Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Brymm wrote:
I'd love to see the math on Crowe, but I bet he eats it in 2 rounds- or less.

Abbadon Vs Crowe
Abbadon will take Crowe's lunch money without even blinking. Crowe will strike first, and if hes lucky he will do one wound to Abbadon. Abbadon will then do massive overkill on Crowe.
Crowe's best option is to use Heroic Sacrifice after his lunch money was taken to kick Abbadon in the jimmies. At least that way they both go down.

Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 8 = 75% chance to hit (with hatred)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Crowe has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.

55.00% × 77.77% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.25, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.44, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.48, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.53, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.58, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 13 attacks × 16.67% = 0.63 equals ~2.92 unsaved wounds first turn.

Crowe:
WS 8 vs. WS 7 = 66.66% chance to hit,
Crowe will wound Abbadon on a 5+, or 33.33%
All wounds will be rending, so Abbadon will be using his 4++ save.

66.66% × 33.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = ~.33 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will barely notice Crowe.

If Horus Heresy fluff is something to go by, an imperator titan kick should be enough to wound him.

But really, I think the best way to deal with him is to either blast him to oblivion, or feed him.

As mentioned, Swarmlord is the ultimate CC unit. Stick him with one LW tyrant guard for maximum face wreckage. But really, he's the main man for challenges.

I guess I can't just throw old Castellian Crowe at abby XD (since you aren't couting stuff like heroic sacrifice I take it)

But for fun, can you do one with a generic GK liby with a warding staff, brain mines, and just luckily got precognition as one of his powers?

 labmouse42 wrote:
I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.

It makes little difference in most cases. Assuming Abbadon always uses Drach'nyen, he will average ~0.88 wounds per turn he's in control of himself, so ~0.44 wounds in total (increase to ~0.54 on the charge). Meanwhile, the Overlord should manage ~0.63 by himself (~0.83 on the charge), plus ~0.08 wounds per turn Abbadon is in control from Drach'nyen's rebellion (which per the FAQ would not trigger on MSS attacks), plus an average 0.25 wounds each turn Abbadon is successfully shackled.

0.63 base wounds + (0.08 rebellion + 0.25 MSS) × 50% probability (since each event is mutually exclusive of the other) equals ~0.79 wounds (~1.00 on the charge) in total to Abbadon each turn, which should lay him out in five rounds of combat, whilst Abbadon requires six rounds to cut down the Overlord. However, note that if Abbadon gets the charge off on the Overlord instead, his higher initiative will actually allow him to (statistically) win the fight before the Overlord can finish him off.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Abbadon Vs St. Celestine Mathhammer

Actually, your copy and paste job (what's Lysander doing in St. Celestine's stuff?) aside, some of your math is off. St. Celestine will almost certainly be getting the charge off on Abby with her greater movement and all, so you forgot to factor in her HoW attack and her 6 attacks on the charge. Furthermore, St. Celestine can (and half the time) will get back up to do it again to Abbadon. She will most certainly lose the fight in the short run but she may win the war in the long run. Also, unless I'm misunderstanding, you didn't factor in the extra hits she, or anyone, would get against Abby when he does roll a 1 for his Daemon weapon. So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
I'd love to see the math on Crowe, but I bet he eats it in 2 rounds- or less.

Abbadon Vs Crowe
Abbadon will take Crowe's lunch money without even blinking. Crowe will strike first, and if hes lucky he will do one wound to Abbadon. Abbadon will then do massive overkill on Crowe.
Crowe's best option is to use Heroic Sacrifice after his lunch money was taken to kick Abbadon in the jimmies. At least that way they both go down.

Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 8 = 75% chance to hit (with hatred)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Crowe has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.

55.00% × 77.77% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.25, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.44, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.48, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.53, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.58, plus
75.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 13 attacks × 16.67% = 0.63 equals ~2.92 unsaved wounds first turn.

Crowe:
WS 8 vs. WS 7 = 66.66% chance to hit,
Crowe will wound Abbadon on a 5+, or 33.33%
All wounds will be rending, so Abbadon will be using his 4++ save.

