuinely believes that Adam's decision to not deliver the Lantern Festival wasn't based primarily on money?

Me. I didn't back Lantern Festival because it didn't match the other major expansions. It was just a random grab bag of cool models, where the others created armor sets that you'd hunt and build. At some level, it should have been comparable to the Sunstalker expansion, with a new Boss and new objectives. But it just wasn't.

Now that isn't to say the models aren't nice - they are. And for people like Bob, who were only in it for the models, I get that.

But if you're looking for the models with the theme and the story, which is hat Adam's vision was, then one has to conclude that the Lantern Festival really missed the mark.

And if you just want to look at the money, again, compare with the Sunstalker Expansion: Sunstalker, 2 People of the Sun, and Armor set. Very comparable content, similar KS pricing. Adam didn't kill the Sunstalker for money reasons. Especially as he already tooled and popped the Lantern Festival. He could deliver them as a "naked" expansion, but it's not what he wants to do. Especially considering how Adam subsidized pretty much all of the other KS content.

My guess, and he pretty much laid it out, is that his vision for the Lantern Festival requires 2 additional Armor Sets (guessing Royal & Scribed) to make it "complete", with moves it from a $125 major expansion up to a $200 mega-expansion. Which is why he's looking to repackage it as an Epilogue set to bookend the KD:M core starter set. At least, that's what I'd do with it.

Yes, okay John, if you say so. Money has nothing to do with it

I suppose the truth will be apparent once the models from the the Lantern Festival hit retail. Then we can judge from the price can't we?

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Yes, okay John, if you say so. Money has nothing to do with it

I suppose the truth will be apparent once the models from the the Lantern Festival hit retail. Then we can judge from the price can't we?

I do say so, based on a straight reading of what Adam wrote, and how I perceive the product, thanks. Also, if you just engage your brain, you'd recognize the difference between "based primarily on money" and "nothing to do with it". Maybe you should think about it, because those aren't the only two possibilities.

If the models are sold and packaged exactly as the KS1 Lantern Festival, perhaps. But I doubt that is what Adam will do, based on what Adam wrote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Edit: I'm genuinely interested.

Also, if you're going to post this, then you should mean it.

Otherwise, it exposes you to be an even greater money-grubbing hypocrite than what you accuse Adam of being.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Looks like his mouth wrote a cheque his wallet was not willing to cash.

For all the blather about art and artistic integrity all of poots decisons can be traced to his bottom line.

Fully expect all the completed models from the lantern festival paid for by this KS to appear in the next KS for 3x the price.

I will not be backing the next KS this one was that late I had got married and started a family by the time it even started to deliver. I then got gouged for additional postage due to poots costs being 3 years out of date.
Finally refund or not poots failed to complete this KS .

It seems to come down to -
Artistic integrity which causes delays or additonal costs to backer = Good

Artistic integrity which costs Poot's $,cash or reduces his potential future profits = Bad

This KS has shown me that poots is either incompetent or has the scruples of GW and as such I will not be risking money on an uncertain return at an uncertain time in the future.

That's a fething crock of gak. Adam subsidized KD:M with the sales of resins, in order to deliver a superior product that met his vision. He probably overran the budget (and subsidized it) to the tune of $250k. That's why we paid $90 for a $400 game. I bet it wasn't until a few months ago that he broke even on KD:M, where a CMoN KS would have netted a 5-10% profit.

Tell you what though, you can use your $45 Lantern Festival refund to buy my Robotech Tactics MAC-II Monster ($40) and $5 worth of Wave 2 Stretch Goals, and see what real incompetence and unscrupulous behavior looks like. C'mon, do it!

Sorry not sure what your lack of due diligence to have given that buch of incompetents cash in advance has to do with me not being happy about poots taking my cash for 5 years then returning it hoping I will back the next KS for the same item at 3-4x the price.

First, I was aware of Palladium being stupid, but I was hoping it was just a conduit for Ninja Division. I was wrong about that.

Second, KD:M was funded January 7 of 2013. It is currently November 2013. Only 3-odd years have passed, not "5 years" as you've claimed.

Third, the KS TOS says that he either delivers as promised or refunds your money. He refunded ALL of your money, which is more than I can say for the fether behind Robotech Tactics. Or any number of other failed / failing KS projects.

Finally, however he chooses to sell those items, that's his business. If you choose not to back it, that's on you, and your oversized sense of entitlement.



W

He's been up front for months about the design issues with the Lantern Festival - I suspect if it wasn't for those issues it really would have been included in the wave with the rest of the expansions. I'm sure looking at the balance sheet helps with making the call to cancel it, but does anyone really doubt his commitment to the game above all else? He probably would have saved himself a ton of money if he had scaled back the base game during development. He could have done that and still technically met the KS commitments, but he didn't, because he's a bit of a nut. To castigate him as simply profit obsessed now demonstrates a bit of a short memory.

I'm disappointed, sure, but considering the amount I paid for the game + all expansions vs. what it goes for now, it seems churlish to complain. Besides, it was $45, not a marriage.

