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 Grey Templar wrote:


There is also just more awareness around the fact that shotguns are actually harder to use. More recoil, operator error under stress is more likely with a manually operated weapon, etc... The "spread" on a shotgun is not really a thing at the ranges you'd be involved in with a break in, so there isn't any greater accuracy with them either.

Really the only advantage a shotgun has over a rifle is that you will 100% down someone if you hit them(assuming buckshot), but 2-3 quick plugs with a rifle will do the same and have all the extra advantages of more ammo, easier to use, etc...

The home defense Fudd-lore around shotguns, while cute and funny, is ultimately not helpful. The only shotgun I would ever grab would be my DP12 or something like a Saiga or AR shotgun. DP12 at least gives me 2 shots on the first engagement before I need to pump, and a semi-auto shotgun will be much easier to use than a pump.

This is where I stand on things.

I compete in 3gun. I've seen far too many people flat out miss a target they're expecting and know the layout of with a shotgun that it isn't even funny.

Jamming them up from short stroking them, the speed of reloading them, killing them by getting the shells jammed in the loading gate, recoil management...

The fact shotguns can't (or shouldn't be) stored patrol ready because they aren't drop safe means you have to manipulate the shotgun in the most user sensitive way is it's drawback.

Shotguns are cheap. If you are on a super tight budget they can be a good thing. However they aren't pickup and go weapons. You need to know what your doing.

I personally like the 556 SBR with a suppressor and 20rd mags. Unfortunately this doesn't come cheap. You can switch it out for PCC for extra controllability but then you start sacrificing terminal effect. Quality JHPs can offset this a bit. If you need to reload a rifle it's quicker and easier than a tube fed shotgun. Also 20>6. While you probably won't NEED to reload either, it is a consideration.

I prefer semi auto rifles over pump shotguns because they can be used one handed and I've had kids that could need controlling in these situations.

I'm also good with a shotgun. This isn't just personal preference. I've won plenty of competitions or at least stages with shotguns. I've got a decent selection of guns in my safe and the last 3 I'll take out are my .22 pistol, my .454 Casual and then my 12 Guage. Any of my 9mms, my .45, my .22 AR, my 9mm PCC and my AK will be my go to.

You need to practice with whatever you decide. I'm confident I can teach a complete noob to run a rifle safer and more effectively than a shotgun and I'm sure they can be persuaded to practice more frequently with a rifle. I shot about 70 rounds of 12 Guage the other day, some light birdshot 26gram #7 and some heavy 3" 00. Like I say I enjoy 12G. I was reluctant to pull the trigger on the 71st round. I can burn 5.55 all day.

Edit - you = a generic one, not you I quoted specifically.

Well said

All seem like solid points.

Does the shotgun need to be 12gauge?

I rarely if ever meet them in 16 gauge or lesser

16 or 20 gauge would be awfully iffy on stopping power. Definitely no issue controlling it, but very hit or miss on actually working.

Even worse the vast majority of 16 or 20 gauge weapons are single or double shot break actions so thats your only chance. I don't actually ever recall seeing or hearing of semi-auto 16 or 20 gauge.

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Browning-Auto-5-Lourd-calibre-16-70-parfait-etat-item-9142062.html

https://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-cz-cal-16-item-11955396.html

made a quick random search and there are some on sale, but really, I never met one.

same with 20 gauge btw.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Got the last parts today and finished up my AR10 build.



Was kinda not fun to shoot with the basic AR15 stock and muzzle device it came with. A proper stock and Apollo muzzle break should help make it very nice indeed.

That is sweet! I've been wanting to do that myself and have struggled with finding the right lower to fit with the upper I'd want as they aren't as standardized as AR-15s. Are yours both DPMS pattern? Do you have any tips on compatibility?

Great posts the past few days and I mostly agree with everything. A few thoughts:

There is definitely a tendency to focus on the guns themselves over actually shooting them. You can find a lot more discussion on that on arfcom but be advised it is pretty much 100% US centric.

I had been using semi auto shotgun for HD purposes (Mossberg 940 Tactical) but some discussions here and elsewhere have been persuasive. I added my Arsenal SAM7 AK loaded with 154g soft point hunting ammo to the HD lineup. That said, different areas have different kinds of threats. I think the shotgun would do the job 99.9% of the time where I am living. If I lived in Aurora CO right now I might be shopping for an M-249.

I agree that an ideal HD gun is either a short barrel rifle or a large format pistol with stabilizing brace. Daniel Defense Mk18 or KRISS Vector (loaded with 26 "flying ashtray" Gold Dots) would be my choice in a vaccuum if I wanted an NFA gun or had more faith in the long term legality of stabilizing braces.