66.66% × 33.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = ~.33 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will barely notice Crowe.

crowe would wound on 4+. Rends allow you to wound things you cannot normally wound. AKA str3 razowings who have rending can wound wraithlords on a 6.
crowe rends on 4+ so he wounds on 4+ or better. Against abby he wounds on 4+. Still barely notice him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Abbadon Vs St. Celestine Mathhammer

Actually, your copy and paste job (what's Lysander doing in St. Celestine's stuff?) aside, some of your math is off. St. Celestine will almost certainly be getting the charge off on Abby with her greater movement and all, so you forgot to factor in her HoW attack and her 6 attacks on the charge. Furthermore, St. Celestine can (and half the time) will get back up to do it again to Abbadon. She will most certainly lose the fight in the short run but she may win the war in the long run. Also, unless I'm misunderstanding, you didn't factor in the extra hits she, or anyone, would get against Abby when he does roll a 1 for his Daemon weapon. So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!

you cant use the greater movement AND get hammer of wrath. It's one or the other.

dues should happen in a vacuum, charging makes things difficult. Drazhar can be str5 with pain tokens and the charge, but you cannot guarentee the charge.

Too bad Abby is in a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name Sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or prince in the boon table.

What have I learned from his thread?

Shoot Abbadon. Shoot him again. Then shoot him some more. Assault him with large cheap units to tar pit him. I wonder how many death company and with what combination of fittings it would take to bring him down?

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad Abby is a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or price in the boon table.

What you do in that case is park Abbadon with a squad of CSM. I perfer plague marines for the blight gernades.

Every turn, challange with the PM champion so Abbadon can do work on the squad itself.
I believe this is best described in the wobbly model syndrome comic




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!

Sorry man, Celestine just don't have have the hits. Even if every round she got her HoW and an extra attack from charging, she just does not do enough damage to kill Abbadon.

ICs can be really good at specific roles. Celestine's is finding a lone squad and tearing them to itty bitty pieces. She is the best objective contest-er in the game. She makes a unit of Serephim hell on heels by giving them hit and run.

She is not a huge beatstick by herself though. She will bounce off some ICs like Lysander and Abbadon.

Mephiston or Sanguinor?

Sanguinor has a lot of special rules to take out a specific character, and Mephiston, is, well, Mephiston.

Mephiston can't penetrate 2+ armor and neither can sanguinor actually. All the BA special characters are bad, except maybe Tycho.

Martel732 wrote:
Mephiston can't penetrate 2+ armor and neither can sanguinor actually. All the BA special characters are bad, except maybe Tycho.

That's why I brought up the 2+ save in the OP.

Armor saves and AP values are not like 'to hit' and 'to wound' values. They don't scale linearly.
Instead armor values are an 'all or nothing' value. Your either soaking 66.66% of the damage with your MEQ, or your taking 100% of it.
Cover saves/Invulns simply give your model a lower threshold once the AP is breached. In most cases this new cap is much higher, like 2+/4++. Even a difference of 2+/3++ is literally twice the damage delivered. That's due to the “Rule of Resilience” I talked more about here

As such, any IC sitting with a 2+ save is highly resistant to tons of other ICs in the game. Mephiston may be the lord of death, but hes going to bounce off Ghazghkull until he gets an upgrade to his force sword.

In a similar fashion, AP2 weapons are awesome in the hands of ICs, because they open up that 2+ window. A wolf lord riding a thunderpuppy wielding a LC will be owned by Azrael. Give that same wolf lord a power fist, and suddenly Azrael is not having such a good day.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad Abby is a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or price in the boon table.

The overwhelming majority of results on the Boon table are good things...

And he is far from "screwed" if he rolls a prince on the boon table. He is overwhelmingly more likely to take a wound from Drach'nyen than he is to roll a bad result on the boon table, and he is dramatically more likely to get a positive result from rolls on the Chaos boon table. Ergo if you fed him Sergeants all day he'd just get even stronger.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mephiston can't penetrate 2+ armor and neither can sanguinor actually. All the BA special characters are bad, except maybe Tycho.

That's why I brought up the 2+ save in the OP.

