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Sounds useful for air Marshall’s as well?

Frangible bullets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet

Yeah, frangible bullets. I think their uses during hostage situations is minimal at best. Their main application is as target ammunition that won't cause as much damage to targets at the range.

Most hostages that get injured by their rescuers aren't getting hit by ricochets.

Got to go trap shooting this weekend and was able to try out an Ithaca Model 37. I know Ithaca's are supposed to be a reliable gun but I could not get it to reliably cycle/feed into the chamber after the first shot, likely caused by the magazine spring being too weak. Any Ithaca owners run into this problem before?

A question regarding the season 11 opener of The Walking Dead.

Heroes visit a military base, and enter a room full of sleeping Zombies, which were formerly servicemen.

Presumably they’ve been in there since the fall, which would be roughly 8 years before.

Some of the guns work, some don’t. Is that particularly realistic? There’s no sign of the building being damaged, so no particular concern over the elements. My gut is saying that provide the firearm was previously properly maintained (cleaned, oiled etc) then 8 years lying around shouldn’t mess with it too much?

They’re M-16s, and possibly a colt pistol? I’m not terribly knowledgeable on makes and models, so go easy if I’ve made a rookie mistake!

So long as there's no excessive moisture, they probably should run just fine, especially if its in an armory which likely has some temperature control measures. Most of an M16 is also aluminum beyond the bolt, barrel, springs and fire control bits, so its probably just as simple as rack the bolt, if it opens, it fires.

The m16 has a rep for being a bit finicky about maintenance (they're machining tolerances were too tight early on) (and, personal option, would be next to useless against Z), but the M1911s should have been fine. A trove of AKs would have been much better.

Ammunition, however, might be more hit or miss, but not after only 8 years.

A properly stored firearm(clean and lubricated to combat readiness at minimum) of any kind should work just fine no matter how long its been sitting assuming its been in a moderately sealed environment, which that would qualify. Even a finnicky Vietnam era M16 would be fine. Those only had issues with actual combat conditions, like getting dropped in mud.

Now if the guns had been gathered by other survivors and stored somewhere else for 8 years then you could potentially have an improper storage situation. But even guns in that situation could probably be usable after getting cleaned. About the only way you could make a gun utterly useless would be to let it sit in salt water for a few months. But even that would only ruin the parts made of steel, the receiver itself would be fine.

From what I remember the walking dead is based around Atlanta-ish area? So hot, humid, years with no electricity, and the occasional hurricane. Not the best conditions, but not to horrible.

Finally got back out to the range. Took my 1911, and because I didn't pack nearly enough ammo with me, I ended up renting an AR-15.

I definitely need to get some more work in, I haven't been steadily shooting in years.

The smaller holes (most on the right of the target) are the AR. Big holes are the .45, all from 20 feet.

Being left handed right eye dominant sucks with iron sights on a rifle.

Veldrain wrote:
From what I remember the walking dead is based around Atlanta-ish area? So hot, humid, years with no electricity, and the occasional hurricane. Not the best conditions, but not to horrible.

Yeah, but a military building specifically made for the storage of firearms would be designed to not let in the elements even if there was no power. It might fail after a century or so, but 8 years is nothing.

Humidity is also not a huge issue assuming the firearms were properly lubricated. M16s only have a few steel parts anyway. A 1911 might get some surface rust, but as long as the friction surfaces were properly lubed it'll still work just fine. 1911s are kinda like AKs, very simple and not too fussy.

It was originally Atlanta based, but it’s shifted to Virginia, just a few miles outside of DC.

Its the drama they are going for, but the govt. has had some bad runs of ammo in the past. During the Korean War my father checked every round of ammo by shaking before loading it into his aircraft

Wife bought more spinner targets, so yesterday I put in a short post to hang them:



One side is rated for .22, the other handles even the .308 rifles.



Shot about 100 rounds through the Glock yesterday and a couple mags from my newest toy:





I need to take pictures of the archery portion of the range as well. Have 4 3D targets, a turkey, a coyote, a javelin and a buck.

Really jealous of that setup. I wish I owned land I could shoot on, it must be amazing.

It is nice. I really enjoy having folks come over to shoot so get to share the joy quite a bit. If you're ever in the area, you're welcome to come bust caps.