For HD ammo, hollow points in pistol calibers and soft point rifle ammo are probably the best bet. Unless you want to make a high stakes bet on gimmick ammo, bullets/slugs/pellets from any firearm are going to go through multiple walls on a miss. On a hit the soft/hollow points will spend much of their energy inside the target medium where FMJ will icepick through. Rounds designed to tumble on impact might do so in unpredictable ways on a miss.

Using either hunting ammo or the same ammo law enforcement uses can defuse some of those potential legal issues as well. Fortunately in handgun calibers the LE specific ammo is among the best choices. And for .223/5.56, I am close to 100% sure that 62g Federal Fusion, 62g generic Federal "Law Enforcement" bonded soft points and 62g Speer Gold Dots are all the exact same ammo.

There are many low capacity semi-auto hunting shotguns smaller than 12g out there. Not exactly ideal for home defense but certainly better than nothing if thats what you have!

My lower is Aeroprecision. I don't remember where I got the upper, I think I bought it off Gunbroker and I do recall I got it like $100 cheaper than whoever was the mfgr(900 instead of 1k). But yeah they didn't fit at first. I had to grind a few milimeters off the buffer tube backstrap so the charging handle would work. Aeroprecision makes them much much thicker than everybody else it seems.

Also, I've been mucking around with Sim-x ammo lately(one of the local stores carries a lot of it). It's some pretty interesting stuff. Their 9mm hollow points basically ignore soft body armor entirely and just dump energy when they hit soft stuff.

Alright, picture heavy heads up from where i'm at regarding guns atm. I finished refurbishing my mosin nagant as best I could, for the story (can't remember whether I posted that earlier), varnish was scaling off, so I wanted to give a quick sanding to peel what wouldn't hold off, and then appeared that all the varnish peeled off. Which left me in a bit of trouble because either the woods aren't the same or i'm a slow and failed to notice some other cause (well, i'm a slow, that is, but could be just different woods, not quite expert in that regards). I then proceeded to blank the butt and to re oil it with the same oil. I forgot to make a before photo, but while they don't look completly similar now, at least their closer to matching... The thing is the stock itself is quite battered, and I'm not sure I could have got rid of the stains that blacken most of it. Need to consort with a retired woodworker of mine, sadly couldn't see him in time anyway.

Then, you've got the beretta. Shot it, every thing works as intended, except the sights ae just that dark and hard to make out. I'm trying to find fluorescent paint that would help but no luck so far. White, because PAMAS french army pistols had white dots and any other color feels cringe to me. Also, if I ever manage to get a chat with that elderly woodworker I mentionned earlier, I'll ask him for advice on what wood and how to make my own side grips. I waned wooden sidegrips for the style be since i've got a beretta 92 S, and not X nor FS, these are not available from the shelf as far as I looked it up on the internet. But with a bit of insight, pretty sure I can do it myself however meager my skills at wood working are. Besides, if I mess up, that's no big deal becasue the gun won't be damaged in any way. Purely cosmetic, reversible job right here.

Finally, and you can clearly see the scarred.. ahem filed down barrel, I'll have to take care of that 22 single shot rifle. Tired it, pleasure to shoot though. Exctraction is... Manly, to say the least. But joy to shoot nonehteless.
On the menu with that 100 euros training rifle:

fixing the filed area

reshaping the front of the stock that is a bit to square for my liking. Then refinish it because the finish is scarred any way and i'll mess it up while reshaping. Maybe try to make flutes while I'm at it because after all once I started butchering it... ya know.

bending or welding the lever straight (according to what goes best)

reblue the bolt and the barrel after they'll have suffered a session of tig welding or at least lots of heat.

fix the rearsight plate that can't seem to stay in place

add sling attachment points.

I like the stained wood look. Very much conveys it is an old piece but with the recent finish makes it look well cared for.

That's also what I thought: in the end, nice thing the wood is a bit battered because that way even with brand new oil fisnishing it still looks true to the original.

 Grey Templar wrote:
16 or 20 gauge would be awfully iffy on stopping power. Definitely no issue controlling it, but very hit or miss on actually working.

Even worse the vast majority of 16 or 20 gauge weapons are single or double shot break actions so thats your only chance. I don't actually ever recall seeing or hearing of semi-auto 16 or 20 gauge.

We have Beretta semi autos in 20 and 12 gauge. Matching Beretta Blue receivers we got ourselves for Christmas a few years ago (maybe 3). I pulled out the dumb limiter rod to increase capacity. They seem to perform flawlessly.

You can get 20 gauge personal defense rounds, I have a couple boxes for the Judge (cue the wrath of a certain Dakka-ite lol).

EDIT: Dumb and tired after working the chainsaw the last few days sun up to sun down. Obviously the Judge is .410 not 20 gauge.

Duh.

I would have feared a 20 gauge might lack power for the action similar to how that sometumes happen with 22lr plinkers but that's probably a misconception of mine?