Armor saves and AP values are not like 'to hit' and 'to wound' values. They don't scale linearly.
Instead armor values are an 'all or nothing' value. Your either soaking 66.66% of the damage with your MEQ, or your taking 100% of it.
Cover saves/Invulns simply give your model a lower threshold once the AP is breached. In most cases this new cap is much higher, like 2+/4++. Even a difference of 2+/3++ is literally twice the damage delivered. That's due to the “Rule of Resilience” I talked more about here

As such, any IC sitting with a 2+ save is highly resistant to tons of other ICs in the game. Mephiston may be the lord of death, but hes going to bounce off Ghazghkull until he gets an upgrade to his force sword.

In a similar fashion, AP2 weapons are awesome in the hands of ICs, because they open up that 2+ window. A wolf lord riding a thunderpuppy wielding a LC will be owned by Azrael. Give that same wolf lord a power fist, and suddenly Azrael is not having such a good day.

This is why at 175 pts, Tycho has some utility. He straight up ignores armor. But he's still far down the beat stick list. But he's got sternguard ammo in a combi melta and gives the whole army LD10.

Its kinda a mote point. How many special charcters would dare to accept challenge from Abaddon? Most would just feed him a sergeant.

That's true. But it's still an interesting theoretical discussion.

Well this certainly is very interesting...

Dark Angels Interrorgator Chaplain
Wargear:
Power Armour/Displacer Field (3+/3++)
Space Marine Bike (T5)
Crozius Arcanum / Mace of Redemption (+3 Str AP3) - Bane of the traitor (AP2 vs CSM), Blind, Concussive.
Shroud of Heroes (FNP)
Digital Weapons (reroll 1 failed wound roll per round of combat ignore this, I've it in the post as the next post comments on it, but it's useless as this guy has preferred enemy csm)
Melta bombs (To pop open his LR and challenge the despoiler)
Porta Rack (So after he kills Abaddon, he gains fear & can use Abaddons teleport homers and locator beacons for the pallbearers)
Frag & Krak grenades


Special rules:
IC, Zealot & Inner Circle (Preferred Enemy CSM / Fearless).

With a lucky warlord roll he'll have furious charge too.

If anyone is counting he's 250 points, without those digital weapons which are useless for him (that does however count the other useless items; melta bombs and porta rack).

MAJOR EDIT: So I had this as a Company Master on bike (with Articifer armour and a storm shield for 2+/3++ at T5) but it was bugging me in my head. So as per my suspicions the company master can't have a bike, which means I've had to change this to an Interrorgator Chaplain as the T5 is kind of key to prevent his ID, I would also note this means that displacer field would make for a really annoying combat if this guy scatters more than 3" away from Abaddon, nevertheless I would run it for the 3++. If that's too complicated he comes with a Rosarius.

Another Contender worth considering would be Sammael. His only real drawbacks being S4 I5. He's got the AP2, a 3+/4++ and would strike with 2CCW for the +1A. Though I doubt Sammy would win really.

Oh yeah! Tycho has digital weapons, too! He's definitely the least fail of the BA special characters now.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the following as a contender vs Abbadon:

Thunderlord, RA, TH, SS, WTN, SotB

I know statistically Abbadon will win this fight, but its a hell of a close fight all things considered.

 derpyhooves72 wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the following as a contender vs Abbadon:

Thunderlord, RA, TH, SS, WTN, SotB

I know statistically Abbadon will win this fight, but its a hell of a close fight all things considered.

If SotB = saga of the beastslayer, I'd say the thunderlord wins more often than not.

Abaddon rocks!....


....but he still has to watch out for Mindshackle Scarabs!





Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, why shouldn't we include Swarmylord, Crowe, Mephiston and the Sanguinor into this conversation? IC or not, you know we all live for the epic duels between these ultra-badasses. It's like saying Michael Jordan is the best basketball player and I am not including Lebron James because he's only got 1 ring. You know everyone wants to compare James to Jordan.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh yeah! Tycho has digital weapons, too! He's definitely the least fail of the BA special characters now.

Did you miss the part where Abbaddon loses weapon skill, initiative, attack and a wound just for Dante showing up?