If I may drag this, temporarily, to pick your brains on 40K analogous weapons - and how that analogy has changed over the years as the 40K background has evolved and changed.

So….this gun certainly looks the part of an Autocannon.




It’s also anti-tank, and self loading (which at this scale I understand to be equivalent to semi-automatic?) which pretty much matches the 40K description of the autocannon.

Until, dear friend….until we delve right down deep into the earliest days of 40K weapon lore - where the autocannon was noted for a frankly astounding rate of fire - the sheer number of shots it could kick out defeating armour by delivering dozens if not hundreds of rounds with accuracy to the same rough area - they’d literally batter an armoured target into the dust.

Assault Cannons? Yeah… originally multi barrelled rotary versions of the autocannon, which is frankly terrifying.

So what do you think the modern allegory lies?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Assault Cannons? Yeah… originally multi barrelled rotary versions of the autocannon, which is frankly terrifying.

So what do you think the modern allegory lies?

Autocannons are a real thing that actually exists. The Hispano 20 mm is probably a close analogue to the 40k version, though I'm sure there's a closer match out there.

Breaking down the word itself, Autocannon is an abbreviation of Auto-loading Cannon. IE: Self-loading cannon. Self-loading with any weapon just means that the weapon uses excess energy from firing to load the next round into the chamber instead of needing to be manually cycled. So really any weapon of sufficiently large size to be called a cannon that is also self-loading could technically be called an Autocannon. In the real world, it is a catch-all term for a self-loading weapon with a caliber somewhere between small arms and an artillery piece/tank main armament. It could be a weapon capable of full automatic fire OR only semi-automatic fire.

The various forms that Autocannons are showed in 40k are similar to many real world guns, though each of the real world analogues are quite different from each other.

The manportable Autocannons we see Imperial Guard lugging around are roughly equivalent to all of the Anti-tank rifles or even small field guns of the late 1800s/early 1900s. The vehicle mounted ones are more like a 20mm Oerlikon. Really, any modern 20-40mm cannon is basically a 40k autocannon, and there are a lot of different weapons of that caliber. They're used as primary weapons for APCs/IFVs, secondary batteries for naval vessels, coaxial weapons for MBTs, etc...

Assault Cannons are just an M134 Minigun.




The various guns that are all lumped as Autocannons in 40k really deserve to be differentiated since in reality they would act a lot differently, but the rules don't exactly have that level of granularity. And of course 40k lore, especially early on, blurred the line between Assault Cannons and Autocannons. Which IIRC early on what we now call Assault Cannons were once included in the general weapon family of Autocannons, basically being to autocannons what multi-lasers are to lasguns/lascannons.

And really, any sort of anti-tank/anti-material rifle would fit nicely into the Autocannon statline. They're powerful enough to be a threat to light vehicles, but not really much of a threat to truly armored vehicles.

AegisFate wrote:Most of an M16 is also aluminum beyond the bolt, barrel, springs and fire control bits

Grey Templar wrote:M16s only have a few steel parts anyway.

This is a 'technically yes, but actually no' sort of thing.

All the critical parts in a milspec AR are steel. That's the bolt, bolt carrier (inc gas key), hammer, trigger (+ disconnector), auto sear, all the FCG springs, cross pins, barrel, gas block, gas tube, mag release, bolt release, and selector switch. Almost all of the minor parts are steel too- dust cover, stock latching pin, grip screw, castle nut, end plate, buffer retainer, flash hider, peel washer.

As far as aluminum goes it's really just the upper and lower receivers, the buffer tube, and the charging handle, which are all fairly low-stress parts that aren't particularly vulnerable to corrosion in the first place. It's generally not the receiver rusting that kills a gas-operated rifle; it's the bolt head no longer fitting in the locking lugs (or worse, fitting and then failing), the gas system coming apart or getting plugged, or the FCG freezing up.

On top of all that, even 7075 isn't immune to corrosion, as bare aluminum will turn white and passivate if exposed to humidity; it's just slower than steel oxidation because aluminum oxide is much more stable. Preventing this is what hardcoat anodization is for- just as steel parts are typically parkerized (phosphated), blued, browned, painted, case-hardened, electroplated, or otherwise sealed to keep something in between the bare metal and the environment. And since it's aluminum and steel touching you also get galvanic corrosion if bare metal is exposed, and that's a whole other can of worms.