Fortunately, if you're that displeased, there is the perfect way to express it - just don't back the next KS.

It's a tad disappointing, but I'll evaluate KD-KS2 on its own merit.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
First, I was aware of Palladium being stupid, but I was hoping it was just a conduit for Ninja Division. I was wrong about that.

Second, KD:M was funded January 7 of 2013. It is currently November 2013. Only 3-odd years have passed, not "5 years" as you've claimed.

Third, the KS TOS says that he either delivers as promised or refunds your money. He refunded ALL of your money, which is more than I can say for the fether behind Robotech Tactics. Or any number of other failed / failing KS projects.

Finally, however he chooses to sell those items, that's his business. If you choose not to back it, that's on you, and your oversized sense of entitlement.



W

Well if we are bringing in KS tos then surely your sense of entitlement regarding Robotech not delivering is just as large as mine as they have delivered something's and are "working" on the rest.

Look if your happy to take a golden shower of poots and back again that is your prerogative however I backed poots for somthing he offered, at a price he offered for somthing that he made a number of posts on during the campaign, he was then more than happy to take the cash for close to 4 years.

I suspect that the refund was provided as much to allow him to run the next KS without bad publicity(see prodos) as much as it was about his bottom line.

Honestly from your description of events and circumstances if you belived that and still back his next KS then thats weirder than me backing it. As from your point of view he is a terrible business man with little grasp of running a KS.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Yes, okay John, if you say so. Money has nothing to do with it

I suppose the truth will be apparent once the models from the the Lantern Festival hit retail. Then we can judge from the price can't we?

I do say so, based on a straight reading of what Adam wrote, and how I perceive the product, thanks. Also, if you just engage your brain, you'd recognize the difference between "based primarily on money" and "nothing to do with it". Maybe you should think about it, because those aren't the only two possibilities.

If the models are sold and packaged exactly as the KS1 Lantern Festival, perhaps. But I doubt that is what Adam will do, based on what Adam wrote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Edit: I'm genuinely interested.

Also, if you're going to post this, then you should mean it.

Otherwise, it exposes you to be an even greater money-grubbing hypocrite than what you accuse Adam of being.

Oh, but I did mean it. I'll just have to accept that it makes me a "money-grubbing hypocrite".

Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about, I guess I'm just not "engaging my brain".

I sometimes find your overly-aggressive argumentative ways to be amusing, but I guess i'm just not in the right frame of mind tonight. My bad!

double post

Hmm.. kinda shocked.. but not really surprised.. I guess I've set my standards really low for KS projects, to the point that it's like gambling, except with stuff I actually love... miniatures and things made of cardboard!

Alas, USD is worth more than CAD so... win?
...
....
.....
:(

While very disappointed by the cancellation, I find I cannot muster any actual anger. Holding aside that the product I did receive was in excess of what I imagined I'd get when I backed the campaign in 2013, from the outset the result of "refund with an explanation" was defined as an acceptable (if not wholly satisfactory) outcome. That's been given, and while the collector in me still wanted to get the models, I'm not sure I need more things lying around with no purpose so I don't think getting them without the promised rules would have really been what I wanted in the long-term. Mileage may vary there naturally.

Also I'm sure cost was a major driving factor, but I do think that the things not working for what he wanted played into it just as much. Adam seems to be very much the artiste who will dump massively more than is needed into a project that fits his vision, and pull the plug at the 11th hour on something that doesn't; I've seen nothing in his behavior to contradict that opinion. Likely looking down the road the business calculus of "why sell for $45 what I can sell for $150+" could factor in as well, but even if it does then so long as the backers have been made whole I can't bring up any vitriol for it. Remembering that he put in his own money (I want to say in an interview at GenCon '15 it was mentioned that it was about $750k, but memory fades), I just can't buy the "he's selling us things we paid for" argument; it looks like one of those "it feels good to think but doesn't actually hold up" positions to me.

While a very sour note to end the campaign on, looking back across the entire project the only things I really find fault with are the (continued) lack of official assembly instructions/ published document of parts mislabeled and the manner in which the shipping was handled for the expansions where there was very little notice given. With the benefit of full hindsight, outside of the obvious of not ordering the Lantern Festival I'm not sure I'd really do anything significantly different as regards this project. With knowledge of how things would eventually turn out I'd actually have probably spent a bit more.

So while I wouldn't say I'm particularly happy with these latest circumstances, I'll likely be supporting their next KS project unless something else changes in the interim.

Whole lotta folks looking for bad intentions where there aren't any.

Don't think there are bad intentions, but I think he handled things pretty poorly.

A lot of people are cutting him slack because "we got such a great deal." Not all of us.

I pledged for two expansions and one add on. That's it. The Dragon King, the Lantern Festival and 5 Kingsmen. I paid a fair amount on top of my pledge for shipping. Then I paid $17 more for the Dragon King's shipping. I'm not so wowed by my epic savings. I'm not so sure I trust him not to pull the same hidden fees game if I pledge for the (more expensive) Lantern Festival in the next KS.