Did your attack calculation include the fact that both his weapons are specialist weapons? (2 specialists = +1 attack)

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its kinda a mote point. How many special charcters would dare to accept challenge from Abaddon? Most would just feed him a sergeant.

The problem is 'what happens after your sergeant is dead?'. Lets say your assaulted by Abbadon + 30 fearless cultists. Your IC will mow through a few cultists. The only good that means is that you can't fall back out of assault as you won the combat! The next round, your IC has to step up to the plate, or hide until the rest of his squad is eaten.
Any character by himself also must accept.

jy2 wrote:BTW, why shouldn't we include Swarmylord, Crowe, Mephiston and the Sanguinor into this conversation? IC or not, you know we all live for the epic duels between these ultra-badasses. It's like saying Michael Jordan is the best basketball player and I am not including Lebron James because he's only got 1 ring. You know everyone wants to compare James to Jordan

Of the non ICs, the swarmlord and black mace CSM will take Abbadons lunch money. Mephiston will bounce off the 2+ armor. Ill check out Sanguinor as well. Crowe's best chance is to use Heroic Sacrifice while hes being gibbed.

My GK liby with warding staff + brain mines + precognition will gladly accept that challenge from abby.

* Proceed to fight for more rounds than can exist in a game *

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its kinda a mote point. How many special charcters would dare to accept challenge from Abaddon? Most would just feed him a sergeant.

That's why you challenge with your cultist champion and then use abaddon to mow down your opponents squad. Abaddon is a champion of chaos and must always challenge but hes ok with another epic champion such as a cultist champ getting the glory instead, hes a champion of chaos too after all (fairs fair).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
My GK liby with warding staff + brain mines + precognition will gladly accept that challenge from abby.

Abadon uses talon of horus S8, Shred, he rerolls 1 to hit you as he has preferred enemy (this assumes you charge him)
Attacks 5
Hits 3.333333333
Rerolled 1s that hit 0.555555556
Total Hits 3.888888889
Wounds 3.240740741
Rerolled 1s when wounding 0.540123457
Total wounds 3.780864198
Instagibbs 0.630144033

So on average you are going to get instagibbed by his S8 talon in turn 2 of the challenge despite your 2+ invulnerable.

Precognition is 1 ability in 6 so relying on that seems like a bad idea. At that point your more likely to kill yourself with perils than die to melee attacks.

I reckon lelith hesperax as a chance, may not be the best of chances, but a chance all the same....

Which is better against abaddon? (by this I mean last longer - not win. Wondering about the best character to try and sandbag him with for the eldar)

A corsair prince with a 2++
Or eldrad with a 3++

(with fortune)

Would Yriel do enough damage to be worth a random charge?
He's I7 with damage on a 2+ that ignores armour saves. Again with fortune.

We already know the Avatar would go down, the only phoenix with an inv only has ap3.
The only AP2 I7 character after that is Fuegan, and he doesn't get anywhere near doing much to abaddon because he's got 4 attacks base.
I1 lets Karandras down.

And by the looks of this, we can't ally in anyone to beat him up for us. So far it's only nids and chaos that'll take him.

Abadon uses talon of horus S8, Shred, he rerolls 1 to hit you as he has preferred enemy (this assumes you charge him)
Attacks 5
Hits 3.333333333
Rerolled 1s that hit 0.555555556
Total Hits 3.888888889
Wounds 3.240740741
Rerolled 1s when wounding 0.540123457
Total wounds 3.780864198
Instagibbs 0.630144033

So on average you are going to get instagibbed by his S8 talon in turn 2 of the challenge despite your 2+ invulnerable.

Precognition is 1 ability in 6 so relying on that seems like a bad idea. At that point your more likely to kill yourself with perils than die to melee attacks.

even with 1/6 chance, you are allowed to make him a psyker lv 3, so you can get a few tries at least for the power. 16.64% per dice, roll 3, have 50% ish chance to get the power.

we're using theoritical fights here so I'm assuming I already have precognition while challenging or I'd not bother of course. Also, brain mines will potentially cause abby to not even attack at all kind of like a MSS but doesn't make him hit himself. I think that'd up my chances at least a bit.