So ARs aren't particularly resilient against functional degradation due to rust, although they do hold up well to cosmetic oxidation. They still need proper protection (maintenance of the parkerized finish on exterior parts plus oil or CLP on the BCG and FCG) and a controlled environment to last. That said, I do agree that a government armory should be able to maintain a suitable environment for at least a couple of years, and then it'll be a slow decline after that. But leave an AR out in salty humid air, or worse in an alkaline environment, and they'll go to crap as quickly as anything else.

If anyone else has watched that scene, could they chip in with whether the guns that fail to fire are simply out of ammo, or a bit buggered?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If anyone else has watched that scene, could they chip in with whether the guns that fail to fire are simply out of ammo, or a bit buggered?

It was likely do to a shortage of ammo, although it could be either/or. In that specific scenario, when you have multiple backups within arm's reach I'd say getting a new gun is better than spending the time identifying and correcting any malfunction that shows up.

One thing I was wondering, in that scene there was a helicopter with belt-fed door guns. I'm thinking that getting up into that might have been a decent choice too.

Dunno on the helicopter.

I see where you’re coming from. But would our heroes know what to do if one of those big bits of Dakka was jammed or needed cycling etc? Given it was a distinctly Brown Trouser Experience, probably best to stick with smaller weapons you’re familiar with? They’re all credible survivors at this point (even if there were past points where one did wonder how come you’re not Zombie chow? in the past!

Though for those who haven’t seen it, they were there to scavenge up MRE, and not shooters.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno on the helicopter.

I see where you’re coming from. But would our heroes know what to do if one of those big bits of Dakka was jammed or needed cycling etc? Given it was a distinctly Brown Trouser Experience, probably best to stick with smaller weapons you’re familiar with? They’re all credible survivors at this point (even if there were past points where one did wonder how come you’re not Zombie chow? in the past!

Though for those who haven’t seen it, they were there to scavenge up MRE, and not shooters.

My plan would have been to dangle from the rope for a couple hours and spend my time just out of zombie reach. I'd take my time and spear a few hundred in the head. If they start to pile up, yell up to the roof to have them raise you up a bit. Time wasn't that critical really. Safe and steady if the course of action in the Zombie future. Heck, they did basically this as a plan when they were in the train tunnels, and they did it without the ability to know what was ahead, who/what was sneaking up from behind, and without the ability to quickly get away.

Belt-feds aren't terribly complicated to operate, and its reasonable that at this point they would have come across a few to tinker with and so might be familiar with how they work. But they are more time consuming to load and they'd waste a lot of ammo though so ignoring them isn't implausible. Given time I wouldn't leave them to waste of course, ammo and guns are ammo and guns after all.

Just ordered today a cz 457 in 17 hmr with laminate thumbhole stock. Smart looking gun. My wife’s cousin has one and I was impressed. I’m going to use it mainly for night time fox hunts so will be on the lookout for a decent night scope.
Here’s the gun my wife’s cousin has. I think the scope he has is a little on the heavy side.

That is very neat looking.

What range do you hunt foxes at?

Very rarely over 150yards usually 80 to 100. I’m a farmer and most of my ground is hilly and I’ve lots of forestry. I thought of going for a 223 but at the minute it would probably sit with the police licensing for 10 months to a year and I can’t be bothered with the wait.

TL;DR how to buy gun?

Longer explanation: I have some shooting experience (mostly thanks to my in laws) and own a pistol myself, but I'm looking to expand my collection.

My Sig Sauer Sp2022 I bought via Calguns, arranged to meet the seller in person at an FFL to do the paperwork and have the FFL hold it the mandatory waiting period.

Now I live in PA and I kinda don't know the best way to buy. Do I go to a store and just browse around? I kinda feel weird about that. If I buy online and ship it to an FFL do I notify them ahead of time or do they just hold onto it or what?

There's also gun shows, but I'm wary of buying a lemon. My non-expert feeling is that much like miniatures when you're buying from individuals rather than stores you're now open to the possibility of much worse (or better) deals that are more dependent on having specialized knowledge.

What sort of thing are you after - Brand new, in-production, or a crusty old military-surplus antique?