 Grey Templar wrote:
My lower is Aeroprecision. I don't remember where I got the upper, I think I bought it off Gunbroker and I do recall I got it like $100 cheaper than whoever was the mfgr(900 instead of 1k). But yeah they didn't fit at first. I had to grind a few milimeters off the buffer tube backstrap so the charging handle would work. Aeroprecision makes them much much thicker than everybody else it seems.

Also, I've been mucking around with Sim-x ammo lately(one of the local stores carries a lot of it). It's some pretty interesting stuff. Their 9mm hollow points basically ignore soft body armor entirely and just dump energy when they hit soft stuff.

Nice, that doesn't seem so bad actually. I was expecting something very hard to fix like the takedown pins being in slightly different spots. I've got a LaRue upper on my AR and couldn't be happier with it, I'd love to get the .308 version but don't want to spend $2700 on the PredatOBR complete rifle.

The ammo is interesting. In general I'm a fan of the monolithic copper stuff but I'm not yet sold on these lightweight varmint style pistol rounds. Those do seem better than the "Civil Defense" brand. On the plus side they seem to go fast enough to create permanent cavities. I'd like to see some drywall tests on them.

The Sim-x basically seems to "explode" on contact with softer tissue. It creates a hideously wide but shallow cavity. In ballistics gel it seems to make a 5-6 inch cavity where the jacket is spread across with a lot of laceration.

In a real target it would basically carve out a fist sized chunk about 3-4 inches deep. This might sound not as good as others, but it's also dumped its entire energy load into the target so there is going to be major internal bleeding 6-8 inches inside. And we're talking low end 5.56 levels of total energy being dumped by a 9mm, so its actual effect on target might be more than 5.56 as that tends to overpenetrate targets and waste a lot of its energy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I would have feared a 20 gauge might lack power for the action similar to how that sometumes happen with 22lr plinkers but that's probably a misconception of mine?

20 gauge is still reasonably powerful. .410 is the lightweight one. No reason either couldn't cycle a gun made for them. I think its more lack of interest than it being difficult to engineer.

You'd have the same challenges that 12 gauge has in semi-autos, but in less popular gauges. Semi-auto shotguns will always be a bit odd, its hard to make them well because shotgun ammo can vary so wildly in its chamber pressures.

Agreed

Got the AR10 dialed in nicely



30ish rounds at 100 meters

Hat Off to you pal!

Yeah, that will do

What scope are you using?

Vortex Crossfire 2, 4x variable

I had it sighted in pretty good out of the box, but when I went to the range two weeks ago all the screws walked themselves out so I had to zero it all over again yesterday. Made sure to really crank it down this time with loctite.

Nice choice - I have a Viper 1-4 PST, but the older style with target rather than capped turrets, which suits the shooting I do better (rundowns from 500-400-300 yards for instance, need to change elevation as you go).

I have a question, from a thread discussing Lasguns.

How much does a standard, NATO 5.56, fully loaded magazine weigh? I’ve got the weight of the round at 12g from Google, but the rest is a bit too “it depends”.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I have a question, from a thread discussing Lasguns.

How much does a standard, NATO 5.56, fully loaded magazine weigh? I’ve got the weight of the round at 12g from Google, but the rest is a bit too “it depends”.

A bit over a pound each, depending on mag type and specific round (30 rounds in the mag).

Cool, ta!

 CptJake wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I have a question, from a thread discussing Lasguns.

How much does a standard, NATO 5.56, fully loaded magazine weigh? I’ve got the weight of the round at 12g from Google, but the rest is a bit too “it depends”.

A bit over a pound each, depending on mag type and specific round (30 rounds in the mag).

*Does some mental translation* so about half a kilo.

So a combat load of 7 mags is about 3.5kg.

Yeah, about a pound. Aluminum mags seem to be ever so slightly lighter than polymer mags, at least the ones I have. You wouldn't notice the difference unless they are empty though.

 Haighus wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I have a question, from a thread discussing Lasguns.

How much does a standard, NATO 5.56, fully loaded magazine weigh? I’ve got the weight of the round at 12g from Google, but the rest is a bit too “it depends”.

A bit over a pound each, depending on mag type and specific round (30 rounds in the mag).

*Does some mental translation* so about half a kilo.

So a combat load of 7 mags is about 3.5kg.

You get 7 mags?!?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I have a question, from a thread discussing Lasguns.

How much does a standard, NATO 5.56, fully loaded magazine weigh? I’ve got the weight of the round at 12g from Google, but the rest is a bit too “it depends”.

A bit over a pound each, depending on mag type and specific round (30 rounds in the mag).

*Does some mental translation* so about half a kilo.

So a combat load of 7 mags is about 3.5kg.

You get 7 mags?!?

Apparently the standard ammo load for a US rifleman, yes.

Was 6 for us if I remember well

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Was 6 for us if I remember well

I should clarify that the US load is apparently 6 carried and 1 in the gun. Was it 6 carried or 6 total for you?